Calcium issue

[Kadar]

Hello. Sorry if this topic already exists, but I haven't found answers for my question. Whenever I take calcium I have pain in heart and adrenals (calcification?). You would say I need k2, but the problem is I took k2 last ~3 weeks (mixed 500mcg mk4 & 100mcg mk7, 1 capsule each 3 days; I can't take more because k2 depletes b2 too fast). So now I really need calcium - helps with muscle cramps and heart palpitations after k2, but I don't like pains in organs after calcium. By the way, I have low selenium and boron according to hair test (they both seem to affect calcium metabolism), and recently was taking manganese which I believe activated vitamin D because it gave me permanent magnesium need. This is why I took K2 (to supress high doses of D I took 3 months ago). Maybe same happening with K2 now (overactive after manganese).
Anyway why I have pain in organs after calcium intake despite vitamin K2?

 

[Judee]

Do your calcium levels read low? Most newer info I have read say not to supplement with calcium but that we should get calcium from the food we eat.

Calcium actually helps the muscles to contract so that may be making your muscle cramps worse. Your heart is also a muscle. Magnesium does the opposite. It relaxes muscle.

I also take K2 but with vitamin D at the same time. Otherwise the vitamin D alone also gives me muscle cramps, probably again, because it is mobilizing some calcium from other areas of our body and I think can actually raise our blood calcium levels that way.

Calcium supplementation will also neutralize stomach acid and we need stomach acid to properly digest our foods. Many people with low stomach acid have absorption issues.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I can't take more because k2 depletes b2 too fast

First off, where did you hear or read that MK7 depletes Vit B2?

As far as I can figure, there's no mechanism that Vit K, in either the MK7 or MK4 form, would work thru to diminish or deplete B-2, but I've been wrong before and expect I will be again. I just dont think that this is the time, tho I'm sure someone will hurry in to set me straight.

You would say I need k2, but the problem is I took k2 last ~3 weeks (mixed 500mcg mk4 & 100mcg mk7, 1 capsule each 3 days

My second observation is that while MK4 has benefits too, the MK7 form has been researched far more, and is the form that helps promote calcium into the places where you need it, like bones and teeth, and away from places where you don't, like soft tissues, joints, arteries, and vessels. MK4 can do this too, but it requires a boatload of it, like 15,000 mgs, which is what was used in Japanese research studies.

In order to have any effect, taking 100 mcg of MK7 every three days would be fairly useless.

MK7 hits peak serum concentration at approximately 4 hours, and while it's capable of a cumulative effect in your bloodstream for up to 3 days, its effects and benefits diminish considerably. MK4 on the other hand hits peak serum concentration in about 2 hours, after which it quickly disappears.

By the way, I have low selenium and boron according to hair test

Hair tests are like looking a a rear view mirror. They're relatively useless in terms of diagnostic or predictive effectiveness.

recently was taking manganese which I believe activated vitamin D because it gave me permanent magnesium need

It was the Vit D that gave you permanent agnesium need. Magnesium is essential for the absorption of Vit D, and without sufficient magnesium, your body will steal it from wherever it can get it, including your bones, which will produce unpleasant side effects.

Manganese has very little to do with the absorption or metabolizing of Vit D.

Anyway why I have pain in organs after calcium intake despite vitamin K2?

Without MK7, the calcium you take will settle in soft tissues, including your organs.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I also take K2 but with vitamin D at the same time.

I know I've mentioned this before, but taking Vit D3 with K2 can be counter productive, as they tend to cancel each other out ....

Instead, maybe try taking magnesium with your Vit D, which will help offset digestive issues as well as promote the absorption of the D, and take your K2 two or more hours later ....

There. I promise not to mention this again ....

 

[Kadar]

@Judee I don't know my current calcium status. I know that I don't need magnesium now because it doesn't help now, only makes worse. It doesn't relieve current cramps and anxiety, and calcium does.

 

[Kadar]

@YippeeKi YOW !! I heard about k2 depleting b2 on this or another forum. I'm not sure I can find it. I had palpitations when first tried mk7, calcium, potassium and magnesium didn't help with that. Later I found b2 really cure palpitations after k2. I don't care about any papers about that, I found it worked. Since b2 involved in bone formation as D, A, K, magnesium, calcium, boron, manganese, silicasilica, etc. And I had clear b2 deficiency symptoms: light sensitivity, tiredness, reaction on meal.

About doses of k2. If I would try suggested dose, I would simply die because of b2 shift. 100mcg mk7 is very potent for me enough. I guess it's about genetics that some people need thousand instead of hundreds micrograms. Many people get serious palpitations from 100mcg because it depletes b2 in my experience. Btw, I needed only 3 or so capsules of mk4 (each 100mcg) to stop heavy palpitations due to oxalates (k2 regulates oxalates problem). Before that I needed lots of copper everyday. So I don't believe I need such big doses.

And I know that this is vitamin D that depletes magnesium. I mean, in February I took lots of vitamin D (around ~40k everyday for 2-3 weeks). I was loosing magnesium but only when I took D. After that it was silence. Very suspicious not to have magnesium dropped after such doses. Usually I react very soon on supplementation. Then in March I introduced manganese and after that my magnesium started to drop everyday without taking any supplement. I take this as activation of vitamin D by manganese. Now after K2 my magnesium doesn't drop yet, seems K really lowered D. My muscle craps now due to calcium deficiency

 

[xploit316]

I have Adrenal fatigue, Histamine intolerance, low cortisol. In Low cortisol potassium requirements increase. I have noticed Cal, Vitd, VitK, Mag, Vit B1, B3, B6, B9, B12, VitC give me joint pain, arthritis pain in hands and heart arrythymias which I think is due to it dropping my cortisol or potassium further. I read in another of your posts that VitE dropped your calcium? DId you test your calcium or vitd prior to supplementing?

 

[Kadar]

@xploit316 I already forgot about vitamin E experience. I didn't test my calcium that time, I tell it according to my symptoms. I guess it maybe not calcium deficiency, but something that regulates calcium metabolism - copper or vitamin A, since I feel badly in organs. Or maybe Im still deficient in K..

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I heard about k2 depleting b2 on this or another forum.

I've done a fairly diligent search for any info on Vit K2, of any form, depleting B2, and there is absolutely NOTHING that supports this.

I don't like to let potentially damaging misunderstandings of information hang around to befuddle and possibly mislead newcomers to these threads. I know how vulnerable I was when I first joined PR, and how desperate for help or answers I was.

Or maybe Im still deficient in K..

I think that might be a good place to start doing some research.

I didn't test my calcium that time, I tell it according to my symptoms

Determining something based on symptoms, while not impossible and often the first place most of us start, is difficult, unreliable, and potentially dangerous ... The same symptoms, absent testing of underlying factors, can indicate a wide variety of potentialities and lead to some very inaccurate, sometimes wildly inaccurate conclusions and treatments ....

ME is difficult enough without adding in additional confounding factors ... always do some research before accepting anything as received wisdom. And if you decide to try something, follow the PR Golden Rule: Start Low And Go Slow until you know how your system reacts to any treatment, supplement, or medication ...

 

[xploit316]

Organ meats are high histamine so you must have felt bad. I also don't do well on supplements anymore only fresh well cooked foods. You can try capers to control histamine, silica rich water like fiji or volvic for collagen and to process calcium better.

@xploit316 I already forgot about vitamin E experience. I didn't test my calcium that time, I tell it according to my symptoms. I guess it maybe not calcium deficiency, but something that regulates calcium metabolism - copper or vitamin A, since I feel badly in organs. Or maybe Im still deficient in K..

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Organ meats are high histamine so you must have felt bad. I

I think that @Kadar meant that his internal organs feel bad. Badly ....

 

[L'engle]

@Kadar Seems you're in a similar mess with electrolytes and vitamins, but different enough that it's hard to give any suggestions. I've never had pains from K2, just get tense and wired if I take too much of it. When I have high calcium need I drink goat's milk(cow's milk usually has vitamin d added so something to be aware of). I haven't found a calcium supplement that seemed ok to take.

Good luck!

manganese which I believe activated vitamin D because it gave me permanent magnesium need

I seemed to have the same thing with lithium. It went away when I audited my diet for lithium sources. Maybe a low manganese diet is something to look into? I think the heavier minerals can occupy the storage spots available for magnesium and potassium, making us need those elements. It's a just a theory but I have seen it mentioned in a couple of articles.

 

[Kadar]

@xploit316 yeah I meant pains in my internal organs. But thank you for recommendation of silica water, was wondering about silica lately too

 

[Kadar]

I didn't mean I get pain from K2, only after taking calcium when I feel I'm lacking. No-no, manganese seems essential for me now. When I took high doses of D for 2-3 weeks, I had heavy palpitations and heat in body after meals. The more sugary meal,the heavier they were. I needed high doses of B1 to regulate this. I believe D depleted manganese (through SOD) and later I ve read manganese deficiency leads to diabetes. (Manganese and b1 work together, manganese collects b1 in organs). And manganese worked wonderful with that. I think it is activating D not only because of sudden magnesium need but also because of suddenly increased vitamin A deficiency symptoms (D depletes A) - dry hair and skin, sensitive tooth enamel. A always helps with that.

Manganese require b2 in my experience too. If I take b1 (in benfotiamine form, more potent) together with manganese, need in b2 is sky rocket. Probably because taking b1 or b2 create deficiencies in each other, and manganese keeps b1 very good.
Also, if I take b2 for a long time, I get manganese deficiency symptoms again.
Thanks for reply, @L'engle

 

[xploit316]

Kadar, your experiences resonates mine and Im sure plenty of others on PR forum. Supplements even though help short term, long term effects were either very bad or created some other deficiency/issues. I suspect there may be an issue with calcium channel which I read is common with many CFS/Infections/Adrenal fatigue/Hypothyroid people. VitD and VitK increase serum calcium absorption so this may be giving you issues. What may help is going low calcium, vit d/k and oxalates, and increasing your protein (lean white red meats), potassium (White potatoes are a god send) and manganese (white rice) from foods. I suspect collagen synthesis is hampered in most of us, so silica from fiji water (another great source are bamboo shoots but they are high oxalates) would be something to look at. If anyone on the forum has ideas for natural calcium channel blockers that will be great (I know Magnesium is one) but I personally dont do well on magnesium supplements as it lowers my BP/cortisol more.

 

[Kadar]

@xploit316 magnesium lowered my BP when I was low in vitamin D (11). I was feeling cold from it. Now it makes me warmer (especially noticable when I'm Mg deficient)
Problem with oxalates was fixed by ~300mcg of K2. (well, i think so, because before K2 when I used vit A (A supress K) I had constant palpitations after foods, especially high in oxalates. These palps where fixed by large amounts of copper, but after next meal situation repeated. Now I dont need any copper after using K2)

I'll take a look at your theory (why more protein, btw?), but first I want to change situation with supplements. Maybe vit A and bioavalable copper, still deficient vitamin K2 or selenium. I don't think I need to go low calcium now because i feel symptoms which relieved by calcium (heart palitations, anxiety, leg cramps). I just try to understand why calcium seems to go to muscle tissues too.
Thank you

!Selenium and calcification:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5295377/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00018-005-5313-y
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24390545/

also may be useful:
https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2004/10/05/A-supplement-solution-to-calcification
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15364120/
(Vitamin C, Vitamin B6, Niacin, Folic Acid, Selenium, EDTA, l-Arginine, l-Lysine, l-Ornithine, Bromelain, Trypsin, CoQ10, Grapeseed Extract, Hawthorn Berry, Papain )

 

[xploit316]

Thanks. Which form of K2 did you take (Mk4 or Mk7)? Protein helps utilize calcium.

 

[Kadar]

@xploit316 mk7

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Kadar
So you did try boosting your MK7 ? I'm so glad that you found something that shows some possibilities !!!!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

VitD and VitK increase serum calcium absorption so this may be giving you issues.

Vit D activates serum calcium uptake, without regard to where it goes or how it's used.

MK7 and to a lesser extent MK4 (mostly because MK7 is more heavily researched and has a much longer half life) serve to make sure the serum calcium is escorted to the right bleacher seats, in this case bones and teeth, and not to soft tissues like joints, blood vessels, and arteries, and Lord knows where else.