Buying antibiotics for Lyme online

[Garz]

I found a thread here that was a few years old on this but thought I would ask for more recent info:
I tried posting in the general ME/CFS discussion forum but no response so thought I would try here.

Does anyone have positive experiences buying general antibiotics online from international pharmacies without prescription that ship internationally ( to the UK)?

(by the way - I am not advocating anyone else does this - just seeking feedback from anyone who has done so successfully or otherwise)

 

[Hip]

See this thread.

 

[Garz]

See this thread.

awesome post - thank you Hip. Without some kind of guide or recommendation it is a minefield - so much appreciated.

 

[Carl]

Antibiotics are not effective against persistent Lyme disease. The biofilm forming stationary phase of lyme resists all antibiotics.

Why are you not receiving treatment from your doctor? Will they not test or are the tests not confirming an infection?

I have read a number of research papers on lyme treatment. Essential oils are highly effective against stationary phase lyme and there are a number of herbs which can treat lyme & co-infections.

Susceptibilities of Mycoplasma hominis to herbs. - PubMed - NCBI Che et al, 2005
Mycoplasma is one Lyme co-infection. These herbs also work with other Mycoplasma species.
doi: 10.1142/S0192415X05002862
Selective essential Oils from spice or culinary herbs have high activity against stationary Phase and Biofilm Borrelia burgdorferi Feng et al, 2017
doi: 10.3389/fmed.2017.00169
Identification of Essential Oils with Strong Activity against Stationary Phase Borrelia burgdorferi Feng et al, 2018
doi:10.3390/antibiotics7040089
How to Make Liposomal Essential Oils at Home: Ultrasonic Method Tutorial
BTW Stephen Harrod Buhner has written several books on treating Lyme with herbs and supplements. I did read that copper I is meant to be quite effective.

 

[Garz]

Thanks Carl.
Yes, I have read most of those papers and have all of Stephen Buhner's books on lyme and co-infections and several of his others.

I find very little on this subject is black and white. I interpret the data to indicate Chronic Lyme is difficult to treat - whether with antibiotics or natural substances.
Some practitioners have success with antibiotics - others with herbs etc. Buhner himself is not averse to using antibiotics - even alongside herbs - which is my chosen approach.

My own view is that the immune system is key to recovery as Lyme ( and several of the co-infections) have been shown to be extremely immunosuppressive( eg Mycoplasma Pneumonae and Chlamydia Pneumonae).

This is part of the explanation that antibiotics can be of limited benefit. For instance, as with AIDS patients if the immune system is not working any amount of antimicrobials cannot stop the infections people get. In the end with Lyme and several of the co-infections that form persister cells, the immune system has to do all the mopping up of every last persister, etc. or teh infection can reoccur when the antibiotics are withdrawn.

The NHS doctors have agreed to a "trial" of antibiotics - but it's likely to be inadequate so I am investigating supplementing the course duration or combination.

 

[Hip]

I have read a number of research papers on lyme treatment. Essential oils are highly effective against stationary phase lyme and there are a number of herbs which can treat lyme & co-infections.

Interesting papers, and they suggest it could be worth trying a cocktail of some of the essential oils which have the strongest effects against Borrelia.

Note though that these studies were conducted in vitro, so it is hard to tell whether the antibacterial effects of these essential oils will pan out in vivo, when the oils are taken orally.

When substances are tested in vitro, they use a certain concentration of the substance and observe the effects of that concentration level. But when you take the substance orally, it may not be possible to reach the same concentration in your blood that was employed in vitro. This may be because of bioavailability/absorption issues, or because toxicity factors limit the maximum oral dose you can take, or because the substance may be rapidly metabolized in the body before it can exert its effects. So this is the reason that a substance can work well in vitro, but may not necessarily be useful or effective in vivo.

But if I had Lyme, I would probably try out a cocktail of these essential oils.

 

[percyval577]

Antibiotics are not effective against persistent Lyme disease.

This is my impression too, and from application for long time (half a year and again half a year ...) you might get harmed.

A doctor in the university hospital offered me abx´s (obviously thinking himself that it wouldn´t help), I refused.

The biofilm forming stationary phase of lyme resists all antibiotics.

I thought there are no biofilms of lyme pathogens, and only single borrelia would have been found, and even in small number.


I avoid high manganese food (eating up to 800µg), very slowly but helps greatly over the years.

I havn´t had done a test (western blot) again.

 

[Garz]

Interesting papers, and they suggest it could be worth trying a cocktail of some of the essential oils which have the strongest effects against Borrelia.

Note though that these studies were conducted in vitro, so it is hard to tell whether the antibacterial effects of these essential oils will pan out in vivo, when the oils are taken orally.

When substances are tested in vitro, they use a certain concentration of the substance and observe the effects of that concentration level. But when you take the substance orally, it may not be possible to reach the same concentration in your blood that was employed in vitro. This may be because of bioavailability/absorption issues, or because toxicity factors limit the maximum oral dose you can take, or because the substance may be rapidly metabolized in the body before it can exert its effects. So this is the reason that a substance can work well in vitro, but may not necessarily be useful or effective in vivo.

But if I had Lyme, I would probably try out a cocktail of these essential oils.

I did read that study with interest.
I think all the points you make are valid also.
However, I struggled to find a way to implement it as the dosages that would be required to reach the serum and tissue concentrations similar to those used in the trials. I could not see a way to consume that much of essential oils as they are typically powerful substances and often irritant.

I do however use various herbs in my diet and cooking and supplement with various other herbs per the writings of Buhner and others.

 

[olegsel]

essential oils

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316231/
Lyme disease is the most common vector borne-disease in the United States (US). While the majority of the Lyme disease patients can be cured with 2–4 weeks antibiotic treatment, about 10–20% of patients continue to suffer from persisting symptoms. While the cause of this condition is unclear, persistent infection was proposed as one possibility. It has recently been shown that B. burgdorferi develops dormant persisters in stationary phase cultures that are not killed by the current Lyme antibiotics, and there is interest in identifying novel drug candidates that more effectively kill such forms. We previously identified some highly active essential oils with excellent activity against biofilm and stationary phase B. burgdorferi.Here, we screened another 35 essential oils and found 10 essential oils (Allium sativum L. bulbs, Pimenta officinalis Lindl. berries, Cuminum cyminum L. seeds, Cymbopogon martini var. motia Bruno grass, Commiphora myrrha (T. Nees) Engl. resin, Hedychium spicatum Buch.-Ham. ex Sm. flowers, Amyris balsamifera L. wood, Thymus vulgaris L. leaves, Litsea cubeba (Lour.) Pers. fruits, Eucalyptus citriodoraHook. leaves) and the active component of cinnamon bark cinnamaldehyde (CA) at a low concentration of 0.1% have strong activity against stationary phase B. burgdorferi. At a lower concentration of 0.05%, essential oils of Allium sativum L. bulbs, Pimenta officinalis Lindl. berries, Cymbopogon martini var. motiaBruno grass and CA still exhibited strong activity against the stationary phase B. burgdorferi. CA also showed strong activity against replicating B. burgdorferi, with a MIC of 0.02% (or 0.2 μg/mL). In subculture studies, the top five essential oil hits Allium sativum L. bulbs, Pimenta officinalis Lindl. berries, Commiphora myrrha (T. Nees) Engl. resin, Hedychium spicatum Buch.-Ham. ex Sm. flowers, and Litsea cubeba (Lour.) Pers. fruits completely eradicated all B. burgdorferi stationary phase cells at 0.1%, while Cymbopogon martini var. motia Bruno grass, Eucalyptus citriodora Hook. leaves, Amyris balsamifera L. wood, Cuminum cyminum L. seeds, and Thymus vulgaris L. leaves failed to do so as shown by visible spirochetal growth after 21-day subculture. At concentration of 0.05%, only Allium sativum L. bulbs essential oil and CA sterilized the B. burgdorferi stationary phase culture, as shown by no regrowth during subculture, while Pimenta officinalis Lindl. berries, Commiphora myrrha (T. Nees) Engl. resin, Hedychium spicatum Buch.-Ham. ex Sm. flowers and Litsea cubeba (Lour.) Pers. fruits essential oils all had visible growth during subculture. Future studies are needed to determine if these highly active essential oils could eradicate persistent B. burgdorferi infection in vivo.

 

[percyval577]

I should well say that my big issues developed by a two hits,

a) ticks (very noticible, but not a catastrophy)
b) EBV (25 years later)

So I am not case of neuborreliosis in the sense one may think it.

But I think also that borrelia themself would be rather not a problem b/c they are so few.
I rather think that the problems (esp. the late stage ones) are an effect of borrelia
that has added up over the time b/c of their huge manganese.

I think also that the huge manganses could irritate the immunesystem
in the sense that it would have difficulties to eatimate its success.

In my case, there might have been borrelia when I started with my diet or not,
same now, there still might be some, maybe not, it´s rather unimportant.


(I have read only literature in journals, no books written by XY who wants to sell this or that.)

 

[Hip]

However, I struggled to find a way to implement it as the dosages that would be required to reach the serum and tissue concentrations similar to those used in the trials. I could not see a way to consume that much of essential oils as they are typically powerful substances and often irritant.

According to my calculation below, it should be possible to take around 120 mg of oregano essential oil orally, and achieve high enough concentrations in the blood to fight Borrelia.


The calculation:

In this study they found that the MIC for carvacrol was around 0.25 μg/ml.

MIC = minimum inhibitory concentration = the lowest concentration of an antimicrobial agent that is bacteriostatic (prevents the visible growth of bacteria).

About one third of oregano oil is carvacrol. Ref: here

Using the equations detailed in this post, a ballpark figure for the oral dose of carvacrol required to achieve a concentration of 0.25 μg/ml in the blood would be: 400,000 x 0.25 / ( 50 x (100 - 50)) = 40 mg. Since about one third of oregano oil is carvacrol, this corresponds to an oral dose of 120 mg of oregano essential oil.

(In this equation, I do not know the bioavailability or protein binding of carvacrol, so I am guessing figures of 50% for both of these).

 

[Cipher]

Disulfiram is something that might be of interest. It seems to be able to kill the persistent forms of Borrelia burgdorferi. Until recently there were only in vitro evidence, but now there is starting to come some small anecdotal evidence for its effects, and it's very promising. More info can be found here and here.

 

[Garz]

thanks for the calculation link Hip.
It's interesting, and I know it's only intended as a ballpark start point but I'm having trouble reconciling the maths with logic.
A similar later study by the same authors I think - was the one I had in mind - it looked at further essential oils for their effects on "stationary phase" Borrelia (which I think refer to Persister forms that are believed to be a key borrelial mechanism involved in keeping chronic lyme patients ill).
They expressed the concentrations of the oils used as % making the calculation a bit more straightforward ( as molecular weights not needed )
full article here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6316231/
with this excerpt showing those with the highest activity.

Effect of active essential oils on stationary phase B. burgdorferi. A 1 mL B. burgdorferi stationary phase culture (seven-day old) was treated with 0.1% (A) or 0.05% (B) essential oils (labeled on the image) in 1.5 mL Eppendorf tubes for 7 days followed by staining with SYBR Green I/PI viability assay and fluorescence microscopy.

if we were to make the following assumptions:
1, that to treat a chronic Borrelia infection, you would need to reach similar concentrations to the study
2, and that this concentration would need to be achieved in all patient tissues (due to the organisms known ability to infect any tissue, and particularly protected niches in the body such as intracellular compartments, cartilage, skin, aqueous humor in the eye etc etc) - not just blood / serum
3, that the human body is approx 80% solvents of some kind within which the volatile oils or their components can be dissolved or dispersed -
4, that this 80& of body mass would become the total effective solvent mass in the equation.
5, assume some mid-range figure for bioavailability - say 50% as in the previous example

we would then calculate a very different rough and ready amount of volatile oil needed.
eg

I guess this approach assumes uniform dispersion throughout all tissues (in reality i know drugs vary dramatically in how well they do this some stay in teh blood more than others - but for chronic Lyme it is exactly what you would prefer) - and that the body excretes or transforms about the same amount that is absorbed each day. Which seems a reasonable place to start.

I have not read into the pharmacokinetics of volatile oils in any detail - so am coming at this subject cold - but generally, I like to sanity check any calculation method for an order of magnitude result vs a rational approach from first principles to see how well they agree and try to understand major differences if they exist.

I'm not saying my rough and ready method is correct - just that the differences between the two concern me a little.

I guess there are a lot of variables we do not know and perhaps the 2 calculations represent upper and lower limits of where it's possible the true value lies. But this is how I came to the conclusion it might be difficult to do in practice.

On the other hand, it could well be that essential oils, even at much lower than in-vitro study concentrations inhibit cellular functions of borrelia and possibly even that a cocktail of such compounds could be effective in weakening cell walls or other essential functions of the spirochete if used as adjuncts to antibiotics or other natural bactericidals ( This use as an adjunct to ABX is the one I was most interested in).

btw - I am open to it - and I have even taken a very high-quality oregano essential oil at around 9 drops a day for a few weeks to try to treat suspected dysbiosis - but unfortunately without obvious benefit to any of the symptoms (gut or systemic) at that time ( now belive it was Lyme disease all along). As I recall I discontinued due to the lack of perceived benefit and also concerns that concentrated oregano oil might be damaging to the gut if sustained. I think i read that from some reputable source at the time - but it's long ago now.

 

[percyval577]

Disulfiram is something that might be of interest. It seems to be able to kill the persistent forms of Borrelia burgdorferi. Until recently there were only in vitro evidence, but now there is starting to come some small anecdotal evidence for its effects ...

Seems to be a potent molecule.

Liegner 2019 pdf page 13:

B. burgdorferi has been shown to require zinc and manganese as co-factors for key biological processes [107,108]. It is possible that disulfiram’s high avidity for metal ions [85] may inhibit microbial metabolism.

Disulfiram has been shown to have anti-mycobacterial properties [109] and to have good in vitro activity against multi-drug resistant Staphylococcus aureus [110]. Disulfiram-derived disulfides were found to have antibacterial properties [111].

Disulfiram has demonstrated anti-parasitic activity against giardia [112], malaria [113], leishmaniasis [114], and trypanosomiasis [115].

Detailed physico–chemical studies have suggested interdigitation of folded protein structures as a specific mechanism of the inhibitory action of disulfiram in giardiasis [112].

Any role for disulfiram in children, with their incompletely matured nervous systems, remains to be determined and should be approached with caution,...

 

[Garz]

Disulfiram is something that might be of interest. It seems to be able to kill the persistent forms of Borrelia burgdorferi. Until recently there were only in vitro evidence, but now there is starting to come some small anecdotal evidence for its effects, and it's very promising. More info can be found here and here.

Thanks, Cipher. Yes, I remember reading a study about that a year or so ago - just the one paper at that time i think. May well look into it again

Horowitz has also published papers on his formal trials of a leprosy/tuberculosis drug called Dapsone for resistant Lyme disease - and I saw a presentation he gave quite recently where he really thought the combination of doxycycline, rifampicin and dapsone was the answer he had been looking for for years for his most treatment-resistant patients. Unfortunately it is not without its side effects - some of them potentially serious and so needs to be managed carefully.

There was also a study on a drug called desloratadine ( actually an already FDA approved antihistamine ) that had been shown to be bactericidal to lyme spirochetes in high concentrations killing them outright.
Now, lots of things do that, but what was of more interest was that even in lower concentrations it seemed to interfere with the organisms ability to form viable cyst forms - something that a high proportion of live borrelia do when challenged by antibiotics and one of its main strategies for defeating them, as these cells are highly resistant to most antibiotics so far tested. Instead, they formed malformed shapes or cells with damaged cell walls. It seems it did this by interfering with the borrelia's ability to absorb and utilize manganese - on which several of its key defenses seem to rely. It is therefore believed( hoped?) this may make the drug a useful adjunct to antibiotic or other antimicrobials. This one at least has a low side effect profile.

 

[Garz]

OK so - back on topic - went for the buy-pharma-md site and ordered the antibiotics I had targeted.
all seemed very efficient and expect delivery in 7-21days to UK.
Will feedback around that time.
Thank you everyone for your contributions.

 

[Garz]

update - my order arrived yesterday - approx 10days from placing the order and much faster than expected.

The items were well packaged - in a strong double layer outer cardboard box - and then - bubble wrap - and then each type of antibiotic was packed in its original packaging inside a ziplock bag.

All the medicines are present and as expected - ie the brand I ordered (mainly generic Indian brands)

The customs label read "healthcare product" and showed no signs of having attracted customs attention.

overall a very efficient service and a very reasonable price compared to many other sites.

thank you very much to Hip for his review page - without which the exercise would have been a crapshoot.

 

[Rlman]

update - my order arrived yesterday - approx 10days from placing the order and much faster than expected.

The items were well packaged - in a strong double layer outer cardboard box - and then - bubble wrap - and then each type of antibiotic was packed in its original packaging inside a ziplock bag.

All the medicines are present and as expected - ie the brand I ordered (mainly generic Indian brands)

The customs label read "healthcare product" and showed no signs of having attracted customs attention.

overall a very efficient service and a very reasonable price compared to many other sites.

thank you very much to Hip for his review page - without which the exercise would have been a crapshoot.

Hey , how is abx going?

 

[Tella]

Thanks Carl.
Yes, I have read most of those papers and have all of Stephen Buhner's books on lyme and co-infections and several of his others.

I find very little on this subject is black and white. I interpret the data to indicate Chronic Lyme is difficult to treat - whether with antibiotics or natural substances.
Some practitioners have success with antibiotics - others with herbs etc. Buhner himself is not averse to using antibiotics - even alongside herbs - which is my chosen approach.

My own view is that the immune system is key to recovery as Lyme ( and several of the co-infections) have been shown to be extremely immunosuppressive( eg Mycoplasma Pneumonae and Chlamydia Pneumonae).

This is part of the explanation that antibiotics can be of limited benefit. For instance, as with AIDS patients if the immune system is not working any amount of antimicrobials cannot stop the infections people get. In the end with Lyme and several of the co-infections that form persister cells, the immune system has to do all the mopping up of every last persister, etc. or teh infection can reoccur when the antibiotics are withdrawn.

The NHS doctors have agreed to a "trial" of antibiotics - but it's likely to be inadequate so I am investigating supplementing the course duration or combination.

How did u get tested for it? Aren’t there no tests for it?

 

[Garz]

Hey , how is abx going?

hi, so far I have been taking only doxycycline 100mg 2x a day - for around 13weeks. I have some significant improvement, especially in energy, which was my most profound symptom, and had been debilitating for around 5 years - so the most significant change since getting ill.