Betaine HCl, stimulating after evening meal.

[Avalon]

I've been experimenting over the past several days, I take betaine HCL for acid reflux, I noticed that I get mental stimulation and more energy after my evenings meal when I've taken a tablet. So I tested this observation by having evenings were I donot take Betaine HCl, low and behold I do not get the mental stimulation. Has anyone else found this to be the case as I do not want act as a stimulant, just want Betaine HCL to help my acid reflux!

 

[adreno]

Betaine is a source of TMG, a methyl donor.

 

[PointsNorth]

Try just pure BETAINE (TMG) without Hcl. I found that it produces a phenomenal high!

P

 

[Critterina]

Two things could be happening. You could be getting better nutrition out of your food. Or it could be the TMG methyl donor effect. Surprising that you would use it for acid reflux, as it is often used to increase stomach acid for those of us with incomplete digestion.

 

[perchance dreamer]

What's helped the most for my reflux is Limonene. It makes me sleepy, so I take it at night.

It's a little hard on an empty stomach, so I eat a spoonful of plain yogurt with it. It does work over time, so it takes awhile to get relief from reflux, but it's great stuff. I use Jarrow:

http://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formul...id=1412440117&sr=8-1&keywords=jarrow+limonene

 

[Martial]

Two things could be happening. You could be getting better nutrition out of your food. Or it could be the TMG methyl donor effect. Surprising that you would use it for acid reflux, as it is often used to increase stomach acid for those of us with incomplete digestion.

Most cases of acid reflux have actually been tied to low stomach acid, its just still in an old mindset of treatment for certain health care workers.

 

[Hip]

I actually get depression when I take betaine HCl with my meals, and I think this is due to the trimethylglycine (TMG) contained within the betaine HCl molecule.

If I take a citric acid capsules with my meal instead of betaine HCl (citric acid also serves to increase stomach acid levels), then I do not get the depression.

So I think it is TMG, a methyl donor, that makes me depressed. I also get depression when I take the supplement SAMe (S-Adenosyl-L-Methionine), which is another methyl donor.

 

[whodathunkit]

Most cases of acid reflux have actually been tied to low stomach acid, its just still in an old mindset of treatment for certain health care workers.

I second Martial. Low acid causes reflux because the undigested food sits in your stomach longer, mixing with what little acid is there, and then if you have a damaged/weak "valve" or whatever, the chyme can percolate back up into your esophagus.

Sadly, the ubiquitous anti-acids we have on hand only make the problem worse, even while eliminating the symptoms. But over time many find they have to take increasing amounts of anti-acids to achieve symptom relief. The undigested food thing is why.

I did not believe this and resisted my doctor's advice to take digestive aids for a long time. Reason being that pure betaine HCL would usually give me worse heartburn. But when I finally found the right digestive supplements, it helped immensely.

It's like everything else, different strokes. Betaine HCL works for some people. I had to use milder supplements.

After the right course of therapy I no longer get heartburn, even when I overeat.

FWIW, after my methylation experience with TMG I wouldn't ever use anything with betaine in it after probably 3p in the afternoon. Zoom!!

 

[BadBadBear]

I had metabolic acidosis when I was using high amts of betaine HCL. I don't know if it is related, but I have not dared to try straight betaine HCL again (there's a bottle of it sitting around should I grow a pair and want to try it again).

Currently I use Super Enzymes from NOW, which have a little bit of it, and several other types of digestive helpers - ox bile, the normal enzymes, pancreatin, etc. I feel like it works better, and I'm not OD'd on betaine. I definitely need ongoing digestive support...

 

[whodathunkit]

The Super Enzymes from NOW are good and much gentler than straight betaine HCL. I can also use that one.

The best one, though, IMO...the one that got me over the hump of acid reflux, if you will, is "Zypan" by Standard Process. Works very well.

 

[perchance dreamer]

Zypan did work well for me, but I had to discontinue it because it was constipating. It gets great user reviews, though, so it must be an uncommon reaction.

 

[whodathunkit]

perchance, I didn't have that reaction. It worked well for me. Weird. I wonder what caused it for you?

 

[perchance dreamer]

I don't know, but my nutritionist and PA both said a few patients had told them the same thing. I didn't find any online mention, though.

 

[Avalon]

What's helped the most for my reflux is Limonene. It makes me sleepy, so I take it at night.

It's a little hard on an empty stomach, so I eat a spoonful of plain yogurt with it. It does work over time, so it takes awhile to get relief from reflux, but it's great stuff. I use Jarrow:

http://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-D-Limonene-1000mg-60-Soft/dp/B0025PX4JC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412440117&sr=8-1&keywords=jarrow limonene

Thanks I will check that out, LPR & acid reflux are not pleasant so anything that might make eating more enjoyable again. Limonene looks very interesting, it must acidifying.

 

[Avalon]

OK, so betaine hcl is acting as a methyl group in similar way to mfolate. So it looks like I will either have to adjust dosage or stop completely if I take m12 at the same time.

Yes I also have NOW super enzymes which are good, Zypan looks interesting. I do seem to have problems with fats particularly, so it may be that i need to move to a fat only digesting supplement, I wounder if my snps predispose me to digestion problems.

 

[whodathunkit]

Did you have digestion problems when you were younger? Or did they just crop up as you aged?

 

[Avalon]

Did you have digestion problems when you were younger? Or did they just crop up as you aged?

Thanks for your reply.
Always had it, bloating wind, but has become worse as I have gotten older. IBS was diagnosed and told keep away from resistant starches. Lates LPR was diagnosed, the digestive enzymes help and eating 3 -4 hours before bed. I'm hoping hydroxy b12, folinic acid will help as well as probiotics. Although I have stopped all supplements due to pending blood draw on Thursday for the Nutreval test, hopefully the test will give a steer on the functional front.

 

[liverock]

OK, so betaine hcl is acting as a methyl group in similar way to mfolate. So it looks like I will either have to adjust dosage or stop completely if I take m12 at the same time.

Yes I also have NOW super enzymes which are good, Zypan looks interesting. I do seem to have problems with fats particularly, so it may be that i need to move to a fat only digesting supplement, I wounder if my snps predispose me to digestion problems.

Hi Avalon
You have MTRR/MTR mutations which will cause lower B12 levels. From your gut symptoms it could also be you have the h pyroli stomach bug which among other things lowers stomach acid and B12 absorption.

This would cause a large imbalance between Mb12 and methylfolate which could cause'methyl trapping' and some of your symptoms when you attempt to take more folate, as well as causing very poor methylation.

Methylation doesn't work very well with gut problems, and I think you would be advised to have an h pyroli test from your doctor, if you have not already had one (insist on a blood serum test they are the most accurate).

Caledonia's 4R Gut Rebuiding Programme available on her signature will also help.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-4r-gut-rebuilding-program-summary.25761/

Increasing the MB12 intake will help to crank up the MTRR/MTR although some people need take quite high levels of Mb12 to get the cycle moving.

Heres a diagram of the problem.

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Outcomes-Non-CV-Autism-Methyl Cycle.htm#MTRR: Methionine Synthase Reductase


MTR Up Regulation (+) and MTRR Down Regulation (+)

"This combination produces a double whammy on methyl-B12. You can’t make it well because MTRR is not functioning well, and any B12 that you do make gets sucked up by the overactive MTR. Here the need to supplement with B12 is greatest." (Heartfixer's comments)

Taking Hcl probably caused the TMG to ramp up methyl by bypassing these mutations using the BHMT short route pathway.

 

[Avalon]

Hi Avalon
You have MTRR/MTR mutations which will cause lower B12 levels. From your gut symptoms it could also be you have the h pyroli stomach bug which among other things lowers stomach acid and B12 absorption.

This would cause a large imbalance between Mb12 and methylfolate which could cause'methyl trapping' and some of your symptoms when you attempt to take more folate, as well as causing very poor methylation.

Methylation doesn't work very well with gut problems, and I think you would be advised to have an h pyroli test from your doctor, if you have not already had one (insist on a blood serum test they are the most accurate).

Caledonia's 4R Gut Rebuiding Programme available on her signature will also help.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-4r-gut-rebuilding-program-summary.25761/

Increasing the MB12 intake will help to crank up the MTRR/MTR although some people need take quite high levels of Mb12 to get the cycle moving.

Heres a diagram of the problem.

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Outcomes-Non-CV-Autism-Methyl Cycle.htm#MTRR: Methionine Synthase Reductase


MTR Up Regulation (+) and MTRR Down Regulation (+)

"This combination produces a double whammy on methyl-B12. You can’t make it well because MTRR is not functioning well, and any B12 that you do make gets sucked up by the overactive MTR. Here the need to supplement with B12 is greatest." (Heartfixer's comments)

Taking Hcl probably caused the TMG to ramp up methyl by bypassing these mutations using the BHMT short route pathway.

@liverock, thank you for very informative advice, I am at a stage were my brain is mush, I can't think straight, so you have pointed me in the right direction, very kind!. I have now made a note in my log about HCL Betaine.

As part of LPR/acid reflux problems I had various test including Pyroli which came back negative, I have been taking on and off probiotic @30 billions cfu per capsule. I am realising that the gut has major roll to play and have reduced gluten food by 80%. I will read gut rebuilding link.
The double whammy, is specific to +/+ rather +/-, I can't work it out ?

 

[BadBadBear]

If you are gluten sensitive, it only takes trace amounts to cause problems (DH is celiac, I am sensitive to gluten and don't consume it). I can't really see any point to being only 80% gluten free. I don't think you will realize the benefits unless you go 100% gluten free.