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Bhupesh Prusty: "we are on a perfect path for identifying potential transferable factors in ME/CFS blood that can cause mito dysfunction..." GoFundMe

wabi-sabi

Senior Member
Messages
1,489
Location
small town midwest
This seems like a very significant statement which leaves me feeling a bit outraged, again- at our abandonment by clinicians and actual doctors who treat patients.
Unfortunately this isn't just about us. There's lots of references on any new research taking (on average) 17 years to make it into clinical practice. That probably varies in different fields and different research, but it sure feels like medicine is a snail sometimes.
 

Treeman

Senior Member
Messages
792
Location
York, England
Unfortunately this isn't just about us. There's lots of references on any new research taking (on average) 17 years to make it into clinical practice. That probably varies in different fields and different research, but it sure feels like medicine is a snail sometimes.

The reason the research is not getting to mainstream medicine is because of the unequal societies we live in. The research needs better funding. Large scale research with hundreds and thousands of subjects are needed, in Prusty’s research he has about 15 people.

The U.K. has got the largest inequality since the 1930’s. The top strata in society are getting wealthy whilst the lower strata’s are getting poorer. There is a company called Persimmon Homes in the U.K. who’s CEO has just announced he is leaving the company after 2 years in post. His financial rewards for that 2 years work is £30 million!! There are estimated to be around 250,000 ME/CFS sufferers in the U.K., can you imagine what that £30 million could have done to help them and other sufferers around the world?

We live in societies that values the acquisition of extreme amounts of wealth for individuals over the health and wellbeing of its majority citizens. If we want a cure for ME/CFS within our life time we also need more equal societies.
 

stefanosstef

Senior Member
Messages
528
The reason the research is not getting to mainstream medicine is because of the unequal societies we live in. The research needs better funding. Large scale research with hundreds and thousands of subjects are needed, in Prusty’s research he has about 15 people.

The U.K. has got the largest inequality since the 1930’s. The top strata in society are getting wealthy whilst the lower strata’s are getting poorer. There is a company called Persimmon Homes in the U.K. who’s CEO has just announced he is leaving the company after 2 years in post. His financial rewards for that 2 years work is £30 million!! There are estimated to be around 250,000 ME/CFS sufferers in the U.K., can you imagine what that £30 million could have done to help them and other sufferers around the world?

We live in societies that values the acquisition of extreme amounts of wealth for individuals over the health and wellbeing of its majority citizens. If we want a cure for ME/CFS within our life time we also need more equal societies.

That can't be true.When we are talking about absolute (and not relative) poverty I can't imagine any western country having increasing rates.It is dropping actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom
 

Treeman

Senior Member
Messages
792
Location
York, England
That can't be true.When we are talking about absolute (and not relative) poverty I can't imagine any western country having increasing rates.It is dropping actually.

You have highlighted poverty, I talked about inequality, they’re not the same thing.

“The UK has a very high level of income inequality compared to other developed countries”

https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

https://hbr.org/2018/09/research-ho...ically-increased-wealth-inequality-in-the-u-s
 
Last edited:

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,494
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
To me the mitochondrial dysfunction is easy to understand. Herpetic virus infected cells upregulate Nf-kb and shut off the Kreb's cycle so ME patients lose their ability for aerobic glycolysis and are stuck in anaerobic. This reduces their APT by 90%. The more cells affected the bigger the energy drain. Also, these cells are chronically inflammed which wastes energy on an abortive immune response. The question is how to get rid of these cells and replace them with healthy ones in a way that prevents relapse. Focusing on the mitos ignores the underlying cause of the problem.
 

Badpack

Senior Member
Messages
382
@gbells because it is proven again and again that there is highly probably no chronic (herpetic) virus infection. Just a state of metabolic dysfunction that looks like one. So focusing on the mitos is the absolute perfect thing to do right now because the underlying cause is unknown.
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,494
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
@gbells because it is proven again and again that there is highly probably no chronic (herpetic) virus infection. Just a state of metabolic dysfunction that looks like one. So focusing on the mitos is the absolute perfect thing to do right now because the underlying cause is unknown.

Where do you get this from? (cite)

Also, there was a typo. It should have said ATP.
 

Badpack

Senior Member
Messages
382
@gbells

Ron Davis made a PCR virus assay. There were none. If you don't find a virus with a PCR, its highly likely this virus doesn't play a role.


Also he made a particle search for possible new viruses. Found nothing. Also quite the opposite happened. The number of the baseline virus particles was lower than the healthy control group. Which means the Cfs body is in a highly antiviral state. Reason unknown. This is the exact same thing Prusty showed. The body is an extreme antiviral state. No virus can grow.


So there is 2 possible ways now, Either there is an unknown virus hiding in the body. Not attacked by the immune system at all, because no DNA/RNA in the blood, which somehow nearly kills us while not in any cell to be found. Or, which seems way more likely, the body and the immune system does it on its own. A circulus vitiosus followed after a real viral infection at the start of Cfs.

So im way more interested in breaking this circulus vitiosus by treating the mitochondria with something like SS31. To break the forced mitochondria fission by the body. The body which thinks there is a real threat, while there is none.

But everyone should make up their own idea with the data presented at the moment.
 

andyguitar

Moderator
Messages
6,610
Location
South east England
@andyguitar well, i would advise no one to take antiviral drugs for Cfs
Me neither. But as there are some reports of improvements after taking them it's a bit of a puzzle as to why that might be. I have looked to see if any of them have novel effects but have yet to come up with anything that convinced me they do. But I expect thats what it is. An unknown effect.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Me neither. But as there are some reports of improvements after taking them it's a bit of a puzzle as to why that might be. I have looked to see if any of them have novel effects but have yet to come up with anything that convinced me they do. But I expect thats what it is. An unknown effect.

I think they might have some affect on the immune system too, as @Badpack has said. As an anti-inflammatory or immune modulator in some people.
 

MonkeyMan

Senior Member
Messages
405
Not sure if this has been posted already, but this seems to tie in Prusty's work with Jarred Younger's.

https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/11/512/eaaz3714

Mitochondria fragments fuel the fire of neuroinflammation

Gilbert Gallardo

Science Translational Medicine 02 Oct 2019:
Vol. 11, Issue 512, eaaz3714
DOI: 10.1126/scitranslmed.aaz3714


Abstract
Mitochondrial fragmentation in glial cells appears to induce an inflammatory state capable of propagating.
The mitochondria are organelles in cells that perform cellular respiration, providing the necessary energy for cellular functions. Extensive evidence from clinical studies to animal models suggest mitochondrial fission leading to fragmentation plays a critical role in several degenerative diseases, including Alzheimer's disease (AD), amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), and Huntington's disease (HD). Excess production of dynamin-related protein (Drp1)–induced mitochondrial fission is also a pathological feature in mouse models of AD, ALS, and HD. Inhibiting the binding of Drp1 to mitochondrial fission 1 (Fis1) with a heptapeptide (P110) has been shown to slow disease progression in these mouse models.
These studies have provided evidence for mitochondrial fragmentation as a critical component of the neurodegenerative process. To investigate the role mitochondrial fragmentation plays in neuroinflammation, Joshi et al. subjected P110-treated samples in mouse models of AD, ALS, or HD to histological analyses for astrocytic and microglial markers, revealing that gliosis was suppressed. Inflammatory gene expression analyses corroborated that P110 treatment inhibited neuroinflammation. Studies in the microglial cell line BV2, expressing mutant SOD1-G93A as a model for ALS, or a long track of neurotoxic polyglutamine (Q73) as a model for HD, revealed mitochondrial fragmentation and increased cytokine production. Similarly, treating microglia with oligomeric β-amyloid as a model for AD induced mitochondrial fragmentation and microglial activation. Conversely, P110 treatment attenuated the mitochondrial fragmentation and suppressed activation, suggesting mitochondria fragmentation drives microglia activation. Secreted dysfunctional mitochondria were present in activated microglial-conditioned media (MCM), and treating primary astrocytes with MCM led to mitochondrial fragmentation and an activation state putatively termed A1. These features were also attenuated by P110 treatment. Activated astrocytes also secreted dysfunctional mitochondria and transferring conditioned media to primary neurons evoked neuronal damage. To evaluate the contribution of dysfunctional mitochondria on neuronal damage, the authors filtered out mitochondria particles from the activated astrocyte-conditioned media, which lessened the neuronal cell death.
These analyses suggested the propagation of the inflammatory response from microglia to astrocytes are in part mediated by mitochondria fragments, which in turn spur a neurotoxic response. Future studies should evaluate the effects of reactive astrocytes on microglia as the neuroinflammatory system is a network of signals. It is important to stress that there are likely several distinct populations of astrocytes, and clarity is needed before fully understanding their reactivity. It is imperative that further studies should determine if this mechanism recapitulates in vivo as these studies are cell-cultured based.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,946
not sure if antiretroviral is the solution though, it doesn't protect HIV people from neuropathy... (and maybe it can trigger it)

Mitochondrial dysfunctions in HIV infection and antiviral drug treatment
Krishna Kumar Ganta &Binay Chaubey
12 Nov 2019,

ABSTRACT

Introduction: With the introduction of highly active anti-retroviral therapy (HAART), treatment of HIV infection has improved radically, shifting the concept of HIV disease from a highly mortal epidemic to a chronic illness which needs systematic management. However, HAART does not target the integrated proviral DNA. Hence, prolonged use of antiviral drugs is needed for sustaining life. As a consequence, severe side effects emerge. Several parameters involve in causing these adverse effects. Mitochondrial dysfunctions were pointed as common factor among them. It is, therefore, necessary to critically examine mitochondrial dysfunction in order to understand the side effects.

Areas covered: There are many events involved in causing drug-induced side-effects; in this review, we only highlight mitochondrial dysfunctions as one of the events. We present up-to-date findings on mitochondrial dysfunction caused by HIV infection and antiviral drug treatment. Both in vivo and in vitro studies on mitochondrial dysfunction like change in morphology, membrane depolarization, mitophagy, mitochondrial DNA depletion, and intrinsic apoptosis have been discussed.

Expert opinion: Mitochondrial dysfunction is associated with severe complications that often lead to discontinuation or change in treatment regimen.
Prior knowledge of side effects of antiviral drugs would help in better management and future research should focus to avoid mitochondrial targeting of antiviral drugs while maintaining their antiviral properties.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17425255.2019.1692814?journalCode=iemt20
 

Treeman

Senior Member
Messages
792
Location
York, England
This is the exact same thing Prusty showed. The body is an extreme antiviral state. No virus can grow.
This isn't the case for all ME/CFS sufferers. A lot state they never get colds, some others like me get every cold going and they are more severe. I know this points to subsets. Some people have been cured by anti viral treatments.
 

Badpack

Senior Member
Messages
382
@Treeman if you throw big words around like cured, you better have some studies or at least personal reports to cite to show that even one person got cured from using antivirals. I know none.