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Carnivore Diet for ME?

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what exactly do you eat? meat only? do you take any supplements to help w digestion (ie betaine HCL)? that's hard to digest w a dysfunctional gut

congrats on your success! it's good to hear...

Thanks! :)

Also, you are right about the HCL. I forgot to mention this, but in the beginning I could only eat smaller portions of mainly lean meat if I wanted no stomach upset. I played around some with different enzymes and HCL and I found that adding say Bio Gest from Thorne helped a lot. I'm actually seeing a gastroenterologist in two weeks to test for Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficieny and do a esophageal pH monitoring study.

Also I used to have bad gastritis and it was hard to take added HCL. However, it does seem like my stomach lining have healed up over the last couple of months, because I have no stomach irratation from HCL even in large amounts now. Hopefully I can get another gastroscopy done to find out if this is in fact true.

One of my doctors is trying to get me to add in some more carbs, but at this point I'm enjoying having a life so I will probably hold of a bit longer. Long term though I'm sure it would be ideal.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
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1,901
Thanks! :)

Also, you are right about the HCL. I forgot to mention this, but in the beginning I could only eat smaller portions of mainly lean meat if I wanted no stomach upset. I played around some with different enzymes and HCL and I found that adding say Bio Gest from Thorne helped a lot. I'm actually seeing a gastroenterologist in two weeks to test for Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficieny and do a esophageal pH monitoring study.

How is exocrine pancreatic insufficiency diagnosed and what is the treatment?
 

Learner1

Senior Member
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Pacific Northwest
Thank you for explaining your diet.

My experience is vastly different thsn the writer of this article portrays, especially knowing that high oxidative and nitrosative stress have been found by multiple ME/CFS resrarchers. I was already eating vegetables and fruits with high antioxidant content, and taking ALA, A, C, E, glutathione precursors and glutathione.

I recently did an experiment doubling my antioxidant supplements, and found, much to my surprise, that my energy was vastly increased by reducing oxidative stress.

Ms. Ede says "Under normal circumstances, glutathione is sufficient to protect us from natural levels of oxidation, keeping oxidation and anti-oxidation forces in balance."

It is foolish, as an ME/CFS patient, to assume that this advice for "normal" people is right for people who are sick with a disease known to have increased oxidative stress.

I am not recommending to do as I do, but I do think its prudent to test ones antioxidant status before following any antioxidant advice.

And, unless you know otherwise, a carnivore diet has fewer antioxidants than one with vegetables and fruits.
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
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134
I recently did an experiment doubling my antioxidant supplements, and found, much to my surprise, that my energy was vastly increased by reducing oxidative stress.

Ms. Ede says "Under normal circumstances, glutathione is sufficient to protect us from natural levels of oxidation, keeping oxidation and anti-oxidation forces in balance."

It is foolish, as an ME/CFS patient, to assume that this advice for "normal" people is right for people who are sick with a disease known to have increased oxidative stress.

I love Ms. Ede, but frankly I think she's wrong here. Obviously some antioxidants have questionable bioavailability, and they will only do something if the patient is actually running low. Basically, if you're not deficient then save yourself the money. (Although the definition of "deficient" is another matter. Replace "deficient" with "below your target concentration in your blood".) And then there is the question of what you're up against: If inflammation is fire and antioxidants are the extinguisher, they might control a small fire but don't expect the extinguisher to help if your house is on fire.

Turmeric is a good example, I take 450mg curcumin daily -- equivalent to 15g tumeric if we can trust advertising -- at ~20 cents a shot but I don't think I'll restock my supply once I run out. It's something that I just wanted to try for half a year. I knew that the bioavailability was a concern when I ordered it, but then, we don't have a lot of stuff that will combat brain inflammation.

Supplementation with alpha-lipoic acid, vitamin C and vitamin D does help some patients, and a lot of us have low glutathione. Of course the benefits of antioxidants are long term and therefore difficult to single out against other treatments.
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
Just checking out Kwasniewski . https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/03/kwasniewski-praise-lard.html

" Vinka Peschak starts each day by knocking back a full cup of heavy whipping cream. ...In the middle of the day she might have a cup of coffee, "but only with a lot of heavy whipping cream in it." :vomit: Feel nauseous just reading that.
[...]
"On average, the diet recommends a whopping 250 grams of fat per day, about four times what the FDA recommended for the average person to maintain his/her weight and about 10 times the amount of saturated fat allowed. "

Don't think I could do this. ;)

Sounds like a pretty good diet. Lipophobia is something very new in our society! I grew up thinking fat was a bad thing, but have realized recently how great food tastes if you eat keto. Everybody else is envious if I tell them what I eat (meat, butter, lard, heavy cream, mascarpone cheese and the like). There is no scientific background for the limit of the saturated fat, to the contrary, all recent research is very clear that we get sick following a high-carb diet. Gary Taubes wrote some wonderful books about this, check out his talks on youtube.

I reacted like you when I first heard about ketogenic diets, but now I can hardly imagine eating something else.
 

belize44

Senior Member
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1,662
I am over 60, and, having watched my husband have great success with the carnivore diet, have decided to give it a go. This is only my second day, and I feel lousy! Headache, lethargy, peeing a lot (and I am drinking Smart Water to replenish) but am wondering if anyone around my age has tried this, and do you have any pointers to offer? I am experiencing only slight ketosis at this time, but of course it is too early to see more of this.

I would appreciate any feedback I can get.
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
I am over 60, and, having watched my husband have great success with the carnivore diet, have decided to give it a go. This is only my second day, and I feel lousy! Headache, lethargy, peeing a lot (and I am drinking Smart Water to replenish) but am wondering if anyone around my age has tried this, and do you have any pointers to offer? I am experiencing only slight ketosis at this time, but of course it is too early to see more of this.

I went through this at 46 and my father made the same transition at 72. He had no trouble at all. Age is not a problem, but ME/CFS is always tricky as we might have different issues than the rest of the population.

However, this sounds like normal keto flu that can last up to 3 weeks (and peaks after 2-4 days). The deeper you are into metabolic syndrome, the worse the keto flu. Or, in other words, keto flu shows that there is some damage from a high carb diet. (Healthy people transition to keto without problems.) Peeing a lot is normal as kidneys suddenly work much better once the carbs are gone, most people lose several liters of excess water in the first few days. Just drink enough water as thirst dictates.

What I would do (not knowing your medical history and not being a doctor):
  • Make sure you get plenty of electrolytes. Salt and potassium especially. I'd advise some potassium citrate, I take a 1-3 teaspoons a day myself. Tastes horrible but it's necessary for me. Don't worry about getting too much salt or potassium, your kidneys should take care of any excess electrolytes.
  • I'd forget the "smart water", tap water will do fine. But do add some bone broth, preferrably home made. It contains some essential protein and electrolytes.
  • Make sure you eat enough fat. Not all kidneys can handle a high amount of protein, so 70% calories from fat, 25% protein should be your target at first. Some doctors even recommend 80% calories from fat, at least for the first weeks. (T-bone steaks are great, but you won't get enough fat with them. Bulletproof coffee with plenty of butter can deliver pure fat if you need to increase fat. Bone broth is great too, add fat if necessary.)
  • Add some MCT oil or coconut oil. That's not carnivore, but it might still help to jumpstart ketosis and get through the first days. Careful as high amounts of MCT might give indigestion, so start with 1-2 tablespoons MCT oil per day.
I assume you are not taking any diabetes medication? Diabetes medication must be reduced in almost all cases and it may be necessary to supervise the transition medically. Virta Health has a lot of information on this online. Apart from that, there are no drugs that I'm aware of that are problematic with carnivore.

Good luck!
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
I went through this at 46 and my father made the same transition at 72. He had no trouble at all. Age is not a problem, but ME/CFS is always tricky as we might have different issues than the rest of the population.

However, this sounds like normal keto flu that can last up to 3 weeks (and peaks after 2-4 days). The deeper you are into metabolic syndrome, the worse the keto flu. Or, in other words, keto flu shows that there is some damage from a high carb diet. (Healthy people transition to keto without problems.) Peeing a lot is normal as kidneys suddenly work much better once the carbs are gone, most people lose several liters of excess water in the first few days. Just drink enough water as thirst dictates.

What I would do (not knowing your medical history and not being a doctor):
  • Make sure you get plenty of electrolytes. Salt and potassium especially. I'd advise some potassium citrate, I take a 1-3 teaspoons a day myself. Tastes horrible but it's necessary for me. Don't worry about getting too much salt or potassium, your kidneys should take care of any excess electrolytes.
  • I'd forget the "smart water", tap water will do fine. But do add some bone broth, preferrably home made. It contains some essential protein and electrolytes.
  • Make sure you eat enough fat. Not all kidneys can handle a high amount of protein, so 70% calories from fat, 25% protein should be your target at first. Some doctors even recommend 80% calories from fat, at least for the first weeks. (T-bone steaks are great, but you won't get enough fat with them. Bulletproof coffee with plenty of butter can deliver pure fat if you need to increase fat. Bone broth is great too, add fat if necessary.)
  • Add some MCT oil or coconut oil. That's not carnivore, but it might still help to jumpstart ketosis and get through the first days. Careful as high amounts of MCT might give indigestion, so start with 1-2 tablespoons MCT oil per day.
I assume you are not taking any diabetes medication? Diabetes medication must be reduced in almost all cases and it may be necessary to supervise the transition medically. Virta Health has a lot of information on this online. Apart from that, there are no drugs that I'm aware of that are problematic with carnivore.

Good luck!
Thank you for the helpful tips! No, thank goodness I am not diabetic. I already use good salt every day, because of Hypovolemia. In fact, I was afraid to try carnivore because of the electrolyte issue. I must remember to take the bone broth, too.
 

leokitten

Senior Member
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I don’t believe you are going to “heal” with either of those diets. From my personal experience with keto and reading the testimonials of so many others with ME doing keto, the moment you stop doing it you go back to square one.

It takes maybe 1-2 weeks at the most but once you stop eating keto your pre-keto ME symptom severity comes back.

In addition, both diets are extremely unhealthy for your cardiovascular system and other organs. These diets are very acidic and they totally mess up your gut microbiome.

I was doing healthy keto and still my LDL and total cholesterol shot up to unhealthy ranges where they were normal before, and this over time would’ve resulted in cardiovascular disease (on top of ME because you would have to stop keto once the doctor found out). If anyone wants to challenge that then show scientific proof with longitudinal studies (there isn’t any), but it is well known with plenty of scientific evidence that high cholesterol and LDL result in atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease.
 
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belize44

Senior Member
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I don’t believe you are going to “heal” with either of those diets. From my personal experience with keto and reading the testimonials of so many others with ME doing keto, the moment you stop doing it you go back to square one.

It takes maybe 1-2 weeks at the most but once you stop eating keto your pre-keto ME symptom severity comes back.

In addition, both diet are extremely unhealthy for your cardiovascular system and other organs. These diets are very acidic and they totally mess up your gut microbiome.

I was doing healthy keto and still my LDL and total cholesterol shot up to unhealthy ranges where they were normal before, and this over time would’ve resulted in cardiovascular disease (on top of ME because you would have to stop keto once the doctor found out). If anyone wants to challenge that then show scientific proof with longitudinal studies (there isn’t any), but it is well known by plenty of scientific evidence that high cholesterol and LDL result in atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease.
I am not doing Keto.
 

leokitten

Senior Member
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Paleo diet may be bad for heart health

Heart disease biomarker linked to paleo diet

It would be even worse for the carnivore diet. Diets really high in meat, saturated fat, or total fats are just not good for human beings in the long term, period. It might give you short term gains in your ME symptoms, but you are trading it for the high risk of getting some permanent and severe diseases in the future, on top of your ME.
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
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6,305
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I am over 60, and, having watched my husband have great success with the carnivore diet, have decided to give it a go. This is only my second day, and I feel lousy! Headache, lethargy, peeing a lot (and I am drinking Smart Water to replenish) but am wondering if anyone around my age has tried this, and do you have any pointers to offer? I am experiencing only slight ketosis at this time, but of course it is too early to see more of this.

I would appreciate any feedback I can get.
Carnivore is ill-advised, because:
  1. there is no fiber and it would be problematic for a healthy microbiome
  2. there is little to no folate, which is essential for methylation and detoxification. Too little methylation can be a problem for immune function, neurotransmitter production, and can lead to cancer.
  3. there is little to no vitamin C, vitamin E, and plant based antioxidants. Imbalanced antioxidants can lead to cancer, lipid peroxudation and DNA damage.
Fad diets should be thoughtfully considered with all pros and cons, especially when one has a serious illness like ME/CFS. A nutrient dense diet might be wise...
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134

You can find studies for whatever position you want, pro and contra paleo/keto. The trick is to look at well designed, good quality studies. This one isn't among them, for several reason:
  • "Paleo" isn't well defined, and the study follows "self reported" paleo followers.
  • Cause and effect is not established. People are likely to go to special diets if they have health issues in the first place. Reporting health issues among "paleo followers" doesn't establish anything.
  • This is an observational study, the weakest form of nutritional science that is proven to be wrong most of the time.
  • Good studies look at overall mortality over a long timeframe, not a single biomarker with very questionable worth.

Carnivore is ill-advised, because:
  1. there is no fiber and it would be problematic for a healthy microbiome
  2. there is little to no folate, which is essential for methylation and detoxification. Too little methylation can be a problem for immune function, neurotransmitter production, and can lead to cancer.
  3. there is little to no vitamin C, vitamin E, and plant based antioxidants. Imbalanced antioxidants can lead to cancer, lipid peroxudation and DNA damage.
Fad diets should be thoughtfully considered with all pros and cons, especially when one has a serious illness like ME/CFS. A nutrient dense diet might be wise...

Paleo/Keto is among the most nutrient dense diets that you can get. Meat/eggs contain way more micronutrients than most starch-based foods. Terms like "fad diet" are frequently used unscientifically by people who run out of scientific arguments. Plant based antioxidants are only required to handle damage created by plants. There is no scientific proof whatsoever that a carnivore diet causes DNA damage. In fact, science says just the contrary:

But I'll stop here. I could write many pages to counter each of your arguments, but this subject is way too complex to discuss it in a few paragraphs.

Anybody who wants to dig deeper into the science of keto/paleo can browse through a Youtube playlist of scientific talks that I created a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPxIHxsNKIZLcPj9YdGO_M43aWNROTxTf
In these talks you'll find references to all the studies you need.
 

leokitten

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There are literally ZERO longitudinal studies comparing these diets over a long period of time to standard Western, vegan, vegetarian, etc. Everything published only looks at a few weeks to a few months, and these short time frames will never catch the serious issues with these diets that I’m talking about. Everything you’ve mentioned is just research handwaving or doctors who have a financial interest in promoting a diet.

If research finds very bad markers for health as well as good for a specific diet I would rather not be a guinea pig and years later find out damn now I have heart disease, kidney, liver, or gut problems at a younger age than I should have. Maybe do a diet instead that doesn’t have research showing bad health markers?

So what, with paleo, keto, or carnivore you won’t get diabetes but there is strongly suggestive research showing very bad markers for heart disease and other problems.
 

leokitten

Senior Member
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It is also settled evolutionary science and paleontology that we humans, during our entire evolution of hundreds of thousands of years, did not eat a lot of meat until very recently. We are not evolved to eat paleo, keto, or carnivore long term and they are damaging.

For hundreds of thousands of years most days we only ate vegetables and fruits and meat was an infrequent privilege. In fact, if you look at almost every single indigenous culture still existing today that follows the same diet that they’ve followed for thousands of years, they all eat only small amounts of meat and tons of vegetables and fruits.

If there is a diet that shows only positive health markers and is in line with our human evolution and how our bodies are built the diet people should follow is intermittent fasting. There isn’t one sound research paper showing anything negative about this diet.

If there is anything true about diet research is that research always finds in the end that you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
 
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gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
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After a year of Paleo, and now four months of Ketogenic Diet (with a few slip ups) I am certainly improving very gradually and can really understand the benefits of the Keto diet by not feeling inflamed and having my PEM largely reduced, slightly more energy before exertion, improved balance and coordination issues, general feeling of being more resilient to triggers and generally feeling stronger.

But despite seeing these improvements, I am becoming aware of just how much time and effort it is going to take to ''Heal'' my body with this diet amongst other things (probiotics, methylation protocol and so on), and maybe that is not even possible?! but I am heading in the right direction slowly.

ANYWAY, recently i have been made aware of a community of people online led by Dr. Shawn Baker (seriously macho american dude) who are using a ZC - Zero carb or Carnivore diet to either move from baseline health to elite physicality or from illness to baseline and beyond. This diet consists of eating just eggs, butter, meat and fish with some exceptions.

The fascinating thing is that it seems to be working for many people with autoimmune and neurological conditions, and to me it now makes total sense if many illnesses are gut-derived in the sense that the microbiome is disturbed. Our standard diet (Even Paleo, or Keto) continues to feed the gut with various fibres that can just feed pathogenic bacteria or overgrowths.

I am almost totally convinced because I know how different i feel when I eat Keto with some vegetables and other potentially inflammatory foods and when I have a day that I just drink a bulletproof coffee, eggs for lunch and say a Steak for dinner (with maybe a small amount of veg). Essentially I have been weaning myself on to the ZC Carnivore diet, which initially seems quite crazy! but I think after a few months of Ketogenic it is not such a shock for the mind or the body.

Baker's suggestion is that we should go ZC for a couple of months to clear up inflammation, allow the body to heal a bit, then at this stage maybe reintroduce some things to see how you get on.

We are surrounded by an overwhelming about of information at the moment in the media, and also popular culture which is moving towards a plant-based vegan or vegetarian diet but it feels quite paradoxical when that way of eating makes you feel terrible (in my experience) and reintroducing meat helps you become stronger and improved in health. Obviously everybody is different, and varying microbiomes mean the people can tolerate different things. i think for someone without ME that a plant based diet might be totally beneficial if their gut microbiota is good.

*Disclaimer* I don't want to offend any vegans! I'm just working with my body...

Here's a tweet that led me to start considering this WOE:

''
Elsie Russell‏@virtuelsie
FollowFollow @virtuelsie
More
Replying to @SBakerMD
(62 yrs.) Paleo 3/4 yrs, good but now Carni+eggs from Aug 1/17 and ALL symptoms improved: neuro (MS)100% remission, sinus gone, GI, old injuries/improved, 17 BMI, lean w/16% BF w/muscle, youthful skin, better nails, teeth, 100% more (positive) energy. MEAT HEALS! THNX!''


I don't think a carnivore diet is a good idea. ME is a disease where cells infected with chronic viruses have inhibited mitochrondria that can't burn fat to make energy in the Kreb's cycle to make energy due to upregulated Nf-kb so ATP and NAD energy production drops 90%. You are left with being able to only burn glucose (starch) and still need a smaller amount of essential healthy fats (EPA-hemp oil, fish and DHA-fish). Eating a paleo diet boosts protein and fat with less glucose (starch). You don't want high fat because you won't be able to burn it. D-ribose and nicotinamide riboside which are energy work arounds with a reduced fat diet are what you want to boost energy.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
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6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Paleo/Keto is among the most nutrient dense diets that you can get.
Paleo and keto are 2 different diets. They can overlap, but much of the time, they don't.

I would agree that Paleo diets are more nutrient dense than most other diets. However, they are low in calcium and can be very high in oxalates, a toxin that can doba lot of harm.

Keto diets are low in both carbohydrates and protein. The ME/CFS researchers have found that we tend to be short in amino acids, so this could be a bad idea. And for those of us who have trouble with fatty acid oxidation, as @gbells mentions, we need need carbohydrates.
It is also settled evolutionary science and paleontology that we humans, during our entire evolution of hundreds of thousands of years, did not eat a lot of meat until very recently. We are not evolved to eat paleo, keto, or carnivore long term and they are damaging.
Er, traditionally Inuit cuisine (or Eskimo cuisine), which includes Greenlandic cuisine and Yup'ik cuisine, consisted of a diet of animal source foods that were fished, hunted, and gathered locally

The bulk of the diet consisted of:

Sea mammals such as walrus, seal, and whale. Whale meat generally comes from the narwhal, beluga whale and the bowhead whale. Ringed seal and bearded seal are the most important aspect of an Inuit diet and is often the largest part of an Inuit hunter's diet. Land mammals such as caribou, polar bear, and muskox Birds and their eggs. Saltwater and freshwater fish including sculpin, Arctic cod, Arctic char, capelin and lake trout.

They were not able to cultivate any vegetables, but did occasionally supplement the foods above with roots, tubers, and berries that they were able to gather from the wild, when they were not covered with snow.

For hundreds of thousands of years most days we only ate vegetables and fruits and meat was an infrequent privilege. In fact, if you look at almost every single indigenous culture still existing today that follows the same diet that they’ve followed for thousands of years, they all eat only small amounts of meat and tons of vegetables and fruits.
As pointed out above, this is absolutely untrue. There are a wide variety of diets eaten by indigenous peoples, from mostly carnivore to mostly vegetarian, depending upon foods available in the local area. The one thing they all had in common was being omnivore to some degree.
Plant based antioxidants are only required to handle damage created by plants. There is no scientific proof whatsoever that a carnivore diet causes DNA damage. In fact, science says just the contrary:
There are no studies long-term on a carnivore diet.

We could debate this particular topic for a very long time. I will just give you one example, and that's resveratrol.

"As a natural food ingredient, numerous studies have demonstrated that resveratrol possesses a very high antioxidant potential. Resveratrol also exhibit antitumor activity, and is considered a potential candidate for prevention and treatment of several types of cancer. Indeed, resveratrol anticancer properties have been confirmed by many in vitro and in vivo studies, which shows that resveratrol is able to inhibit all carcinogenesis stages (e.g., initiation, promotion and progression). Even more, other bioactive effects, namely as anti-inflammatory, anticarcinogenic, cardioprotective, vasorelaxant, phytoestrogenic and neuroprotective have also been reported."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6164842/#:~:text=As a natural food ingredient,of several types of cancer.

If there is a diet that shows only positive health markers and is in line with our human evolution and how our bodies are built the diet people should follow is intermittent fasting. There isn’t one sound research paper showing anything negative about this diet.
There aren't any long-term studies on people with intermittent fasting either. It currently seems to be a good idea, but most of the studies are on much shorter lived animals. Again, sick people like us may have different needs than the diet being currently pushed by the longevity folks. I interviewed a doctor who's pushing people onto Walter Longo's fasting mimicking diet, shared my labs, And what my doctors and I have found about my health and tendencies, and he very quickly decided it was a very bad diet for me, even though it could be a helpful diet to most obese Americans on a standard American diet. As I'm neither and have ME/CFS and the labs that I do, it is not appropriate for me.

There is no substitute for testing to see what one's nutrient status is and one's tendencies, And then one can choose a diet. But, unfortunately most dietary research is either done on animals with a controlled diet, and there are a lot of reasons why what animals are fed is not right for people, or they are observational studies at best, and done for a short periods of time, and not for a lifetime to make be able to make any good conclusions. We are all genetically different and have different environmental factors and especially microbiomes, so that the same diet is not right for all of us.
D-ribose and nicotinamide riboside which are energy work arounds with a reduced fat diet are what you want to boost energy.
Not everyone can use nicotinamide riboside. It has to go through more conversion to get to NAD+ then simply taking NAD+ or the substance that's only one step away, NMN. I have tried two two month trials of high dose NR, which had absolutely no effect on me, after much hype by the people pushing it. It was a complete waste of money. I do well with low dose NMN or NAD+, and NADH works well, too, it's just a lot more expensive to get. There are multiple threads discussing it, so you may want to post about this there and not derail this thread.
 
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