Hi, Dreambirdie.
O.K. I just thought I should let you know. I'm glad you've found something that helps.
Rich
B-12 - The Hidden Story
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Hi, Dreambirdie.
O.K. I just thought I should let you know. I'm glad you've found something that helps.
Rich
Dreambirdie
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I'm always glad to get your input. I'd love to know why N-A-C works so well for me. If anyone has any theories about that, it would
be interesting to hear.
Sunday
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I'd be interested to know why the NAC works so well for you, too.
Hi, Dreambirdie.
As you probably know, NAC is N-acetylcysteine. It's basically the amino acid cysteine with an acetyl group attached to it. It's a chemically stable form of cysteine. Cysteine by itself becomes easily oxidized, and that's why NAC is used to supplement cysteine.
Cysteine is one of the few amino acids that contains sulfur. In particular, the sulfur is in the form of a sulfhydryl or S-H group.
Several of the toxic metals, including mercury, readily bind to sulfhydryl groups.
I suggest that the benefit you are getting from NAC is that it is binding to the mercury that has been mobilized. This prevents the mercury from binding to sulfhydryl groups in your enzymes and other proteins, and interfering with their normal biochemistry, which is what causes mercury toxicity.
Apparently in your case the mercury is being bound by NAC and is being excreted. The kidneys will filter it out of the blood and excrete it in the urine. I don't know why you are apparently not also experiencing transport of the mercury into your brain with this high dosage of NAC, which is the concern that caused Dr. Quig to set the dosage limit at 300 mg per day of NAC. It is known that cysteine bound to mercury can be transported by the LNAA (large neutral amino acid) transport system across the blood-brain barrier. This has been studied in rats. This can be blocked by leucine, another amino acid found in protein. So if you are on a high protein diet, or are supplementing branched-chain amino acids, this may be preventing the transport of mercury into the brain by the NAC.
Rich
Dreambirdie
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Hi Rich--
Yes, I actually am on a high protein diet.
Could the N-A-C crossing the blood barrier be working in the reverse way of what you say... What I mean is that could the N-A-C bind with heavy metals that are IN my brain already (or at least in my nerve cells), and then move them OUT of my body ?
Yes, I actually am on a high protein diet.
Could the N-A-C crossing the blood barrier be working in the reverse way of what you say... What I mean is that could the N-A-C bind with heavy metals that are IN my brain already (or at least in my nerve cells), and then move them OUT of my body ?
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Dreambirdie. Me too!
I also feel better with NAC for some time. better energy, clearer thinking, etc... However, I get methyl b12 deficiency symptoms over time from using NAC. Dry hair, burning feet and stuff. YOu don't get other deficiency symptoms from NAC? I have been taking some OSR lately, which is another sulfur supplement and it makes me feel better. time will tell though, I can't seem to keep the feel good momentum going...
I also feel better with NAC for some time. better energy, clearer thinking, etc... However, I get methyl b12 deficiency symptoms over time from using NAC. Dry hair, burning feet and stuff. YOu don't get other deficiency symptoms from NAC? I have been taking some OSR lately, which is another sulfur supplement and it makes me feel better. time will tell though, I can't seem to keep the feel good momentum going...
Dreambirdie
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What exactly is OSR?
No dry hair or burning feet for me. Actually just the opposite. Wish my freezing feet would burn a little.
No dry hair or burning feet for me. Actually just the opposite. Wish my freezing feet would burn a little.
Hi, Dreambirdie.
Sorry, I don't know. Some time back I hypothesized that methylcobalamin may be able to do that, but I have no evidence for that, either.
OSR #1 is a substance that was developed by Prof. Boyd Haley of the Chemistry Dept. at the University of Kentucky. It stands for "oxidative stress relief." He added the "#1" to it when he learned that the name "OSR" was already trademarked by someone else.
This molecule incorporates two glutathione molecules within its structure. It is initially water soluble, so it can be taken orally and absorbed by the gut. Once in the body, it supposedly releases the glutathione molecules, thus helping to build up glutathione in the body and counter oxidative stress. The residual part of the molecule supposedly then becomes fat-soluble. The idea is that it is then supposed to be able to cross the blood brain barrier and enter the brain. The residual molecule is designed to have two sulfhydryl groups oriented at 180 degrees from each other, and properly spaced so that they can truly chelate a mercuric (Hg2+) ion. (Chelation means that there are two separate chemical bonds to the same ion. According to Prof. Haley, the other substances that are called chelators for mercury are actually not true chelators, because, though they have two sulfhydryl groups, these groups are not properly oriented or spaced to be able to bind to the same mercuric ion simultaneously. Therefore, their binding to the mercuric ion is not as strong as it would be for a true chelator. The problem with this is that the bond is then more readily broken, and the mercuric ion can come loose from the purported chelator and be redistributed in the body instead of being removed from the body.) The idea is then that it is supposed to be able to hang on to the mercury ion tightly, diffuse back out of the brain, and carry the mercury into the urine.
Prof. Haley's company is selling this substance as an antioxidant, and is not claiming that it is a mercury chelator, because this would require expensive FDA-approved testing. He has done testing on animals to show that this substance is not toxic. Initially it was being sold only through doctors, but I understand it is now available from some internet sources.
Dr. Klinghardt said in his talk at the last Lyme-Induced Autism conference that he has found this substance to be useful as part of his detox protocol.
There is a Yahoo group called OxidativeStressRelief, and a lot of autism parents are giving good reports there of the benefits of using this product.
I am not personally vouching for this product, only reporting what I have heard and read.
Best regards,
Rich
Dreambirdie
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Thanks Rich. Your brain is awesomely impressive. :Retro wink::Retro smile::Retro smile:
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well DReambirdie, Rich gave about the same answer I would have given. 
I haven't measured the molecfules to see if they are really 180 degrees apart, but I would say that feels about right
OSR is expensive last time I bought some.
well good to hear you aren't having nerve pain DB. I am getting the cold feet again with the OSR, not too much nerve pain yet(only been a 3 days).
I haven't measured the molecfules to see if they are really 180 degrees apart, but I would say that feels about right OSR is expensive last time I bought some.
well good to hear you aren't having nerve pain DB. I am getting the cold feet again with the OSR, not too much nerve pain yet(only been a 3 days).
Freddd
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Hi Rich,
Some time back I hypothesized that methylcobalamin may be able to do that, but I have no evidence for that, either.
I don't have any hard evidence either. The only thing I can say is that hundreds of people who tried the active b12s and cofactors, and expected and went through startup effects, who did not have any theories about what must be happening did succeed in going throught the startup unpleasantness, mostly in the first few month. As Sunday reported here, after a couple of months, of "turning a corner" when things started getting better. I personally have had a malfunctioning system all my life and as much or more mercury exposure as anybody here most likely, and lead etc exposure from doing a lot of soldering as a young teen, and I too" turned the corner" after several months. Also there is some evidence that methylcobalamin itself is neurologically protective against toxins as well as promoting of healing at the same time. So maybe, mobilization and removal, neurological protection and neurological healing all add up to a different effect. As I said before, I was suprised to see the length of time people had continuing problems while using hydroxyb12 when I arrived here. Nothing in my previous 6 years of experience had prepared me for that. Elsewhere, the few people that had trouble all had arrived from elsewhere and all had the same hypothesis, "detox", and were acting upon it.
Correlation is not causality, so who knows. Whether people had the most troubles because they had the "detox" hypothesis or they had the "detox" hypothesis because they had the most troubles or were sicker or differently sick or whatever was going on the two things appear to go together. That would take some controlled studies to find out.
Article on OSR#1 published in Chicago Tribune
Hi, all.
On Jan. 17, an article was published in the Chicago Tribune questioning the use of OSR#1 in autistic children:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-autism-chemicaljan17,0,6466364.story
This will likely make it more difficult to get OSR#1, and could have further ramifications. A couple of days later, an attorney affiliated with the vaccine folks had a letter published in response to the article.
Best regards,
Rich
Hi, all.
On Jan. 17, an article was published in the Chicago Tribune questioning the use of OSR#1 in autistic children:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-autism-chemicaljan17,0,6466364.story
This will likely make it more difficult to get OSR#1, and could have further ramifications. A couple of days later, an attorney affiliated with the vaccine folks had a letter published in response to the article.
Best regards,
Rich
Dreambirdie
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I'm sorry we are such a difficult and challenging group. :Retro tongue::Retro tongue::Retro wink:
I do intend to try more of either your or Rich's B12 protocol, again eventually. But when I do, I will do it as Sushi did--with just smidges of each of the supplements.
I'm burnt on all this over-the-top detoxification... It's just too exhausting to be a healing thing.
Sushi
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Here is a report from the "methylation-field!" I was one who had lots of detox symptoms at different stages of my experience with Rich's Simple Protocol. And, could not tolerate methyle B12 at all!
At times I had to stop the protocol because the detox was overwhelming. But...after doing Laser Engergetic Detox for a bunch of pathogens and heavy metals, I no longer have a problem taking the recommended dose of the supplements.Hence, pour moi, it was definitely detox.
Best,
Sushi
Freddd
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Hi Dreambirdie,
I'm sorry we are such a difficult and challenging group.
Nothing to be sorry about. A challange is what keeps life interesting.
I'm burnt on all this over-the-top detoxification... It's just too exhausting to be a healing thing.
I do understand. I spent 16 years totally burnt out and exhausted, every system of my body breaking down and not healing. That is why I suggest that a reconceptualization might help. After having healed more than 95% via a change in conceptualization I tried the glutathione precursors and had a reaction I was told that it was "glutathione detox" reaction. I stopped the precursors. The reaction kept on going, for 6 months after stopping the precursors and showed no signs of slowing down. In fact it kept getting worse in many ways. As it worsened it became very familiar. Fifteen minutes with Google brought up the symptoms; 100% of them folate and b12 deficiency symptoms. The correctness of this hypothesis was demonstrated by all the symptoms being stopped cold within 3 days by 4800mcg of methylfolate per day, 30mg of injected mb12 daily and 51mg of sublingual adb12 once. A change in conceptualization, of hypothesis, made 100% difference.
Previously the conceptualizations of idiopathic neuropathies, myofascial pain syndrome, FMS, CFS, IBS, conversion reaction, and many others were all totally worthless at helping me and stopping the breakdown or correcting causes and healing. A reconceptualization of what constituted b12 and folate and how to apply them and what they would do completely changed everything. I am well as a result.
So how can you reconceptualize what is going on within your body so that you may heal instead of having endless "detox" reactions?
Freddd
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Here is a report from the "methylation-field!" I was one who had lots of detox symptoms at different stages of my experience with Rich's Simple Protocol. And, could not tolerate methyle B12 at all!
Hence, pour moi, it was definitely detox.
Best,
Sushi
Hi Sushi,
I don't know a thing about Laser Energetic Detox. even after looking it up and reading about it, but if it was a game changing reconceptualization for you, great. I tend to be pragmatic on these things. Good luck and good health.
Sunday
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I'm intrigued by this chelation/detox issue, thought-provoking conversations. Hope to read more.
David and Velha, I want to thank you for your suggestion that more methylfolate might help my situation. And now I'm mostly over the startup effects, I can thank you sincerely. I know that the supplements which cause the most effects are the ones that are likely to be most effective. For me, methylfolin has a brutal quality, a sort of rough edge that none of the other supplements have. I mention this because I'm curious to know if others have stories about the particular character of any one of these supplements. I know my observation is kind of touchy-feely, but sometimes those subtle aspects add something to a description. Methyfolin's more tangible startup qualities for me are an increase in OI, dizziness, PEM, insomnia, eczema, brain fog, depression, uncoordination, neuropathies, nerve pain. I may have forgotten some things, these are the most noticeable. The startup lasted about 2 weeks for me.
However - feels as if I may have turned another corner. My energy level and ability to think are definitely better, I am cautiously playing with the parameters of my new energy. I've also upped my mb12 dose in the last week.
At a little over 3 months into this protocol, I have very significant improvements in OI/dizziness, nausea, brain fog, neuropathies, nerve pain. Although adding methylfolin may have changed this, my energy level until recently has still been pretty bad, though better than my worst periods and better than when I started the protocol, when I had 3 kind of sort of functional days out of 10.
For those who are interested, here's my current list o' supplements and dosages: mb12, 5 mg; adb12, 6mg; methylfolin, 1600 mcg; fish oil 2,000-4,000; vitamin D3 2,000IU; cal/mag 1,000/500 mg; alpha lipoic acid with biotin, 100mg; vitamin A 10,000 IU plus 6,00 IU in the vitamin D; selenium as methylselenocysteine 200 mcg; potassium 99 mg; vitamin E mixed tocopherols 400 IU; zinc 50 mg; vitamin C 2,000 mg. B-Right I take daily but often forget the second dose of the day. I have been taking L-carnitine fumarate 855 mg, but just ran out and I'm going to try going without to see if I notice a difference. Every other day I take 2 mg copper, alternated on the other days with 1200 mg lecithin. I've also recently added homemade kefir from kefir grains to my diet, thought I'd mention because this seems to do significant things to the gut and may change the situation.
I'd be very happy to hear if anyone has thoughts on what I'm taking or the dosages.
An interesting observation: at the beginning of this illness, before I knew what it was, I tried adrenal and thyroid glandular supplements. I was told that thinning hair on the outer side of the eyebrows often indicates low thyroid; by the end of two months on the supplements, the hair on my eyebrows grew in. Subsequently it thinned out again, but I just noticed yesterday that it is growing back in again. Obviously there are a lot of variables here, but I can't help wondering if this might be a sign that getting the methylation going does indeed let the endocrine system do the work it needs to do; i.e., methylation is upstream of endocrine problems. I don't know, but would be curious about comments on this.
Sushi, I'm so glad to hear you've cleared the path that was preventing you from moving on, congratulations.
Dreambirdie, I hope we'll be hearing similar news about you soon. I do so sympathize with feeling like a thing instead of a human being. Every time I come out of crashy, I say that I'm passing as a functional human being.
David and Velha, I want to thank you for your suggestion that more methylfolate might help my situation. And now I'm mostly over the startup effects, I can thank you sincerely. I know that the supplements which cause the most effects are the ones that are likely to be most effective. For me, methylfolin has a brutal quality, a sort of rough edge that none of the other supplements have. I mention this because I'm curious to know if others have stories about the particular character of any one of these supplements. I know my observation is kind of touchy-feely, but sometimes those subtle aspects add something to a description. Methyfolin's more tangible startup qualities for me are an increase in OI, dizziness, PEM, insomnia, eczema, brain fog, depression, uncoordination, neuropathies, nerve pain. I may have forgotten some things, these are the most noticeable. The startup lasted about 2 weeks for me.
However - feels as if I may have turned another corner. My energy level and ability to think are definitely better, I am cautiously playing with the parameters of my new energy. I've also upped my mb12 dose in the last week.
At a little over 3 months into this protocol, I have very significant improvements in OI/dizziness, nausea, brain fog, neuropathies, nerve pain. Although adding methylfolin may have changed this, my energy level until recently has still been pretty bad, though better than my worst periods and better than when I started the protocol, when I had 3 kind of sort of functional days out of 10.
For those who are interested, here's my current list o' supplements and dosages: mb12, 5 mg; adb12, 6mg; methylfolin, 1600 mcg; fish oil 2,000-4,000; vitamin D3 2,000IU; cal/mag 1,000/500 mg; alpha lipoic acid with biotin, 100mg; vitamin A 10,000 IU plus 6,00 IU in the vitamin D; selenium as methylselenocysteine 200 mcg; potassium 99 mg; vitamin E mixed tocopherols 400 IU; zinc 50 mg; vitamin C 2,000 mg. B-Right I take daily but often forget the second dose of the day. I have been taking L-carnitine fumarate 855 mg, but just ran out and I'm going to try going without to see if I notice a difference. Every other day I take 2 mg copper, alternated on the other days with 1200 mg lecithin. I've also recently added homemade kefir from kefir grains to my diet, thought I'd mention because this seems to do significant things to the gut and may change the situation.
I'd be very happy to hear if anyone has thoughts on what I'm taking or the dosages.
An interesting observation: at the beginning of this illness, before I knew what it was, I tried adrenal and thyroid glandular supplements. I was told that thinning hair on the outer side of the eyebrows often indicates low thyroid; by the end of two months on the supplements, the hair on my eyebrows grew in. Subsequently it thinned out again, but I just noticed yesterday that it is growing back in again. Obviously there are a lot of variables here, but I can't help wondering if this might be a sign that getting the methylation going does indeed let the endocrine system do the work it needs to do; i.e., methylation is upstream of endocrine problems. I don't know, but would be curious about comments on this.
Sushi, I'm so glad to hear you've cleared the path that was preventing you from moving on, congratulations.
Dreambirdie, I hope we'll be hearing similar news about you soon. I do so sympathize with feeling like a thing instead of a human being. Every time I come out of crashy, I say that I'm passing as a functional human being.
Freddd
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Hi Sunday,
For me, methylfolin has a brutal quality, a sort of rough edge that none of the other supplements have. I mention this because I'm curious to know if others have stories about the particular character of any one of these supplements
Metafolin was a barely noticable startup for me. I have had a number of people tell me that for them Metafolin seemed to them to start the mb12/adb12 startup effects. When I was attempoting recovery from the glutathione precursors, high dose mb12/adb12 did little by them themselvies. As soon as I took the higher dose of Metafolin and then a dose of mb12 I had a fresh round of mb12 startup and the same with adb12 each in turn, Without the Metafolin neither of them was effective. My folate deficiency after the glutathione precursors was much worse than my previous natural folate deficiency before glutathione precursors and before I tried Metafolin intially..