B-12 - The Hidden Story

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Hi, DrD and freddd.

Folinic acid is normally convertable into forms of folate coenzymes that are not accessible using 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate unless the methionine synthase reaction is running well, to convert it to tetrahydrofolate. In CFS, the methionine synthase reaction is partially blocked, so this conversion doesn't go as fast as it normally would.

Other coenzyme forms of folate produce thymidylate, which is needed to make new DNA, and they also produce components of the purines, which are needed for both DNA and RNA as well as other important substances, such as ATP, and finally they also assist in the conversion of histidine to glutamate, which is partially blocked at figlu (formiminoglutamate) in CFS.

The DAN! doctors use folinic acid for treating autism, and Amy Yasko uses both folinic and FolaPro (Metafolin or 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate). In my hypothesis, autism and CFS share the same problem with the partial methylation cycle block and glutathione depletion, so the same treatments are effective for both.

I think there is an advantage to supporting these other uses of folate while the methionine synthase reaction is still struggling to come up to normal operation.

Best regards,

Rich
thanks.

Metafolin is basicially L-methylfolate, correct? I noticed that folate has 2 active diastereroisomers, 6(S)-5-MTHF or L-methylfolate (the primary active form, transported acrros the mebranes) and 6(R)-5MTHF (D-methylfolate) which interferes with L-methylfolate bioavailability. I assume these products purify the L-methylfolate to strip out most of the D-methylfolate.

The Solar product that many of us are taking on the Freddd protocol (which looks to be out of stock currently on iherb) is L-methylfolate-Metafolin.

Is there a signficant difference between metafolin/L-methylfolate and L-5MTHF in the Metagenics Actifolate product?


I also noticed 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate (folinic acid) in the Actifolate product (Metagenics). It regulates homocysteine remethylation, but not a lot is known about it relative to metabolism. Do you have any informaiton on its role in metabolism and in the methylation cycle? You had mentioned involvement in the producing components of the purines, which are needed for both DNA and RNA. From what i have read, folinic acid woudld be a more direct way to achieve this. (where dihydrofolate reductase inhibition is present)
 

Freddd

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thanks.

Metafolin is basicially L-methylfolate, correct? I noticed that folate has 2 active diastereroisomers, 6(S)-5-MTHF or L-methylfolate (the primary active form, transported acrros the mebranes) and 6(R)-5MTHF (D-methylfolate) which interferes with L-methylfolate bioavailability. I assume these products purify the L-methylfolate to strip out most of the D-methylfolate.

The Solar product that many of us are taking on the Freddd protocol (which looks to be out of stock currently on iherb) is L-methylfolate-Metafolin.

Is there a signficant difference between metafolin/L-methylfolate and L-5MTHF in the Metagenics Actifolate product?


I also noticed 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate (folinic acid) in the Actifolate product (Metagenics). It regulates homocysteine remethylation, but not a lot is known about it relative to metabolism. Do you have any informaiton on its role in metabolism and in the methylation cycle? You had mentioned involvement in the producing components of the purines, which are needed for both DNA and RNA. From what i have read, folinic acid woudld be a more direct way to achieve this. (where dihydrofolate reductase inhibition is present)
Hi DrD,

Metafolin is basicially L-methylfolate, correct?

I will clarify one thing. Metafolin is exactly L-methyfolate. The reason it is patented by Merck has to do with the process. They developed a method that produced a stable l-methylfolate. There is a lot of differences by brand amongst b12s. I don't know about the folates. Merck has strict standards for any marketers of Metafolin that it must come up to the full strength (per mcg) and purity of the prescription product. I have had excellent results with Metafolin but can't speak as to the effectivness of other l-methylfolate products made via different processes.

I would not expect that they would go out of the way to emphasize the stability of their product and spend hundreds of millions in developing the method and doing pharmaceutical testing of the results if it were not a potential problem with other products. No other form of l-methylfolate has undergone the rigorous clinical testing as a pharmaceutical product that Metafolin has undergone. Vitamins don't have to be "proven" and they are not even checked for purity and potency. With mb12 sublinguals we found at least a 100x difference between brands of nominally the same dose and substance.
 

Freddd

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I mean faith as in believing in the treatment enough in order to stick it out what I perceived to be a worsening of my symptoms after trying B12.

My symptoms are: extreme fatigue, lightheadedness, sore muscles, brainfog, insomnia, cold hands and feet during the winter. And I got carpel tunnel syndrome a few years before CFS. The rest of my symptoms I had since childhood are: anxiety (but have recently overcome much of it), poor memory, seasonal allergies, eye sensitivity to light, and eczema.

My doctor can't seem to find the root of my problem. The only that that has ever came up in testing, is low Vitamin D. And I've been taking 5,000iu a day. Which hasn’t really improved anything for me.

I've already spent too much money in supplements, so would rather wait before buying even more. I also have some that I've already ordered that didn't come in yet. Which are Solgar Folate Metafolin, and Jarrow B-Right.

I'm taking a Multivitamin, Vitamin D, Magnesium Citrate, and a bunch of other supplments. The B12 that I took was called Advanced B-12, and is a combination of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. I took half a pill for roughly one week and just stopped today. The reason is that I do in fact feel that I have been getting worse from taking it.
Hi Tal,

And here we are at that juncture where, because of the unfamiliar and not tested by me product when I can't be sure of what is going on. Methylb12 is relatively unstable compared to hycbl and cycbl. It breaks down rapidly from light exposure. Adb12 is even less stable. The qualities of mb12 can vary by the batch of the crystal itself with which the end product is manufactured. I don't know about adb12 lacking the same quantity of experience and the lack of availability of many brands for comparative testing.

If you were taking Jarrow or Enzymatic Therapy methylb12 and Country Life adb12 I would assure you that the normal startup responses of mb12 and to a lesser extent, adb12, is an intensifcation of all the many symptoms. Also, many experience a rapid changing of characterization of the symptoms. It might seem like the things are getting worse. With the known qualities of the mentioned b12s I could be sure that was happening. Unfortunately with cycbl and hycbl while they may benefit some percentage of the symptoms, an even larger percentage will get worse over time. For some people with a borderline methylation capacity the first few doses of cycbl and hycbl can finsih sutting down the methylation process causing immediate genuine worsening of symptoms. Methylb12 and adb12 don't do this. Often I have suggested that one be started and then the other to separate the startup response of the two different b12s and make them a little easier to bear by not getting hit with everything at once.

extreme fatigue, lightheadedness, sore muscles, brainfog, insomnia... anxiety (but have recently overcome much of it), poor memory, seasonal allergies, eye sensitivity to light, and eczema.

These are all frequent symptoms of b12 deficiencies. I too used to have very high light sensitivity, season allergies and a photo-allergic sneezing from bright light glints. There can be impaired circulation to hands and feet caused by certain neuropathic situations which can cause cold hands and feet but there are also other causes of this as with most b12 deficiency symptoms. Overall "being cold" all the time is a common b12 deficiency symptom as well.

As most all of b12 deficiency symptoms are "non-specific" which causes them to generally be ignored by doctors they also puzzle doctors as the various nonspecific symptoms affect all kinds of different systems of the body and don't seem connected unless one looks a little deeper. So with muscle pain for instance there can be multiple causes of multiple kinds of pain. There can be pain caused by the muscles becoming exhausted by constant contraction/tightness eventually exhausting the capacity to continue functioning as the adb12 is exhausted no longer producing ATP. They can produce lactic acid becoming burningly sore. The can be sore because of inability to repair and grow new muscle cells by virtue of no adb12 for the mitochondria and no mb12 for the DNA replication so that muscles suffer the same fate as the epithelial tissues that become unable to maintain themselves causing inflamed lungs, broken down skin, muscous menbrane changes resulting in inflammation and thick sticky mucous, IBS, nausea etc, neurological changes causing muscle pain via a number of possible mechanisms, hypersensitivity to chemicals, drugs and foods, neurological changes affecting circulation, hypersensitive reactions causing allergies and asthma, impaired neurological functioning and changes causing poor memory, cognitive changes, hallucinations, psychosis, personality and mood changes, anxiety, paranoia and so forth.

The key is that b12 deficiencies do affect all the different areas of the body otherwise seemingly unrelated. The famous triad of hallmark symptoms are a "beef-red burning tongue" (epithelial breakdown from lack of mb12 for methylation in DNA transactions), "severe abnormal fatigue" (mitochondrial malfunction from lack of adb12) and "tingling hands and/or feet" (peripheral neuropathy or impaired neurological function).

It is sort of like choose one symptom from the epithelial breakdown column, choose one symptom from the neurological breakdown column and severe fatigue from the mitochondrial breakdown column. The fatigue can also be centrally mediated becasue of certain neurological changes.

You have multiple symptoms from each column and seem to fit very clearly the form of the triad of symptoms quite precisely. Further, assuming that the mb12/adb12 supplement is functioning reasonably well as such you have demonstrated a rapid startup response to it affirming the b12 deficiency situation.

It would appear that you do have at least 2 of the 4 b12 deficiency subsets; body mb12 and body adb12. Whether or not you additionally have one or two CNS/CSF b12 deficiencies depends upon whether your central symptoms clear with normal sublingual doses or if some or all of them require the much larger doses some people require who have those separate CNS/CSF deficiencies.

The sudden intensification of symptoms upon consumption of the active b12s is a signpost to healing. Those things that respond right away are usually those that heal most rapidly and clear up relatively quickly. While this might seem counter intuitive it is the way this appears to work quite reliably.

I have been accused of overhyping the startup response and I have been accused of understating the startup responses. As far as I know everybody who sticks with it gets through the startup responses in some days to some months depending upon dosage, possibly cofactors and some unknown elements. As the startup responses fade the person usually begins to feel better with symptoms starting to fade away.

My allergies are all but gone, my asthma is gone, the daily nausea is gone, my skin is the best it has been in my life, I can walk down the detergent aisle without discomfort, my health is the best in my life. All of these lifelong from childhood problems are cleared up as well as all the other 200 symptoms except the ones from the car crash and from subacute combined degeneration that was allowed to progress unchecked for 17 years or more.

So good luck. You can listen to those of us who have actually walked this way or not. Number one rule to remember when walking through hell. KEEP WALKING. Don't stop to setup housekeeping there because you don't dare keep going because "what if it keeps getting worse?"
 

Freddd

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Well I did think about giving it another chance when my order comes in. I guess I could always borrow some of my mothers B12 and take it with my Advanced B12? She takes Jarrow Methyl B-12 1000 mcg. Would it be wrong to combine that one with my B12? Then add in the Solgar Metafolin and B-Right? I really don't want to place another order for more supplements at this time. I understand that you have a certain way of doing things, but my question is that with what I have now, would it be more useful if I added Jarrow Methyl into the mix? I'm not looking for an exact science here, but to do something rather than nothing, if it's going to be of benefit to me.

What I find strange, is that I didn't take the B12 the other day, yet I still woke up today with 2 hours less sleep. Could the B12 still be in me? This 1-3 hours less sleep started after taking the B12. I suppose that it could have just been coincidence?
Hi Tal,

Let's look at a little math, very small amounts are involved. One picogram (pg) is a millionth of a microgram (mcg) which is a millionth of a gram. An adult person has about 5000ml (5 liters) of blood. 1 mcg to blood can raise the serum level 200pg/ml. A steak dinner might raise the serum level by 400pg/ml for some hours. So 1mg to blood can raise the serum level to 200,000pg/ml instantaneously. This drops by 50% every 30 minutes or so as the kidneys filter much of it out. After 12 hours the rate at which it drops off is down to 50% each 4 hours or so. From 12-48 hours the average serum halflife is 12.9 hours. Research indicates that about 99% is excreted in the first 24 hours. The first few hours when there is such a high level the diffusion gradiant is steep and the b12 can enter all sorts of areas that it normally has difficulty reaching. The adb12 that enters the mitochondria tends to stay there for a long time and so doesn't need constant replacement. The mb12, considered the main circulating form is vulnerable to excretion because it has to be everywhere cells divide. People taking mb12 regularly find that some symptoms start coming back in 3 days of no mb12 and others last a week. Some symptoms don't come back for weeks to months after only a few doses. So when b12 was tested against MCV (blood cell size) once a month was often enough and the other 300 symptoms and signs were not generally recognized as b12 deficiency symptoms and besides, the blood cell size PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that a single b12 dose lasts for a month and can keep the minimum serum level above 300pg/ml which is enough to prevent macrocytic anemia. If it lasts for a month for MCV it "ought" to be sufficient for everything else. And that is the fatal flaw in logic that has gotten us to where we are. That increase of 100-200 pg/ml at the end of the month is the result of a single microgram or less still in circulation.

So, since the mitochondria experience no loss of efficiency with a few days without b12, it can take 2 weeks or longer before the fatigue might start coming back, and there remains a few micrograms in circulation it takes a while before sleep deteriorates again.

Taking the 1mg Jarrow will give you a basis of comparison. When I was taking 1mg/day I found that a single 3mg adb12 once a week kept things level enough that there was no perceivable difference. After I reached body equilibrium and tried 51mgs of adb12, I found that I did have the CNS/CSF adb12 deficiency. So now, while I take 30mg/day by injection of mb12 I take 18mg of adb12 once a week sublingually and time it so it rides the steep diffusion gradiant into the CNS/CFS with my mb12 injection. More often makes no noticable difference. More dose makes no noticable difference for me. I did experiment with adb12 injections daily to see the effect and found that once mixed in injectable liquid, even refrigerated and protected from light the adb12 broke down (to hycbl giving me acne type lesions) in less than 10 days.

Some people find the dose I take once a week to be needed daily to keep brain fog at bay.

So an experiment you might do is to take the Jarrow daily and the combined formula once a week and learn to see the separate effects. If it is absorbing well you might see an increase in the mb12 effects too or you migh only see the differential adb12 effects. Doing something that will give you more information will be helpful because the 1mg Jarrow gives a definite basis of comparison and is a known quality and quantity. Good luck.
 

winston

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Hi Sunday & Joseph, This B12 treatment is challenging but doing nothing is much worse. I also desperately need this protocol to work. Last week I found out my thyroid is extremely low so the Dr. raised my Synthroid & Cytomel. I have been on the same dose for years, he doesn't know why it went down he said it is not the B12s I am taking that would cause it. Hoping upping this dose will kick in soon.

Joseph, from the very beginning of this B12 protocol the mental issues have always been the worse symptom for me, severe anxiety and its partner depression. Now I am experiencing mood swings from day to day. Fredd mentioned that it is neurology healing and can take awhile, in the meantime I will get addicted to xanax. It feels like the wiring in my brain is shorting out. Sometime it's as if a switch is turned on and I have desire energy to do something. Then the switch goes off and I don't have any desire to do anything plus I always have fatigue. Sometimes I experience almost panic, like I have to talk to someone or do something. If you need to talk to someone, check your PM.

The months of April & May I did not need any xanax, then came June gloom and back on little pieces of xanax when I can't stand myself, this month same thing. I am really checking all my basic supplements, I was off Vit C & Vit A for about 1 month so added them back, Changed from Omega 3 flaxseed to fish oil. Changed my brand of potassium, was taking potassium glucamate which I think was making me sicker.

Wish this was easier, we are all in this together.

Lena
 

Freddd

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Alright today I got my Jarrow Methyl B12 1mg, and Solgar Metafolin. I took half of the Metafolin (400mcg) and the whole Jarrow Methylcobalamin. The Jarrow one lasts ALOT LONGER before it fully dissolves compared to the Source Naturals brand. I had it under my tongue, then moved it under my upper lip. Either way, it lasted like 2 hours! The other brand lasted around 20 mins. Now as to the difference I feel? Well on the Source Naturals without the Metafolin I felt a calm feeling. Right now I feel FAST mentally speaking, Im typing faster too. I wouldnt call it anxiety, but just faster reflexes or something? I think I should point out that I already had pretty fast reflexes (at least before CFS) compared to most people, so this seems like quite an interesting reaction.

So clearly there is a reaction here. Even my skeptical self can clearly see it. I do feel energy too, even though my body still has a tired feeling to it. I really dont know how to describe this well enough, but Im doing my best. It seems as if my mind is getting the most benefit perhaps? Almost a hyper feeling, but without it being what I would call anxiety.

Now perhaps I shouldve taken the Metafolin with and Methyl B12 on different days to find out what is doing what, but this still is a very interesting reaction. I feel that fast mental pace that I used to feel before CFS.

Hopefully I will be able to sleep tonight. Ill update things a bit more in the future.
Hi Tal,

The Jarrow one lasts ALOT LONGER before it fully dissolves compared to the Source Naturals brand.

That all by itself can make a very large difference. One of the things the testing did indicate very strongly that effectiveness was influenced by time in contact with the tissues. I wasn't able to get a clear handle on it until I did the urine colorimetry comparison with injections.

I would guess you got a good 25% or more absorbtion, most excellent.


Right now I feel FAST mentally speaking, Im typing faster too. I wouldnt call it anxiety, but just faster reflexes or something? I think I should point out that I already had pretty fast reflexes (at least before CFS) compared to most people, so this seems like quite an interesting reaction.

Methylb12 can immediately affect certain aspects of neurology. One of the things it does functionally is literally speed up neural impulses if they are slower becasue of b12 deficiency. I got that too. To me that became one of the key factors present in good qualitatively methylcobalamin. I'm not talking about purity or anything like that. I am speaking diferences at the source crystal level for unknown reasons. Some mb12 is much superior neurologicallly than other batches. I became more or less euphoric on it to have my brain back after all those years of stullifying fatigue.

Honestly I can't say just how much difference the Metafolin makes. One of the most noticable effects was that it almost doubled the amount I could inject before it showed up at all noticably in my urine and it made an incremental change in effectivness. The Metafolin also restored normal dreaming which had been absent for 25 years or so. For some people Metafolin is the key to turning on the major amount of effect, not just an incremental.


Even my skeptical self can clearly see it. I do feel energy too, even though my body still has a tired feeling to it. I really dont know how to describe this well enough, but Im doing my best. It seems as if my mind is getting the most benefit perhaps? Almost a hyper feeling, but without it being what I would call anxiety.

Researches studying CFS have stated that there are at least 2 components to the fatigue; a central nervous system "tiredness" and the mitochondrial malfunction. The methylb12 only takes care of the mitochondrial malfunction to a small degree. The adb12 is more important for that. Then the mb12 is more important for the CNS fatigue aspect but the adb12 is included. As the newness wears off and the saturation stops increasing, the more active aspect fades to feeling normal but the effect is not lost, it feels normal.

I'm glad you took the opportunity to try the Jarrow mb12. It can be a real eyeopener. I do consider it to be extremely reliable and predictable.

For your body it may require exercise to restore full normal energy and functioning as well as adb12 and a few other things. Good luck and glad to here of such results.
 

Freddd

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The Jarrow brand does seem to have made it a bit harder to sleep, and stay asleep. I'm not surprised about that considering my reaction the other day.

Yesterday I had also noticed something hard to explain. Sort of like heat that runs through different parts of my body at times. Sort of like a heat sensation for like 30 secs or so. I ran the air conditioner a bit more than I would do normally. It wasn't really a feeling of being too hot, but just a sensation of heat that comes and goes to differen't body parts a times. Again, not something easy to explain.

Edit: I notice the bottle of Jarrow 1mg Methyl says to use every 2-3 days? Is it ok to use daily?
Hi Tal,

I notice the bottle of Jarrow 1mg Methyl says to use every 2-3 days? Is it ok to use daily?

Only if you actually want effective healing. Otherwise it will be 99 steps backwards for each 100 steps forward. Symptoms start returning noticably by day 3 for many.

The "heat" feeling may be any of several things such as neurological effect, improved blood flow and possibly other things. However, as feeling cold in general is a b12 deficiency symptom and cold hands and feet are associated with reduced blood flow in neurologically impaired areas I'm not surprised that you have such. So do I. And my general warmth difference is amazing. I used to need heavy blankets even in summer to be warm during the night. Now a sheet can be too much. Despite that my heat tolerance outside has increased has long as I drink plenty of water. With 100 degrees forecast for today that is just as well.
 

BEG

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Fredd,

I'm interested in those white spots you posted about a month ago. I have them all over my back, shoulders and arms. I tan easily, and a few days at the pool, they're right there looking very peculiar. To my knowledge, they didn't develop from crusted freckles, however.

I had a (tested) B12 defiency several years back. The white spots appeared later (don't remember how much). This problem seems to emerge from a complicated system gone wrong, according to Rich. Upon treatment, has the white spot problem disappeared for you?
 

Freddd

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Fredd,

I'm interested in those white spots you posted about a month ago. I have them all over my back, shoulders and arms. I tan easily, and a few days at the pool, they're right there looking very peculiar. To my knowledge, they didn't develop from crusted freckles, however.

I had a (tested) B12 defiency several years back. The white spots appeared later (don't remember how much). This problem seems to emerge from a complicated system gone wrong, according to Rich. Upon treatment, has the white spot problem disappeared for you?
Hi Brown-eyed Girl,

WARNING - Discussion of suntan is blatantly non-PC.

I've done some reading that seems to indicate such things can happen as a b12 deficiency symptom. However, mine happened quite differently. They happened when restoring b12 as described by me in the earlier post. First of all I had a lot of apparantly aquired freckles from skin to skin cintact with my wife right after we were married and I was deficient already at that age. Shortly after having adequate MB12 35 years later these aquired fereckles and only these, got sort of spongy that became sort of crusty and fell off. The light spots left behind can only be seen on a tanned area. I watched it happen on my tanned arms as they peeled off. The oldest ones are about 5 years old now and are only two shades lighter. Each year the older they are the more they tan. I still have some fresh ones, still even have a few crusting and peeling, and they are shockingly white when I get a suntan in the summer. I've got some on my legs that appear to have no tan at all and they are about 5 or 6 shades lighter. When tanned all over I have these lighter speckles all over, newer ones lighter, older ones darker. None of them have become fully even with the surroiunding skin but some are getting close.

How did yours develop? All at once or some each year?

I don't know of any treatment for them. Besides, even if there were I would not be willing to risk side effects to treat them. So if my name were Dick I would just have to be known as spotted Dick.
 

BEG

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Hi Brown-eyed Girl, WARNING - Discussion of suntan is blatantly non-PC.
I've done some reading that seems to indicate such things can happen as a b12 deficiency symptom. When tanned all over I have these lighter speckles all over, newer ones lighter, older ones darker. None of them have become fully even with the surroiunding skin but some are getting close.
How did yours develop? All at once or some each year?.
Hi Fredd,

My white spots came about gradually, and they could have shown up after I started the B12 injections. Who knows? Frankly, I couldn't even give someone my address the other day. Here is a picture of me when I am tan. Sorry to be so blatant.:ashamed:;)

http://www.maxwaugh.com/tanzania07/leopard2.php :D:eek:
 

Freddd

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A man's face is his autobiography. A woman's face is her work of fiction. - Oscar Wilde

*hides*

Hey Freddd, I noticed energy the other day and today as well. I haven't even taken the B12 yet today. The problem though, is I'm waking up like 5 hours after I go to sleep, and can't fall back to sleep. So it's surprising that I have energy considering I'm getting less sleep than before. I know you said sleep will fix in time, but this still sucks. On the other brand of B12, sleep wasn't that bad and had fixed itself. Now it seems I have to go through it again.

Overall a bit more clear headed, feeling mentally faster, more energy in my body now too, and more warmth. My lightheadedness I get sometimes is still there, and I would say it's somewhat worse now, as I'm getting less sleep. More sleep would help imo.
Hi Tal,

A study on sleep and mb12 I read a few years back said that less but more resttful sleep was often a result of mb12. That is certainly a common experience. I would advise not to get upset about the hours but rather judge it based on how you feel. It affects melatonin production and can take some time to get regularized. MY experience of the first 3 months excluding the time switched to a zero star brand was that it was like 20 steps forward on energy each day and 19 steps fallback by the nesxt morning. Each day though I had an increase in base energy and that is what my body adapted to with a little lag.
 

Freddd

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I deleted that post because I thought someone might get offended by the Oscar Wilde quote... You dug it up! :D

And perhaps it's too early for me to judge every little thing. I need to to wait a few weeks or something.
I'm a fan of Oscar Wilde. I must have caught up to it before you deleted it.
 

xchocoholic

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Hi Fred,

Just wanted to let you know that I took 1/2 sublingual Enzymatic Methyl B12 and a Solgar Metafolin 400 mg today. I've taken folate (including Metagenics Methyltetrahydrofolate found in Vessel Care) off and on for a few years now so I was wondering if I needed to go slower on this one ...

I only let the methyl B12 sit under my tongue for about 15 minutes because I was trying not to overdo it ...

I did feel like my body was shaking inside for about an hour about 4-5 hours after I took these but that was it. Thankfully, that's over now. I've had a little more energy this past week so that wouldn't be noticeable.

Is this the reaction you're looking for ? thanks ... X

Ps. I linked restless sleep to taking Metagenics Vessel Care before but contributed it to the energy rush it had given me. Today I didn't get that rush from what I took ... Also, I've been on the other supplements (except instead of using a multi, I take Emergenc) you listed for a couple of years now.

Metagenics Vessell Care ---

Each Tablet Supplies:

Riboflavin5.00 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCl)25.00 mg
Folate (as folic acid and L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate†)800.00 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin)500.00 mcg
Zinc (as zinc glycinate††)5.00 mg
Trimethylglycine 500.00 mg
Choline (as choline bitartrate)100.00 mg
Intrinsic Factor20.00 mg


Other Ingredients: Microcrystalline cellulose, Cellulose, Calcium silicate, Stearic acid, Croscarmellose sodium, Magnesium stearate, Coating (deionized water, hypromellose, maltodextrin, and polyethylene glycol)

† As Metafolin U.S. Patent Nos. 5,997,915, 6,254,904.
†† Mineral amino acid chelate: U.S. Patent No. 5,516,925 Albion
 

xchocoholic

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Hi Fred,

I hope you're still following this thread ...

Night 1 - I felt jazzed up and wide awake past my normal bedtime of 11pm but fell asleep at midnight. I slept like a log till 4 am. I was awake until 7 am and was sleeping like a log when my phone rang at 10 am. I fell back to sleep until 10:30am ...

Day 2 - I saw today that I'd actually only taken 1/3 of the Enzymatic B12. Today I took 1/3 and held it for about 10 minutes under my tongue and then tried to hold it on top of my tongue. It melted immediately so I took another 1/3 and held it for 30 minutes under my tongue. After that I went ahead and took a whole 400 mg Metafolin.

I should be experiencing PEM today after being on the go all day yesterday but I didn't. : ) ... Instead I did some gardening for about 3 hours total including breaks at my "normal" pace. I didn't get the shakes this time either. I could count on one hand how many times I've had a "normal" energy level so "normal" to me, means I work for about 30 minutes and take a break. And I have to lay down flat for an hour every few hours for my OI (orthostatic intolerance).

If someone is reading this, I could use some help. I'm a little confused on how to do this. I read somewhere that we should titrate each of these and then some place else that we should take B12 and Metafolin together. I seem to be fine with taking 400 mg Metafolin and 2/3 tablet of B12.

I'm not sure how long we're supposed to stay at one dose before moving on. I normally wait 3 days or more before increasing to the next step in a protocal ... Is that necessary with this since it's just B12 and folate ?

thanks ... X
 

Freddd

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Hi Fred,

I hope you're still following this thread ...

Night 1 - I felt jazzed up and wide awake past my normal bedtime of 11pm but fell asleep at midnight. I slept like a log till 4 am. I was awake until 7 am and was sleeping like a log when my phone rang at 10 am. I fell back to sleep until 10:30am ...

Day 2 - I saw today that I'd actually only taken 1/3 of the Enzymatic B12. Today I took 1/3 and held it for about 10 minutes under my tongue and then tried to hold it on top of my tongue. It melted immediately so I took another 1/3 and held it for 30 minutes under my tongue. After that I went ahead and took a whole 400 mg Metafolin.

I should be experiencing PEM today after being on the go all day yesterday but I didn't. : ) ... Instead I did some gardening for about 3 hours total including breaks at my "normal" pace. I didn't get the shakes this time either. I could count on one hand how many times I've had a "normal" energy level so "normal" to me, means I work for about 30 minutes and take a break. And I have to lay down flat for an hour every few hours for my OI (orthostatic intolerance).

If someone is reading this, I could use some help. I'm a little confused on how to do this. I read somewhere that we should titrate each of these and then some place else that we should take B12 and Metafolin together. I seem to be fine with taking 400 mg Metafolin and 2/3 tablet of B12.

I'm not sure how long we're supposed to stay at one dose before moving on. I normally wait 3 days or more before increasing to the next step in a protocal ... Is that necessary with this since it's just B12 and folate ?

thanks ... X
Hi Xchocoholic,

There are multiple schools of thought on titrating. An entire 1mg ET mb12 will supply approximately 15% held for 45 minutes and approximately 25% when held for 2 hours. This is equivalent to about 150-250mcg per 1mg. That is 1/7 to 1/4 of what a doctor would inject delivered to serum. Your estimated absorbtion from 333 mcg sublingual dose held for 10 minutes is about 10mcg. That is so small as to bardly be noticable. I have instructed most people to start with 1mg held for 45-120 minutes which amounts to 15x to 25x the dose that you are absorbing. For many people the faster they get to 20mg/day the faster they reach the end of the startup. Methylb12 has a dose effectiveness curve, it's not linear but generally a higher dose produces more effectivensss but at a rate that falls off with each doubling compared to an absorbed dose of 150mcg (1mg for 45 minutes). However, a constant rate of 5mg/day after bringing startup effects to a close and more ceases to make a difference, is generally adequate for most for the long haul. This amounts to about 750-1250 mcg which is an absorbed dose suitable to bring about healing for most things for most people. Unfortunately research has shown that people with FMS/CFS/Alzheimer's all have a depressed CSF cobalamin level even with a normal serum level which can lead to all sorts of CNS problems including loss of feeling of feet and legs, lack of motor control and many other CNS problems. This often takes an even higher dose to heal. Many find that a 7.5mg sc injection produces a noticable CNS startup effect. This can be duplicated with a 50mg single dose of 5 star sublinguals in a single dose after body startup has finished. In addition one should have a 3mg adb12 at least once a week or more if beneficial.

I started with 400mcg Metafolin because it was expensive and hard to come by. There had been one batch released by Source naturals which I bought and they got their distribution rights yanked for contractual reasons and I wasn't sure how long the ten bottles I bought would have to last. I found 800mcg fine but after anotyher event I titrated up to 4800mcg by effect. I found that the startup only last a day or two at each stage with the Metafolin and generally was mild because I was already the separate mb12 startup. The very first dose nearly doubled the amount of mb12 that I could inject before it was visible in my urine.
 

xchocoholic

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Hi Xchocoholic,

There are multiple schools of thought on titrating. An entire 1mg ET mb12 will supply approximately 15% held for 45 minutes and approximately 25% when held for 2 hours. This is equivalent to about 150-250mcg per 1mg. That is 1/7 to 1/4 of what a doctor would inject delivered to serum. Your estimated absorbtion from 333 mcg sublingual dose held for 10 minutes is about 10mcg. That is so small as to bardly be noticable.

I have instructed most people to start with 1mg held for 45-120 minutes which amounts to 15x to 25x the dose that you are absorbing. For many people the faster they get to 20mg/day the faster they reach the end of the startup .

Methylb12 has a dose effectiveness curve, it's not linear but generally a higher dose produces more effectivensss but at a rate that falls off with each doubling compared to an absorbed dose of 150mcg (1mg for 45 minutes). However, a constant rate of 5mg/day after bringing startup effects to a close and more ceases to make a difference, is generally adequate for most for the long haul. This amounts to about 750-1250 mcg which is an absorbed dose suitable to bring about healing for most things for most people.

Unfortunately research has shown that people with FMS/CFS/Alzheimer's all have a depressed CSF cobalamin level even with a normal serum level which can lead to all sorts of CNS problems including loss of feeling of feet and legs, lack of motor control and many other CNS problems. This often takes an even higher dose to heal.

Many find that a 7.5mg sc injection produces a noticable CNS startup effect. This can be duplicated with a 50mg single dose of 5 star sublinguals in a single dose after body startup has finished. In addition one should have a 3mg adb12 at least once a week or more if beneficial.


I started with 400mcg Metafolin because it was expensive and hard to come by. There had been one batch released by Source naturals which I bought and they got their distribution rights yanked for contractual reasons and I wasn't sure how long the ten bottles I bought would have to last.

I found 800mcg fine but after anotyher event I titrated up to 4800mcg by effect.

I found that the startup only last a day or two at each stage with the Metafolin and generally was mild because I was already the separate mb12 startup. The very first dose nearly doubled the amount of mb12 that I could inject before it was visible in my urine.
Hi Fred,

Thanks ... I'm not sure what startup is ... I'm sorry if you've discussed this a thousand times before. I tend to lose my ability to concentrate after 1 page much less 161 ... lol ... Is that the jittery feeling I saw mentioned ? or the lack of sleep ?

I slept great last night and only awoke at 7 am because one of my neighbors was being noisy. I took a whole Enzymatic Methyl B12 1,000 mg today and held it for 45 minutes. And I took 400 mcg of Metafolin. My last lab on folate showed that I was well above so I'm not sure I want to do that again. That was from taking 1/2 Metagenics Vessel Care as often as I could without getting UTI symptoms. So probably twice a week.

I'm not getting jittery at all from this so I thought I'd go to 1 1/2 MB12 and 800 folate tomorrow. My lack of response could be from PEM too. I'm not having a full blown PEM reaction though so that's good. When I do get my normal full blown PEM, I feel like a limp zombie for 3 - 4 days after exerting myself for one or more days. I'll take naps off and on throughout the day and sleep like a log too ... NOTHING has ever undone this feeling for me. I could drink a pot of coffee and go straight to sleep. I'm assuming my ATP is in the red .. BTW, Do you or did you get PEM ?

I'm being cautious because I started pregnenolone and DHEA on July 1st. Apparently my adrenals are struggling because I was just diagnosed with adrenal fatigue. My labs show that I'm low on testoesterone, DHEA and cortisol so I'm supposed to start testosterone asap too. My doc didn't have a problem with me trying this protocal at the same time since she'd already prescribed Metagenics Vessel Care and knew I would be taking what you recommended instead.

I had to laugh when I read that we could take 50 mg of MB12 at one time. I can't imagine how one would hold 50 of these tablets under their tongue for that long ... lol ... did I read that right ? I'm guessing there's a higher dose sublingual out there ... ; )

What did you mean when you said that you were monitoring your urine for this ? I've only seen yellow urine from B2 and the regular AZO, not the other Bs or the AZO with probiotics that I've taken.

And how long should I wait before adding in the ADB12 ? Thanks again ... X
 

Freddd

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Hi Fred,

Thanks ... I'm not sure what startup is ... I'm sorry if you've discussed this a thousand times before. I tend to lose my ability to concentrate after 1 page much less 161 ... lol ... Is that the jittery feeling I saw mentioned ? or the lack of sleep ?

I slept great last night and only awoke at 7 am because one of my neighbors was being noisy. I took a whole Enzymatic Methyl B12 1,000 mg today and held it for 45 minutes. And I took 400 mcg of Metafolin. My last lab on folate showed that I was well above so I'm not sure I want to do that again. That was from taking 1/2 Metagenics Vessel Care as often as I could without getting UTI symptoms. So probably twice a week.

I'm not getting jittery at all from this so I thought I'd go to 1 1/2 MB12 and 800 folate tomorrow. My lack of response could be from PEM too. I'm not having a full blown PEM reaction though so that's good. When I do get my normal full blown PEM, I feel like a limp zombie for 3 - 4 days after exerting myself for one or more days. I'll take naps off and on throughout the day and sleep like a log too ... NOTHING has ever undone this feeling for me. I could drink a pot of coffee and go straight to sleep. I'm assuming my ATP is in the red .. BTW, Do you or did you get PEM ?

I'm being cautious because I started pregnenolone and DHEA on July 1st. Apparently my adrenals are struggling because I was just diagnosed with adrenal fatigue. My labs show that I'm low on testoesterone, DHEA and cortisol so I'm supposed to start testosterone asap too. My doc didn't have a problem with me trying this protocal at the same time since she'd already prescribed Metagenics Vessel Care and knew I would be taking what you recommended instead.

I had to laugh when I read that we could take 50 mg of MB12 at one time. I can't imagine how one would hold 50 of these tablets under their tongue for that long ... lol ... did I read that right ? I'm guessing there's a higher dose sublingual out there ... ; )

What did you mean when you said that you were monitoring your urine for this ? I've only seen yellow urine from B2 and the regular AZO, not the other Bs or the AZO with probiotics that I've taken.

And how long should I wait before adding in the ADB12 ? Thanks again ... X
Hi Xchocoholic,

What did you mean when you said that you were monitoring your urine for this ? I've only seen yellow urine from B2 and the regular AZO, not the other Bs or the AZO with probiotics that I've taken.

A very slight darkening or pinking of urine can occur at around 2-3+mg injected (absorbed). The 50mg dose virtually always shows.


And how long should I wait before adding in the ADB12 ?

You can do that immediately. Any startup from that is usually relatively minor and over in a day or two.


My last lab on folate showed that I was well above so I'm not sure I want to do that again.

Concerning labs and folate, people who are deficient of b12 can have elevated folate becasue it isn't being used because of lack of cofactors. Also, Lab results of folate, like those of b12, don't appear to predict who will have a response to Metafolin.


I had to laugh when I read that we could take 50 mg of MB12 at one time. I can't imagine how one would hold 50 of these tablets under their tongue for that long ... lol ... did I read that right ? I'm guessing there's a higher dose sublingual out there ... ; )


It's much easier with the 5mg tablets. Even at that I start with 3 in around my lips and as they soften and go to paste I add more. It takes about 3 hours for the whole dose holding each and all of them as long as possible.

I don't know what PEM is. I used to be totally exhausted all the time and going shopping would require 3-5 days of recovery time. Of course that is no longer a factor. I can do physical labor 3-4 hours daily and live a normal life with that. The heat is what saps me most these days, and always waas before the exhaustion set in suddenly.
 

xchocoholic

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Hi Xchocoholic,

What did you mean when you said that you were monitoring your urine for this ? I've only seen yellow urine from B2 and the regular AZO, not the other Bs or the AZO with probiotics that I've taken.

A very slight darkening or pinking of urine can occur at around 2-3+mg injected (absorbed). The 50mg dose virtually always shows.


And how long should I wait before adding in the ADB12 ?

You can do that immediately. Any startup from that is usually relatively minor and over in a day or two.


My last lab on folate showed that I was well above so I'm not sure I want to do that again.

Concerning labs and folate, people who are deficient of b12 can have elevated folate becasue it isn't being used because of lack of cofactors. Also, Lab results of folate, like those of b12, don't appear to predict who will have a response to Metafolin.


I had to laugh when I read that we could take 50 mg of MB12 at one time. I can't imagine how one would hold 50 of these tablets under their tongue for that long ... lol ... did I read that right ? I'm guessing there's a higher dose sublingual out there ... ; )


It's much easier with the 5mg tablets. Even at that I start with 3 in around my lips and as they soften and go to paste I add more. It takes about 3 hours for the whole dose holding each and all of them as long as possible.

I don't know what PEM is. I used to be totally exhausted all the time and going shopping would require 3-5 days of recovery time. Of course that is no longer a factor. I can do physical labor 3-4 hours daily and live a normal life with that. The heat is what saps me most these days, and always waas before the exhaustion set in suddenly.
Thanks Fred,

I should be able to pick up the Country Life AdB12 tomorrow ...

I was just taking Metagenics Vessell Care which contains - Folate (as folic acid and L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate†)800.00 mcg when my numbers went up. I understand what you mean about testing and our bodies lacking co- enzymes though ...

Good to hear it comes in a 5mg tablet. So I gather you're not putting 10 - 5 mg tablets in your mouth and trying to hold onto all of them at one time. 3 hours is a really long time to hold tablets in your mouth. Isn't there a better way ? Why not use 10 at once ? Or break it up into several times a day ?

PEM is post exertional malaise ... You described it when you said that " I used to be totally exhausted all the time and going shopping would require 3-5 days of recovery time." Some CFS researcher (Cheney, I think) said it was caused by toxins building up in our blood while we're active because we run out of ATP and have to resort to using ADP. Another one (Myhill ?) said it was due to us using up all of our ATP and it takes 1 - 4 days for our bodies to replenish it ... I feel like I do both.

Congrats on feeling better. I haven't been tired all the time in a few years now. Mostly, I do what I want as long as it's at a slow pace and then pay for it for the next 3 days ... I'm still only running errands, doing a little gardening, etc though. I'm no where near "normal".

As far as the heat goes, I finally figured out yesterday that if I work in the sun, I need to replenish my fluids with 32 - 64 oz of liquid, not 16 - 32 oz. I used a combo of Emergen C and MD Function Detox yesterday and could feel the difference for once ... I actually felt re-hydrated ...

thanks again ... I'll keep you up on all of this ... X