Clonazepam (Klonopin) stops my symptoms almost completely

[LINE]

1. Zeolite spray from Resultsrna
2. r/lipoic acid from Doctor's Best
3. Chlorella from Earth Circle

These are specific products that have been vetted. There is more I can add if you like.

 

[Alvin2]

There is more I can add if you like.

Go for it

 

[Replenished]

Didn't realise there had been so many posts on here since I made the thread. For some reason there were no notifications.

I'm going to be consistent with meditation....when I can find one I actually feel calm doing, at moment if anything meditation feels as though it leads me to analyse the body and feel worse, rather than tune out/relax?

Outside of that, are there any specific brain retraining/nervous system regulating techniques that anyone can recommend? I've tried EFT but it doesn't really do it for me.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

But there must be something in this and why it causes a massive reduction in symptoms for me and many others. How can we harness this?

Klonopin (and you might try finding the numerous negative references to it in these threads, people who haven't been as lucky as you, or maybe just took it as prescribed, and as their Drs instructed them to, which you correctly avoided) was developed by Roche Labs to compete with the then market leader for epilepsy, Dilantin.

When Klonopin failed to deliver the great torrents of cash flow that had been expected, the army of short-skirted, ever-smiling sales reps started whispering to Drs that it had recently been used off-label with great success for anxiety, panic, insomnia, and as a adjunct and assist to anti-d's.

It worked a marvel. Sales soared, the great rivers of cash started flowing, and the rest is history.

Some of it can be read on the headstones of those for whom it was prescribed by, hopefully, well-intended Drs ...

It's an anti-seizure drug, given an elegant little new suit. There may be an answer based in that as to why it works so well to interfere with ME symptoms, there may not. Like most benzos, Klonopin is an effective muscle relaxant, along with being an anti-seizure medication. Interestingly, one of the many side effects of Klonopin is frequent urination, which is one of the symptoms you have that you're using it to treat.

As you noted, it's a benzodiazepine, so it acts immediately on your GABAa receptors. Taken long enough, and in regular doses, it will completely wipe out you endogenous GABA and GABA receptors, and that's where the trouble starts, tho given the way you're taking it at 3 or 4 times a year in a single dose, I dont think you're at risk. Others, tho, may be.

This is a potentially dangerous, even lethal, drug, and should be approached with caution, as with all benzos.

EDIT .... to clarify what might have sounded lke a criticism, but wasn't .... also several typos ... two of them in this sentence alone ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Source Naturals sells GABA lozenges which you let dissolve under the tongue. This will provide the GABA you need to stop the anxiety. Anxiety = low GABA. Easy fix.

Actually, it won't. As other posters have mentioned, oral GABA doesnt cross the BBB, and while there are GABA receptors in other parts of your body, if you've been taking exogenous GABA stimulators like benzos, gabapentin, neurontin, etc, those receptors are probably also down-regulated to the point of invisibility.

So no. No easy fix here.

Supplemental GABA is nothing like a benzo at all. I’ve tried nearly every GABAergic in existence and imo nothing gives the same symptom relief as pharmaceutical benzos.

You're right, which is why benzos are so seductively dangerous. They hit you where GABA lives, then they wipe it out, and as you go deeper and deeper into tolerance withdrawal, your Dr will simply increase your dosage repeatedly until it occurs to him that his license might be in jeopardy, at which point he'll cut you loose like a dead weight in free-fall.

Benzos are mast cell stabilizers. Have you looked into mast cell meds?

That's a really novel approach !!!! It might well be worth trying ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Magnesium also helps to maintain GABA in the synapse along with other nutrients such as B6.

Magnesium blocks the NMDA receptor, which is is major contributor to reducing a GABA/glutamate imbalance and decreasing the effects of excess glutamate in an already overloaded system, assuming that's what the issue is ....

In the case of magnesium, it's used in multiple pathways, so perhaps the first amount you take is going elsewhere and you need more to improve this pathway.

Magnesium, in whatever form your system tolerates best (for me, it's glycinate or bisglycinate), is required for over three hundred isomeric conversions and functions. It's critical in the absorption of Vit D, which will suck up your magnesium stores like a Dyson on steroids .... there's a lot of other stuff, but the main point is that most of us are probably mildly to severely deficient in mag ....

Vitamin D status, B vitamins are complimentary to magnesium. Magnesium is also sensitive to toxins, antioxidants may help with magnesium. Also, could try different forms such as mag glycinate or mag chloride.

Not sure what " .... antioxidants may help with magnesium...." means.

Mag chloride is one of the least desirable forms of mag, particularly if you have issues around salt consumption, like cardiac impairment, TIA's, strokes, etc ....

Mag glycinate has the benefit of being the least bowel-inducing of the mags, so you can take more without spending your life in the bathroom reading bad novels or mentally redesigning, like, your entire life....

EDIT .... for typos. I get sooooo tired of typos ..... and the OCD need to correct them ....

 

[LINE]

Detox can be a complicated thing since there a multitude of pathways involved. For instance, there are endogenous antioxidant systems. This would include production of glutathione, superoxide dismutase and catalase. These are dependent on certain nutrient pathways.

Glutathione may play one of the biggest roles in detoxification and low levels have been implicated in a number of degenerative diseases including CFS. It is a dual acting molecule, besides being involved in detoxification, it is involved in immune system support. It is my belief that when the immune system is attacked then glutathione is being used up which leaves the detoxification support weakened which allows for higher accumulation of toxins., These toxins further weaken the immune response, and a vicious cycle then ensues.

Glutathione is part of the thiol group which also includes methionine, taurine and cysteine. Thiols help detoxify including toxic metals (aluminum, cadmium etc).

I will continue if you like.

 

[LINE]

Actually, it won't. As other posters have mentioned, oral GABA doesnt cross the BBB, and while there are GABA receptors in other parts of your body, if you've been taking exogenous GABA stimulators like benzos, gabapentin, neurontin, etc, those receptors are probably also down-regulated to the point of invisibility.

So no. No easy fix here.

You're right, which is why benzos are so seductively dangerous. They hit you where GABA lives, then they wipe it out, and as you go deeper and deeper into tolerance withdrawal, your Dr will simply increase your dosage repeatedly until it occurs to him that his license might be in jeopardy, at which point he'll cut you loose like a dead weight in free-fall.

That's a really novel approach !!!! It might well be worth trying ....

I guess you will have to convince my neurons that it does not work. I have been using this for 2 years or so with consistent results and good results. I see no risk in attempting something that has minimal risk and cost.

I am not sure if people are quoting medical texts about the BBB but seeing things on paper vs. personal experiences are two different worlds as I have learned by doing countless experiments. (Please don't take this as an assault to your comments, though it does sound a little angry).

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I guess you will have to convince my neurons that it does not work. I

Interpret that any way you want, I'm too tired and dispirited right now to argue ....

I am not sure if people are quoting medical texts about the BBB but seeing things on paper vs. personal experiences are two different worlds as I have learned by doing countless experiments

Yes. I'm quoting from extensive personal experience and trial and error, too. Years worth. Paid for at no little personal cost, but that's how you learn. My respect for 'medical texts' is nil. Once you learn how a lot of the 'research' they cram down the maw of medical believers is done, well, what more can I say.

(Please don't take this as an assault to your comments, though it does sound a little angry).

Why yes, it does. We all have our days, yes? And I'm having one, too, so I'm totally not taking it personally ....

I have no problem with your pursuit of what you've learned works for you,

I just felt the need to let others whose experience might no be so fortunate know that your experience could be the exception, not the rule., and to approach Klonopin cautiously and with respect ..... and not expecting any easy 'saves' or remedials.

Rock on hey !!!

 

[SlamDancin]

So I find this topic fascinating, I think benzos are amazing for what they are. I don’t fully understand the difference but GABA and Benzos bind different sites of the GABAA receptor complex so they have distinct effects. I am interested in trying sublingual GABA as I haven’t tried that route yet but benzos are by far the most effective medication I’ve ever tried for ME symptoms.

 

[Living Dead]

You could try lamotrigine.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I don’t fully understand the difference but GABA and Benzos bind different sites of the GABAA receptor complex so they have distinct effects.

This is dangerous oversimplificaton.

Where benzos bind isnt really the issue, altho they bind to the GABAa site. In the nervous system, benzodiazepines bind exclusively to the GABAar's, the main inhibitory receptors in the brain, and allosterically enhance their responsiveness to GABA, and therein lies their danger and the devastating effects they have on so many who have trusted them and the Drs who prescribed them.

Benzos and GABA do NOT have distinct effects. They have the same effect, except that benzos magnify that, and destroy any hope for the 'natural' effect. It can take years to recover from severe GABA downregulation and the spider web of other effects that benzos have on the CNS and brain.

They artificially stimulate receptors and GABA production, destroying them both gradually. So when you stop taking a benzo, you're left with a system with seriously down-regulated or even non-existent GABA receptors, and seriously non-productive brain GABA.

benzos are by far the most effective medication I’ve ever tried for ME symptoms.

You may change that view when you inevitably either decide, or are forced, to get off them.

Opioids are incredibly effective pain medications, but if you stop taking them, the pain is still there, and often your ability to cope with it is dramatically reduced by the effect of opioid use.

Be careful !!!

 

[Judee]

oral GABA doesnt cross the BBB

I am not sure if people are quoting medical texts about the BBB but seeing things on paper vs. personal experiences

Is it possible that oral GABA wouldn't normally cross the BBB but in diseases like ME/CFS it does because of a compromised BBB??? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11461179/

So if that could maybe be the case, do you think taking exogenous GABA would still downregulate those receptors like benzos, et. al. do?

Just asking 'cause I wanted to recommend it to someone but don't want to make the situation worse somehow.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Is it possible that oral GABA wouldn't normally cross the BBB but in diseases like ME/CFS it does because of a compromised BBB??? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11461179/

I don't think so, but that's just an opinion, based on something vaguely recalled that I remember reading .....

However, there are GABAa and b receptors scattered throughout our bodies, tho they're not as effective as feeding GABA straight to the source. But they're there, and that's why you can sometimes get a weak GABA-ergic response from oral GABA. It just isn't enough to offset the effects of extended use of exogenous GABA substitutes, but may be better than nothing, especially used in conjunction with other things like magnesium (blocks NMDA receptors, diminishes the effect of glutamate which benzos greatly increase), Vit C, which inhibits the binding of glutamate to the NMDA receptor. Melatonin is helpful as well, since it enhances GABAergic transmission, and may be neuroprotective.

So if that could maybe be the case, do you think taking exogenous GABA would still downregulate those receptors like benzos, et. al. do?

I dont think so. Taking a benzo is like taking a jackhammer to your receptors and GABA distribution/ production. But taking exogenous GABA (not chemical substitutes like Neurontin, gabapentin, Pregbalin etc) shouldnt have the same effect, which is why it cant really be substituted for benzos in the case of someone whose system has already been brutalized. It does a much gentler more organic job...

 

[SlamDancin]

@YippeeKi YOW !! I’m not sure why you called what I said a dangerous oversimplification when it’s not, it’s facts. Due to their unique binding site benzos act as positive allosteric modulators and act differently from GABA. Here’s an excerpt from a medscape article on the subject;

BZRAs enhance the effect of GABA by lowering the concentration of GABA required to open the GABA channel. BZRAs bind to a modulatory site on the GABAA receptor that is distinct from the GABA binding site and change the receptor complex allosterically to increase the affinity of the receptor to GABA, thus producing a larger postsynaptic current prolonging inhibition. Although BZRAs do not directly open the chloride channel, they modulate the ability of GABA to do so, thus enhancing its inhibitory effect.

https://www.medscape.com/answers/11...benzodiazepine-receptor-agonists-for-insomnia

The effect of Benzos are site dependent as they are antagonized by Flumazenil, an antagonist of specifically the benzo site of the GABA-A receptor.

 

[SlamDancin]

I’ve been completely physically dependent on benzos twice in my life and my opinion stands exactly as I wrote it. Benzos are personally the most effective medication class I’ve ever tried.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Due to their unique binding site benzos act as positive allosteric modulators and act differently from GABA.

And again, the issue isnt where benzos act or which modulatory site on the GABAa receptor they work through, it's their documented and known effect on endogenous GABA and their known downregulation of GABA receptors.

If they're helpful to you, that's great. But desperate newcomers have been known to take as gospel what they read in these threads, and I just want to post a general warning.

Not everyone benefits in any real and lasting way from benzodiazepines, altho they DO offer excellent temporary, very powerful, relief to a lot of what ails us. It's just that the price tag can be .... intimidating.

 

[pattismith]

30 mins later, I started feeling warm, after feeling cold all morning, my urination literally stopped, my appetite came back, and despite feeling a little slowed/relaxed from the medication I had an increase in energy and even went for a little walk listening to music.

I noticed I stop urinating with Mirtazapine, and gain weight very quickly, it may be the same effect you have with clonazepam...

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I’ve been completely physically dependent on benzos twice in my life

But not addicted?

I have no opposition to using whatever helps or gets you through, I just believe, strongly, that the full cost of that should be considered before embarking on a protocol that may be difficult and extremely lengthy and painful to reverse ....

 

[SlamDancin]

I was fully dependent aka could not stop cold Turkey without medical intervention and a phenobarbital taper. So yes, I was “addicted” and nothing I said was meant to downplay the risks. We’re talking here about different ways to get a GABAergic effect, hopefully without benzos and I was simply explaining why benzos cause the tolerance you describe. You may think it’s semantics but I think it’s fascinating .