carnitine or NAC for those with CBS+, NOS+, COMT+, SUOX+ ??

[oh_noes]

I've been reading about the purported benefits of carnitine and n-acetyl-carnitive for CFS. However, according to Amy Yasko's protocol, it should be avoided (or at least used very sparingly) by those homozygous or heterozygous for CBS, NOS, COMT and SUOX, because carnitine is a methyl donor and NAC is an ammonia antagonist. Is it not possible for those with any/some/all of those SNPs to take it?

 

[Critterina]

NAC is usually N-acetyl cysteine. Do you mean that or acetyl-l-carnitine?

 

[oh_noes]

My bad; for NAC I meant N-acetyl cysteine, and for carnitine I meant any form of carnitine.

 

[Freddd]

My bad; for NAC I meant N-acetyl cysteine, and for carnitine I meant any form of carnitine.

NAC can cause "NAC DETOX" which is methyltrap. It can make a person quite sick and do further damage, for instance to the immune system and neurology. L-carnitine fumarate is the more probable version of carnitine for us here FMS/ME/CFS.

 

[oh_noes]

Thanks Freddd. Do you know, though, if L-carnitine fumarate is ok for those with the listed mutations?

 

[ahmo]

Thanks Freddd. Do you know, though, if L-carnitine fumarate is ok for those with the listed mutations?

I'm very happily using L Carnitine Fumarate (LCF). Along with the other 3 members of the "Deadlock Quartet" (MethylFolate, MethylB12, AdB12) it's pushed me way into the healing zone. I avoid all sulfur (high thiol) foods, ie. veggies, eggs, eat a small palm-sized amount of meat 2x/day. I'm pretty sure it was NAC that gave me a terrible reaction when I tried it a few years ago, as did SAMe. But that was at a time when I hadn't eliminated anything from my diet. I think the effects of sulfur is cumulative. cheers ,ahmo

 

[knackers323]

I'm very happily using L Carnitine Fumarate (LCF). Along with the other 3 members of the "Deadlock Quartet" (MethylFolate, MethylB12, AdB12) it's pushed me way into the healing zone. I avoid all sulfur (high thiol) foods, ie. veggies, eggs, eat a small palm-sized amount of meat 2x/day. I'm pretty sure it was NAC that gave me a terrible reaction when I tried it a few years ago, as did SAMe. But that was at a time when I hadn't eliminated anything from my diet. I think the effects of sulfur is cumulative. cheers ,ahmo

Hi ahmo

I recently started the folate and b12 and felt a bit of an increase in energy from the b12 I think. I then added the l carnitine fumerate and felt a big surge in energy and couldn't sleep that night.

Do you have an understanding of what it means when carnitine makes a big difference like that? Is it just a sign of the methylation system working, or something else?

How long on the carnitine and other supps before you noticed a difference and has it continued to progress?

Thanks

 

[ahmo]

@knackers323, Here's something Freddd wrote recently:

In my experience, the anxiety-anger activation happens with ATP startup. Though any of the 4 items can deadlock ATP production, carnitine appears to produce the very large hyper reaction most often. I have no idea of any of the genes. TMG can help take the ATP edge off. probably by shifting balance.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sium-opposes-mf-help.25857/page-2#post-414292

I don't have any of Freddd's other carnitine answers at my fingertips, but you might search for them.

I'd tried 2 or 3 other forms of carnitine, with no results, until I finally got LCF. I felt it immediately: a sense of "brightening". I was already taking TMG at that point. Each of the other Deadlock Quartet supps has made a noticeable difference. You can see my post of a few minutes ago (below), detailing my most recent folate/B12 experience. I am absolutely progressing, now agree with Freddd's hypothesis that underlying our illness is a long term and drastic B12/folate deficiency condition. Cheers, ahmo
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-146

 

[knackers323]

@knackers323, Here's something Freddd wrote recently: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sium-opposes-mf-help.25857/page-2#post-414292

I don't have any of Freddd's other carnitine answers at my fingertips, but you might search for them.

I'd tried 2 or 3 other forms of carnitine, with no results, until I finally got LCF. I felt it immediately: a sense of "brightening". I was already taking TMG at that point. Each of the other Deadlock Quartet supps has made a noticeable difference. You can see my post of a few minutes ago (below), detailing my most recent folate/B12 experience. I am absolutely progressing, now agree with Freddd's hypothesis that underlying our illness is a long term and drastic B12/folate deficiency condition. Cheers, ahmo
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-146

That was very helpfull thanks.

Apart from the quartet, have you found anything else necessary or helpfull?

 

[ahmo]

@knackers323, I'm on A LOT of supps! My life support system. Aminos: GABA, glycine, glutamine, ornithine (anti-histamine); choline, inositol, TMG, K+, Mg, Manganese, Se, Zinc, mbd, boron, chromium; a selection of anti-histamine supps; B complex. P5P; ubiquinol, fish oil, primrose oil, K2, probiotics...that's most of them. Also I've had very good results with glandulars: hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal. so much stuff! cheers, ahmo

 

[knackers323]

@knackers323, I'm on A LOT of supps! My life support system. Aminos: GABA, glycine, glutamine, ornithine (anti-histamine); choline, inositol, TMG, K+, Mg, Manganese, Se, Zinc, mbd, boron, chromium; a selection of anti-histamine supps; B complex. P5P; ubiquinol, fish oil, primrose oil, K2, probiotics...that's most of them. Also I've had very good results with glandulars: hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal. so much stuff! cheers, ahmo

Ha ha. Which of these are in relation to the methylation cycle though?

 

[Freddd]

Hi ahmo

I recently started the folate and b12 and felt a bit of an increase in energy from the b12 I think. I then added the l carnitine fumerate and felt a big surge in energy and couldn't sleep that night.

Do you have an understanding of what it means when carnitine makes a big difference like that? Is it just a sign of the methylation system working, or something else?

How long on the carnitine and other supps before you noticed a difference and has it continued to progress?

Thanks

Hi Knackers,

The LCF transports fats into the cell and mitochondria for the AdoCbl to put through the Krebs cycle for generation of ATP, the energy currency of the body. The big difference means that you were very low on the ATP generation and your body was getting along on a fraction of what it needed, and many breakdowns from not having the ATP to power various enzyme reactions. It will take a while for the body to level out. You need AdoCbl too complete the whole cycle. The amount of LCF can be adjusted to a moderately energized level. TMG can moderate that. ATP is a major part of why fatigue is such a part of it.. The AdoCbl and LCF stimulate mitochondrial proliferation so you have more capacity plus it improves the performance of those already there. With the mitochondria available muscles can heal and grow. It also causes neuroblasts and osteoblasts to form adding neurological and bone growth. These things can take years. It can take a year or more for full density of mitochondria.

Because of all my missteps, experiments and so on I've had a bout 5 years worth of healing in the past 10 years. Healing starts immediately and then potassium goes low and folate goes low about day 3 or so. What happens is that healing occurs in layers. Each layer that heals makes it possible for the one based on that. If a person is disabled, I have found that a lot of people can get to the point of starting rehabilitation, which is needed to heal the muscles and other things, in about a year of generalized healing.

 

[Sing]

NAC can cause "NAC DETOX" which is methyltrap. It can make a person quite sick and do further damage, for instance to the immune system and neurology. L-carnitine fumarate is the more probable version of carnitine for us here FMS/ME/CFS.

I used 600 mg a night of NAC Sustain by Jarrow, which enabled me to sleep through the night, which I badly needed. Half way through the month I got a long-running respiratory infection from my grandkids and am only slowly recovering. But the serious thing is that the modest lowering of blood pressure which seemed to be happening from the NAC increased a lot more so I no longer can take a daily walk as I was. Even with Midodrine and into the afternoon, my best time, I can only walk 50 yds. I stopped taking NAC but now I wonder if there is an antidote, perhaps something which affects the NO, nitric oxide increase, which I read comes from NAC and causes the hypotension.

Do you know of a simple antidote, Fredd, or have I shot myself in the foot for some time?

 

[knackers323]

Hi Knackers,

The LCF transports fats into the cell and mitochondria for the AdoCbl to put through the Krebs cycle for generation of ATP, the energy currency of the body. The big difference means that you were very low on the ATP generation and your body was getting along on a fraction of what it needed, and many breakdowns from not having the ATP to power various enzyme reactions. It will take a while for the body to level out. You need AdoCbl too complete the whole cycle. The amount of LCF can be adjusted to a moderately energized level. TMG can moderate that. ATP is a major part of why fatigue is such a part of it.. The AdoCbl and LCF stimulate mitochondrial proliferation so you have more capacity plus it improves the performance of those already there. With the mitochondria available muscles can heal and grow. It also causes neuroblasts and osteoblasts to form adding neurological and bone growth. These things can take years. It can take a year or more for full density of mitochondria.

Because of all my missteps, experiments and so on I've had a bout 5 years worth of healing in the past 10 years. Healing starts immediately and then potassium goes low and folate goes low about day 3 or so. What happens is that healing occurs in layers. Each layer that heals makes it possible for the one based on that. If a person is disabled, I have found that a lot of people can get to the point of starting rehabilitation, which is needed to heal the muscles and other things, in about a year of generalized healing.

Really helpful answer Fredd thanks.

If I take all four of the deadlock quartet and probably potassium at some stage, is that all I am likely to need?

Are the cofactors kind of optional?

Also if I am getting results at a certain dose, is there any benefit to increasing it? Or does it reach a limit where only so much can be done in a certain time frame?

Thanks very much

 

[ahmo]

Hi Knackers. I frankly can't separate out which are contributing to methylation. The DQ is the most direct connection. Plus the TMG. But the minerals are also essential for my defects. And the fatty acids are also pretty core. And so on....Re your question to Freddd re increasing dosages, I'm just in the process of increasing my B12/folate, small changes yielding results. Somewhere Freddd's got a post re how much seems to help, and when increases are no longer useful, generally. He'll probably answer you here. cheers, ahmo

 

[Freddd]

Really helpful answer Fredd thanks.

If I take all four of the deadlock quartet and probably potassium at some stage, is that all I am likely to need?

Are the cofactors kind of optional?

Also if I am getting results at a certain dose, is there any benefit to increasing it? Or does it reach a limit where only so much can be done in a certain time frame?

Thanks very much

Hi Knackers,


Are the cofactors kind of optional?

NO. They are required. So first all the basics need to be started, A, B-complex (minus folic acid and CyCbl), C, D, E, zinc, magnesium, calcium, omega3 oils, and some others. Also, the critical cofactors then need to be titrated for effectiveness especially if healing hadn't started yet. You need to read the levels of healing post. That has all the basic info in it and then your questions will be more towards your own situation.

Also if I am getting results at a certain dose, is there any benefit to increasing it? Or does it reach a limit where only so much can be done in a certain time frame?

Both. That is why all sorts of thongs have to be titrated (adjusted) over and over, responsively to how things work for you.

 

[knackers323]

Ok. I have a multi and B complex here but they contain folic acid and cycbl. So it would only be detrimental to take them?

What is donut hole folate insufficiency?

 

[Freddd]

Ok. I have a multi and B complex here but they contain folic acid and cycbl. So it would only be detrimental to take them?

What is donut hole folate insufficiency?

Hi Knackers,

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/

WHY DOESN’T FOLIC ACID WORK WELL FOR EVERYBODY?

When the same questions are asked about folic acid the same answers arise. If it were food it would be “stale” and spoiled. It’s too oxidized. It is to l-methylfolate as flaxseed oil is to linoleum. We never evolved to use that. It’s no wonder that nobody can convert enough folic acid to fulfill all folate requirements. It’s no wonder 20% can’t convert it at all, 30% can convert limited amounts and about 50% can convert up to about 800mcg daily of folic acid which is not as much as the body needs to heal. We never evolved to use it. 60 years of usage since it’s invention hasn’t killed the billions yet that would allow evolution to adapt to folic acid.

and a whole lot more. There is an explanation of multiple types of paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency in my posts that follow.

Very quickly, a given amount of methylfolate can start more healing than it can maintain. It then steals it from other layers of healing in your body giving healing on some layers and deficiency symptoms on other levels.

Folic acid can block perhaps 10x or more of methylfolate. So if you are taking 800mcg of folic acid then if you are like me you might as well be flushing 8000mcg of Metafolin down the drain. Some research suggests that CyCbl may block MeCbl or AdoCbl and is 1/100 to 1/10,000 as effective, a really bad tradeoff.

 

[Freddd]

I used 600 mg a night of NAC Sustain by Jarrow, which enabled me to sleep through the night, which I badly needed. Half way through the month I got a long-running respiratory infection from my grandkids and am only slowly recovering. But the serious thing is that the modest lowering of blood pressure which seemed to be happening from the NAC increased a lot more so I no longer can take a daily walk as I was. Even with Midodrine and into the afternoon, my best time, I can only walk 50 yds. I stopped taking NAC but now I wonder if there is an antidote, perhaps something which affects the NO, nitric oxide increase, which I read comes from NAC and causes the hypotension.

Do you know of a simple antidote, Fredd, or have I shot myself in the foot for some time?

Hi Sing,

MeCbl, AdoCbl to restore the excreted b12 and methylfolate. Make sure you have potassium handy for when methylation starts up. After that its titrate potassium and methylfolate to stability in lack of deficiency symptoms. Be sure you are taking the basics. Once we see how you react to the initial doses then adjustments need to be customized to you. "it's a mere flesh wound". How long ago did you start this?

 

[Critterina]

My bad; for NAC I meant N-acetyl cysteine, and for carnitine I meant any form of carnitine.

NAC is problematic for people with histamine intolerance, also. The symptoms vary widely individual to individual. If you respond badly to NAC, check out the article by Maintz in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. I'm not saying it's not methyl trap, but it is cited in the article as a source of histamine, for those of us who struggle with that issue.