CBS / Ammonia / Glutathione

Messages
95
Likes
29
Methyl Head, so if I have low moly as well as low in copper than would Molybenum be an issue? Since Moly will further reduce copper levels? Can that be a reason I get headaches when I take Moly? Can I coorect the CBS pathway without taking Moly? Even if my Moly is low? Would fixing the leaky gut and correcting the pathway through Ornithine and Yucca etc be enough to correct the CBS?
 
Messages
95
Likes
29
Well I will know for sure about my copper levels once i get my blood tests back. I have been reading about copper a lot and hanging out in the Magnesium Advocacy Group. Apparantly, high copper can really be low copper. It shows high cuz it's not metabolizing in my body. It's free unbound so it appears high. When I had the Biofeedback she said I had zero copper. But it is suggested to get plasma magnesium/copper/ zinc and serra something test to know for sure. But since I am deficient in everything it wouldn't make sense that my copper would really be high. Some people in the group have CBS mutation and they just take Moly for a short period of time and than resume the rest of the protocol. I am really jiving with the protocol, listening to videos. it makes sense to me. Still don't get why I get headaches from Moly. My guess is that is't depleting my copper. It is not recommended to take copper. Only fast oxidizers . The Barley Grass I'm taking an abundance of has a lot of zinc and copper so I think that will help a lot and fixing my gut. So how much Moly should I take at the least? I'm taking the ionic mineral itself. Is that ok? I can't take supplements with additives in it.
 
Messages
12
Likes
6
anyone? please!

my guess is I need folate and choline, but would love some advice
Just like me, you've got CBS 699T (hetero) and BHMT (hetero; all of them). This effectively constitutes a strong up-regulation of CBS. You've also got NOS3 mutations (homozygous; mine is hetero). This is not a good combination. You have a few COMT, the particularly problematic COMT V158M is good. You are COMT (-/-) and VDR Taq (-/-) and this combination is good. So you should be able to tolerate methyl groups (you actually may need it depending on VDR Taq status).

To stimulate BHMT, yes, you would need choline.


Search for "Methylation Nutrigenomics --HeartFixer" PDF.
 

Methyl Head

Justitio_vero_sumptus
Messages
35
Likes
49
Location
Ohio
@dbose - This is perfect for you! I'm always wary about giving dosages without knowing what your deficiencies and other health needs are but the supplements themselves are perfect. I like the low dose use of Niacin, back off of it even more if you feel like you're getting microphagy symptoms. Which form of Niacin is it? Also, any word on the magnesium threonate? I've become curious about it recently.
 
Messages
12
Likes
6
@dbose - This is perfect for you! I'm always wary about giving dosages without knowing what your deficiencies and other health needs are but the supplements themselves are perfect. I like the low dose use of Niacin, back off of it even more if you feel like you're getting microphagy symptoms. Which form of Niacin is it? Also, any word on the magnesium threonate? I've become curious about it recently.
Thanks @Methyl Head

Trying this version from LifeEx, along with Curcumin LongVida as curcumin being methyl donor can create problems. But overall I'm feeling calm and relaxed. MgLT is something that is based upon thorough research. Next going to try PharmaGABA (along with Mg / B6 / Zn to stimulate GABA formation). Do you know any good GABA that gets absorbed well ?
 

Learner1

Administrator
Messages
3,835
Likes
6,871
Location
Pacific Northwest
Abstract
The effects of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (OKG) on ammonium acetate induced hepatotoxicity were studied biochemically in rats. The levels of urea, nonprotein nitrogen, and thiobarbituric acid reactive substances were significantly increased in ammonium acetate treated rats; these levels were significantly decreased in rats treated with ammonium acetate and OKG. Similar patterns of alterations were observed in the levels of free fatty acids, triglycerides, and phospholipids. Furthermore, nonenzymatic antioxidants (vitamins C and E) were significantly decreased in ammonium acetate treated rats, when compared with control rats, and increased in OKG and ammonium acetate treated rats. The biochemical alterations during OKG treatment could be (1) by detoxifying excess ammonia; (2) by participating in nonenzymatic oxidative decarboxylation in the hydrogen peroxide decomposition process, and (3) by enhancing the proper metabolism of fats which could suppress oxygen radical generation and thus prevent the lipid peroxidative damages in rats.

Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel
PMID 12169850 [Indexed for MEDLINE]
Looks like yes. Allergy Research Ornithime aspartate works well for me. Helped me sleep, too.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,355
Likes
2,357
Location
Seattle
I don't know if you actually have CBS but I'm sure you know there are stages to treating and clearing the transsulfuration pathway if it is a problem. If you have a high urine sulfate reading you may qualify for this approach as the transsulfuration pathway has to be cleared first before moving on to any other methylation treatment. If you don't solve this problem first, you're not only flushing all the Mcbl, P-5-P and MTHF down the drain you're also causing yourself damage because your good nutrients will convert to ammonia and sulfites then release into the body which will make things worse in the long run/raise taurine and further exacerbate glutathione production issues because they share the same pathway. With that in mind, there is a stage type approach to methylation when CBS is involved, and early on in treating this problem especially, because certain things will only aggravate symptoms. Here is a link that justifies my views.

http://resqua.com/702188759/what-does-a-cbs-gene-mutation-mean

This way of thinking is not only valid, it's been designed by Dr. Amy Yasko and it's been confirmed in the link above. I'm not saying this will work for everyone but I can say that it worked for me when I first tested for and found CBS, I was very sick and it took me a while to clear everything before I could handle other supplements, and my sulfate readings were about the same as dbose's. I understand the body needs sulfur and the same goes for glycine, it's about timing though, like I stated in my first response to dbose, be careful and really feel what works for you because you might not be ready for some things yet.
No disrespect @Methyl Head, but I just thought perhaps you hadn't heard that Yasko's 'CBS upregulation' hypothesis has been thoroughly and repeatedly discredited since her original work 10+ years ago. As has her claim that one needs to avoid sulfur to address that polymorphism.

Here's just one link from one of the many times it's been mentioned here on PR:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...l-and-have-questions.49663/page-3#post-860965
 
Last edited:
Messages
12
Likes
6
@Methyl Head @dannybex and others,

I now have evidence that the hyperammonemia may not be caused by 10x up-regulation of CBS (discrediting Yasko). Most probably it's being caused by Mitochondrial defects (genetic or acquired as Mitos are very dynamic) systemic or liver-specific. In liver, mitos play a very special role in ammonia processing. Subtle defects in mtDNAs may act like a case of hyperammonemia.

Careful, one of Yasko's suggestions for fixing CBS (which may have been exaggerated) - Yucca Root contains potent saponins which are known to make leaky-gut worse. And leaky-gut itself may be caused my mito dysfunction. Mitos are known to participate in cross-talks with our gut microbiome and often butyrate is involved. There are papers available for it. So low butyrate and microbiome imbalance can actually be an subtle effect of harbouring dysfunctional mitos and colon/uterus are sensitive to such dysfunction (heart and brain cells are have already divided and matured ?)

And mito-dysfunction will cascade to glutathione issues for sure. Cu/Zn balance can be explained by increased production of Zn-dependent mtSOD2 etc. So yeah, Yasko has created a CBS-cult. But science is about continuous exploration.

What you can do to make sure that it's not a mito dysfuntion

- MitoSwab test

Protocols now I'm taking to better overall health and mito-health is to go through a cycle of mito fission and fusion inducing strategies. A senolytic protocol would be good prerequisite before embarking on that protocol.
And try to take as much as natural foods as opposed to supplements, unless you are at a very bad shape genetically.

Senolytic Protocol
------
Quercetin + Fisetin (strawberries and onions, onions and onions; but supplement here is better)

Infrequently once in 2/3 months

Fission-Fusion Protocol (3 days)
------

Defective mitos are usually fused and avoid mitophagy. The idea is to induce fission or at least encourage it via precision protocols. NAD+/NADH ratio, AMPK, mTOR all influences mitophagy

- 20hs+ or 18:6 IF Fasting (its pro-fusion and but more % of fission happens at early phase overnight)
- Apigenin (celery + parsely)
- Nicotinamide+Ribose (careful as it induces NAD+. so a solid senolytic protocol must proceed this)
- Yogic Intermittent Hypoxia (YIH)
- Weight Lifting
etc.

As mitos are fragmented evolutionarily preserved proteins Drp1 starts tagging dysfunctional mitos (after fragmentation its easier for a cell to identify poor performers) for a sweeping mitophagy

Fusion (2 days)
--

CoQ10 / Ubiquinol
PQQ
Vitamin C
Aerobics (cycling)
In fact most of the anti-oxidants are pro-fusion and protects the mitos directly or indirectly via NRF2-glutahione/SOD1/2

Rest: 1/2 day(s)

Cycle this for couple of rounds and measure VO2-Max, HR variability (as cardic metrics will improve with better mitos) and repeat MitoSwab, if you have money.