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B-12 - The Hidden Story

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
To lebowski re glutathione and methylfolate

this is like an open university i m following with great pleasure so thanks again ..

rich so is there an explanation in ur mind ,
how the folates ,fredd use when he (and the people he knows ) use to stop that def. symptoms (the 4.8 mg one i think ) when they r on glutathione ,
can stop the detox of taking glutathione or precursors of it ?

or did u ever observed such a thing .. a person taking glutathione and having detox , but than he adds very high dose methylfolate to it , his detox stops .. can high dose folate do it according to ur theory ?

Hi, Lebowski.

I'm not sure how to explain this reported phenomenon. As I mentioned, there are several possibilities that might explain the socalled "glutathione detox" phenomenon, and I'm not sure which, if any, of them I listed are applicable.

One thing I can tell you that I learned from Marty Pall--there's a paper in the literature that describes scavenging of peroxynitrite by 5-methyl THF (Marty actually thinks that's the main or only way it helps in CFS, rather than by stimulating methionine synthase, as I've proposed). So if the glutathione detox phenomenon involves increased oxidative stress, such as by autooxidation of excess cysteine, then maybe this reaction could be involved in the improvement experienced from high-dose methylfolate. But I'm just speculating, because I'm not sure what is going on in the socalled "glutathione detox."

In any case, I no longer advocate direct boosting of glutathione in CFS. If someone wants to add it, and it helps, that's good. But I think the most important thing is to go after the methylation cycle block and let glutathione be taken care of automatically.

I should add that my position is that people doing this type of treatment need to have a physician following their case when they do it, just to be able to deal with any adverse effects that may arise. They are unusual, but they have occurred.

Best regards,

Rich
 

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
direct supplementation of glutathione

I just wanted to share an experience with direct supplementation of a gluthathione precursor..non-denatured whey.

So, I supplemented Immunopro back a couple of years ago when I was shotgunning different supplements. I can't say as I noticed much of a response.

Fast forward to now.. and I'm coming up 3 years on methylation support (thank-you Rich and Amy) and I randomly took a scoop of non-denatured whey and about 6/7 hours later, half my brain starts to feel inflamed or lets just say really uncomfortable and unpleasant. Another hour or so later, I start to feel nauseous..sick in my stomach.

I get home, down a bunch of activated charcoal and some OSR. ..boyd haley's product... and I go to bed and wake up feeling pretty good.

I'm surprised by how powerful a reaction I got from one scoop of immunopro. I'm also kind of surprised by the fact that I think I must still have metals in my brain even after some fairly aggressive and pretty unpleasant detox periods on methylation support.

Kinda wonder too if OSR isn't a great way to soak up the metals mobilised by the glutathione.. but then OSR is only supposed to work with mercury and I guess there would be a bunch of different metals in my brain, right?

So presumably OSR wouldn't mop up the other ones?

It sort of reminds me of what mike dessin's doc is doing.. using small amounts of DMPS to mop up mercury released by detox provokers..

Just food for thought.

Also, not suggesting anyone try this at home....just being my own personal guinea pig..
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I just wanted to share an experience with direct supplementation of a gluthathione precursor..non-denatured whey.

So, I supplemented Immunopro back a couple of years ago when I was shotgunning different supplements. I can't say as I noticed much of a response.

Fast forward to now.. and I'm coming up 3 years on methylation support (thank-you Rich and Amy) and I randomly took a scoop of non-denatured whey and about 6/7 hours later, half my brain starts to feel inflamed or lets just say really uncomfortable and unpleasant. Another hour or so later, I start to feel nauseous..sick in my stomach.

I get home, down a bunch of activated charcoal and some OSR. ..boyd haley's product... and I go to bed and wake up feeling pretty good.

I'm surprised by how powerful a reaction I got from one scoop of immunopro. I'm also kind of surprised by the fact that I think I must still have metals in my brain even after some fairly aggressive and pretty unpleasant detox periods on methylation support.

Kinda wonder too if OSR isn't a great way to soak up the metals mobilised by the glutathione.. but then OSR is only supposed to work with mercury and I guess there would be a bunch of different metals in my brain, right?

So presumably OSR wouldn't mop up the other ones?

It sort of reminds me of what mike dessin's doc is doing.. using small amounts of DMPS to mop up mercury released by detox provokers..

Just food for thought.

Also, not suggesting anyone try this at home....just being my own personal guinea pig..


Hi Aquariusgirl,

Your reactiion may not have anything at all to do with metals. The very discussion we are having is that it looks like that people who have reactions as you have, and I'll be posting more details in a few minutes, may be getting thrown into hard folate and b12 deficiencies induced by the glutathione generated by those supplements, as I and others appear to. In that case sufficient doses of methylfolate, adb12 and mb12 will reverse it almost as quickly. For me and several others the required doses of methylfolate turned out to be 4800mcg up from 800mcg and 10mgs of mb12 and 15mg of adb12 sublingual. I had to maintain the higher methylfolate for several months or the glutathione induced deficiency symptoms came back and I'm now at 3200mcg and will take it down again next week.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi, freddd.

I'm not sure I totally understand what you have written (above), but I think you mean that it appears that when the people with the conditions you are dealing with supplement with glutathione precursors, the effect is to counter their folate function and cause it to appear that they are deficient in folate, because their resulting symptoms can be reversed by taking more folate. Is that right?

And I think you also mean that supplementing with glutathione precursors in these people can also counter the active B12 coenzymes, and cause it to appear that they are deficient in B12. Is that right?

I'll make some comments, though I'm not sure that they will be responsive, because I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

In CFS, as it appears to me, anything that brings about a partial block in the methionine synthase enzyme in a genomically susceptible person will bring about a vicious circle interaction between this block and depletion of glutathione, so that both remain present chronically. I think this most often occurs by the initial depletion of glutathione by various causes, which leaves B12 unprotected in the cells and allows it to react with toxins. There is then insufficient production of methylcobalamin, and that causes the partial block of methionine synthase.

When methionine synthase becomes partially blocked, 5-methyl THF initially builds up in the cells, because the methionine synthase reaction, which normally converts it to THF, is partially blocked. Because 5-methyl THF does not have a glutamate tail, as do other folate forms, it is able to leak out of the cells, into the blood plasma. That is called the "methyl trap" mechanism. The result of it is that the cells become depleted in all forms of folate, as other forms are channeled into producing 5-methyl THF, and it leaves the cells.

So the combination of low methyl B12 and low 5-methyl THF in the cells is the reason that both B12 and folate must be supplied to overcome the partial block. It is observed that when this is done, glutathione rises back up to normal automatically, which verifies that there is a vicious circle mechanism that links the partial methylation cycle block to the depletion of glutathione.

Before I learned about the partial methylation cycle block from the autism researchers in late 2004, I used to encourage people to try to raise their glutathione by direct methods, such as supplying glutathione precursors. Some PWCs (perhaps most) reported that this gave them some benefit temporarily, but they had to keep doing it or they would return to their initial state. A few people could not tolerate direct boosting of glutathione. Perhaps they correspond to the people you have described.

What was going on in the people who could not tolerate this treatment? I'm not sure. Perhaps they were mobilizing toxins, in which case it would properly be called a detox effect. Perhaps cysteine was being boosted too high, since cysteine is known to be a neurotoxin if it goes too high. For the people who were using NAC as one of the glutathione precursors, perhaps they were moving mercury into their brains, since according to the work of Aposhian et al. in rats, NAC can move mercury into the brain. Perhaps this supplementation was causing the generation of too much sulfite, and the sulfite oxidase enzyme was overloaded, allowing sulfite to rise to toxic levels.
Perhaps these people had sulfate-reducing enzymes in their gut, and this supplementation was eventually leading to too much hydrogen sulfide production by these bacteria. I think there are many possibilities, and it may have been different for different people.

In your particular case, as I wrote before, I think that supplementing glutathione may have caused the conversion of methyl B12 and adenosyl B12 to glutathionylcobalamin, and your body was not able to convert it back, for genetic reasons. When you went low in methyl B12, the methyl trap mechanism then would have drained folate metabolites from your cells into the blood, which would have rendered the cells deficient in folate, as well as being deficient in active B12. Under these conditions, supplementation with active folate and active B12 would have restored the methionine synthase back to normal operation.

As I also wrote before, in other people, who do not have genetic issues with the B12 processing enzymes, it may be that the glutathionylcobalamin could not be utilized because it was not associated with a chaperone molecule, as in the normal processing of B12 in the cells.

As I understand it, you associate certain symptoms with low folate and other symptoms with low B12. I'm not sure how this works, because both are needed for the methionine synthase operation. It is true, though, that folates have a small number of other functions, the most notable being the synthesis of purines and thymidine, which are needed to make new RNA and DNA for new cells. The most rapidly proliferating cells would likely be the most sensitive to a folate depletion, such as those lining the gut and the blood cells, including both red and white cells. This is believed to be the origin of the macrocytic anemia that results when folate is low. Low B12 can also do this, because of the methyl trap mechanism, which produces low folate availability in the cells.

And B12 does have the separate function of adenosyl B12, which assists in feeding certain substrates into the Krebs cycle to produce energy in the form of ATP.

So I can sort of see how some symptoms might be associated with deficiency of one or the other, but it would seem that there would be a big overlap, because a lot of the symptoms would result from a partially blocked methylation cycle, and either low folate or low B12 can cause that.

With regard to funding, I'm in the same boat you are. Our clinical study was funded by an anonymous donor, but this donor doesn't seem to be interested in doing it again. I'm hopeful that eventually someone who is properly connected and can obtain funding will get interested in the methylation block.
There's no money in it for the drug companies, except perhaps the "medical food" supplier, because patented drugs are not involved, so the usual sources of biomedical research funding are just not there.

I'm happy to hear that you are going to run a Vitamin Diagnostics methylation pathways panel on yourself. I think the results will be very interesting.

I think that the fact that taking 200 mg of SAMe has a noticeable effect on you suggests that your methylation capacity is still below normal, even with the heavy supplementation of methyl B12. Again, I realize that I seem to keep harping on this, but I think this may be a result of the genetic issue. Those are very large dosages of B12, and ordinarily, I think they would give generous support to the methylation cycle, so that taking 200 mg of SAME would not produce a noticeable effect. So I'm guessing that your methylation cycle is still not overdriven. However, I can't be sure that this would be the case in people who don't have genetic issues with their B12 processing enzymes, but are supplementing at the same high levels you are.

You asked what would be the symptoms of an overdriven methylation cycle.
I can only try to project them theoretically from the biochemistry and my hypothesis, so I could be off the mark. However, if flow down the transsulfuration pathway is diminished because of fast conversion of homocysteine back to methionine, then I think that all the symptoms that flow from depleted glutathione, as well as depleted cysteine and taurine, would follow. These include most of the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome, according to my hypothesis.

Best regards,

Rich


Hi Rich,

I'm not sure I totally understand what you have written (above),

I will do my best to restate it clearly, concisely and explicitly.

There are two distinct groups, Group A and Group B.

1. GROUP A - This group is composed of people who are taking generally both active b12s and methylfolate. Group A1 started all 3 active items at about the same time and can't distinguish which symptoms go with with active b12 or methylfolate. Group A2 started the active b12s and/or methylfolate with sufficient spacing to see which symptoms responded specifically to which active vitamin.
2. GROUP B - This group is composed of people taking glutathione and/or precursors without specific knowledge of active b12/folate theory and with unknown status regarding and forms of b12 and folate supplements who report "glutathione detox symptoms".

GLUTATHIONE DETOX SYMPTOMS
According to one website, http://www.beccashealthtips.com/symptoms.html symptoms for glutathione caused detox reactions are low energy, achy muscles, light headedness, headaches, flu like symptoms, coated tongue, runny nose or allergy symptoms, stomach aches, uneasy digestive tract, fevers, feeling like throwing up, and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed.

METHYLFOLATE DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS
The symptoms listed for folate deficiency on other web sites are irritability, depression, sluggishness, forgetfulness, diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints, fatigue/low energy, macrocytic anemia, paleness, red sore tongue, reduced sense of taste, weight loss, confusion, difficulty walking, loss of reflexes, dementia, muscle weakness and pain, bleeding easily, heart palpitations, behavioral disorders, angular cheilitis, glossitis, diarrhea, depression, confusion, anemia, allergy symptoms.

Of these many of the short term folate deficiency symptoms match right up with the glutathione detox symptoms with at most minor differences in how they are described. I had basically all the symptoms listed as glutathione detox symptoms along with angular cheilitis which is a very specific pivot point folate deficiency symptom for me.

Many of the symptoms also overlap to mb12 and adb12 deficiency symptoms. In each case, what causes each symptom can be seen by what relieves each symptom either partially or completely in each specific case.

When GROUP A takes glutathione or glutathione precursors they develop what look like a subset of functional methylfolate and b12 deficiency symptoms. As they have watched these symptoms disappear when they began the methylfolate and adb12/mb12 it isn’t a mystery as to what they are once they get strong and definite enough to be identified. When GROUP A then takes methylfolate, adb12 and mb12 in sufficient quantity they can watch the symptoms go away promptly again. If they take mb12, adb12 and methylfolate on different days, they can watch different portions of the symptoms go away with each one added.

When GROUP B takes glutathione and/or precursors they develop what look like a subset of functional methylfolate and b12 deficiency symptoms. As they are not familiar with these symptoms by those names they give it a different name. They call it glutathione detox symptoms. These symptoms don’t generally go away by discontinuing the glutathione (precursors). However, if they take methylfolate, adb12 and mb12 in sufficient quantities, and that amount is unknown and probably specific to each person and situation, then the symptoms go away promptly just as with GROUP A. The only difference between GROUP A and GROUP B is that A recognizes the symptoms as being from vitamin deficiencies. GROUP B, not having that recognition assigns a different name and cause which is not predictive of being able to cause the symptoms to promptly start going away over several days.
So taking active b12 and folate in the first place doesn’t cause the problem, it happens without them. It merely makes them more recognizable by having cleared up those symptoms in the first place so they can be seen coming back more easily; more contrast is all. They are so easily induced in such a large percentage of people it does not really seem that any IMEs such as mine are at play in so many widely varied people; either that or they are actually very common in perhaps 1/3 of the people or so at a minimum.





 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi Rich,

For whatever reasons, I and MANY people can distinguish the effects of adb12 differently from mb12 and both of those differently from methylfolate. However, due to overlapping symptoms it gets a little complicated. For instance, mb12 normalized my sleep patterns in almost all ways. However, I hadn't dreamed for years. Methylfolate restored normal dreaming sleep to me and many others immediately. The body effects of adb12 are quite distinguisable from Mb12. The CNS effects of adb12 are quite distinguisable from mb12 though both affect some things partially and it takes both to affect them fully. At the lab level, mb12 did not affect my MCV or MCH at all. Despite years of folic acid, methylfolate brought both MCV and MCH down quickly. Each of MB12, ADB12 and methylfolate triggerred a round of hypokalemia months or years apart each within 3 days of starting. Each of the three, and 3 other items, each removed a layer of brainfog. Each of those 6 items increased energy. Only methylfolate affects angular cheilitis for me. Only methylb12 casues numb areas to tingle and restores feeling though if sufficient methylfolate is not available the mb12 is not as effective. Only hydroxyb12 or hydroxyb12 contaminated mb12 gives me acne. Only methylfolate immediateley affects allergic symptoms. Some batches of mb12 make my feet tingle and hurt like hell on the way to restoring feeling. Some batches don't tingle, hurt or restore feeling. These are a few examples, not a complete picture.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi, freddd.

I think that the fact that taking 200 mg of SAMe has a noticeable effect on you suggests that your methylation capacity is still below normal, even with the heavy supplementation of methyl B12. Again, I realize that I seem to keep harping on this, but I think this may be a result of the genetic issue. Those are very large dosages of B12, and ordinarily, I think they would give generous support to the methylation cycle, so that taking 200 mg of SAME would not produce a noticeable effect. So I'm guessing that your methylation cycle is still not overdriven. However, I can't be sure that this would be the case in people who don't have genetic issues with their B12 processing enzymes, but are supplementing at the same high levels you are.

You asked what would be the symptoms of an overdriven methylation cycle. I can only try to project them theoretically from the biochemistry and my hypothesis, so I could be off the mark. However, if flow down the transsulfuration pathway is diminished because of fast conversion of homocysteine back to methionine, then I think that all the symptoms that flow from depleted glutathione, as well as depleted cysteine and taurine, would follow. These include most of the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome, according to my hypothesis.

Best regards,

Rich


Hi Rich,

That's an easy one then. Those are all the symptoms I have gotten rid of 6 years ago and they have not come back.
 
Messages
84
urine test

hi freddd ,

i think u d said somewhere on this thread that when u take glutathione or precursors , the b12s and methylfolates r excreted with the urine , if this is the mechanism of mfolate and or b12 depletion , it can be demonstrated with an urine test .. i have a particular interest on this one because i still couldn't decide if i should use nac and whey .. and i think such an experiment with a few ppl , like 10 , wouldn't be very expensive to be made ..
 

DrD

Messages
45
I'll have the plasma amino acids done soon since the VD lab is unavailable. Mine should be a good test since we have the results before starting active B12s (Rich worked on my case and has a full history). My SAMe was low normal, SAH high, tetrahydrofolate normal, oxidized glutathione high, reduced glutathione low.


I am directly supplementating SAMe (400-600mg/day). Wouldn't this skew the results if I had the test taken, and if so, what is the recommended "dry out" or supplement fasting period prior to taking these types of tests. I would prefer not to stop the protocol for even a day , if possible.
 

DrD

Messages
45
Hi Rich,

I know that you are not a big fan of glutathione because of the bad experience you have had in supplementing it, which I think must result from the genetic issue we have discussed,

This is clearly a false assumption on your part. The reaction I had appears to be the main reaction had by persons taking active b12s and active folate who have significant results and then try the glutathione precursors. Many many people also have the same reaction and call it a GLTUTATHIONE DETOX REACTION. This name for the reaction is widely used. The symptoms are listed for glutathione detox reaction are those of acute folate deficiency with methylb12 secondarily with adb12 deficiency symptoms if taken for a longer period. None the less despite the name it is called once the precursors or glutathione is stopped the same things will quickly correct it; daily large enough doses of methylfolate, adb12 and methylb12. It has nothing at all to do with any IMEs I have unless they are very common and predominant.


hi Freddd, Rich,

Forgive me if I am off on this, but I am a bit confused. Wasn't the supplemention referred to above actually glutamine and not direct glutathione (which is difficult to do)? Glutamine gets tied into the whole glutamate excitotoxic pathways (the earlier posts that I sent out several weeks back). Couldn't this possibly account for the regression in symptoms seen by those who tried the glutamine supplematation program (2 or more grams at once on an empty stomach). Kevin's regression was much slower that Freddd's, from what I recall, and this slow regression via glutamate excitotoxory pathways could be accounted by this theory. I know that Freddd's regression was very rapid, and it does not fit this model. Were the other regressions in other people slow (over a few weeks) or very fast (hours)? (Also, I do realize that glutamine is a precursor to glutathione, but I am just trying to account for the symptom regressions from another angle)

Sorry to keep bringing this up, but it seems to be a very important, unexplained and recurring item on this forum......
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
hi Freddd, Rich,

Forgive me if I am off on this, but I am a bit confused. Wasn't the supplemention referred to above actually glutamine and not direct glutathione (which is difficult to do)? Glutamine gets tied into the whole glutamate excitotoxic pathways (the earlier posts that I sent out several weeks back). Couldn't this possibly account for the regression in symptoms seen by those who tried the glutamine supplematation program (2 or more grams at once on an empty stomach). Kevin's regression was much slower that Freddd's, from what I recall, and this slow regression via glutamate excitotoxory pathways could be accounted by this theory. I know that Freddd's regression was very rapid, and it does not fit this model. Were the other regressions in other people slow (over a few weeks) or very fast (hours)? (Also, I do realize that glutamine is a precursor to glutathione, but I am just trying to account for the symptom regressions from another angle)

Sorry to keep bringing this up, but it seems to be a very important, unexplained and recurring item on this forum......


Hi DrD,

Kevin and I both used glutamate AND NAC, a pair of precursors that are said to result in glutathione production. We both had immediate changes that built to quite substantial peaks in 6 weeks. We both had basically the same symptoms increase including lots of neurological and neuropsychiatric with personality changes and mood changes, the same increase in cobalamin output in urine and the same factors required to fully reverse it. Mine held on longer until I massively increased methylfolate and I'm not sure about Kevin. Mb12 theoretically protects against glutamate excitotoxicity, except perhaps when the mb12 is destroyed by converting it to glutathionylb12. Others, who were using glutathione infusions had the same basic results. There was no particular difference between using glutathione infusions directly and using the precursors. Others used different precursors.
 

markmc20001

Guest
Messages
877
You asked what would be the symptoms of an overdriven methylation cycle.
I can only try to project them theoretically from the biochemistry and my hypothesis, so I could be off the mark. However, if flow down the transsulfuration pathway is diminished because of fast conversion of homocysteine back to methionine, then I think that all the symptoms that flow from depleted glutathione, as well as depleted cysteine and taurine, would follow. These include most of the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome, according to my hypothesis.

Best regards,

Rich

Hey freddd, Rich and all,

Have you ever tried to supplement taurine or l cysteine for your protocol, or have any opinion on trying these? For some reason I thought cysteine can be used in the methylation process as a "donor"? or do I need to worry about it becuase it is covered throught some of the other supplements?

The reason I ask is becuase I feel like I am missing something in my methylation protocol. In the past I have tried the glutathione and NAC which have given me better energy and mood when used with the methylation supplements, however over time, the NAC and glutahione began giving me the burning feet, burning urinary tract,and dry wirey hair. So I am reluctant of keeping the precursers going due to the burning nerve pain etc. (and your experiences with the precursers), but miss the added mood, energy, appetite improvements from the precursers and glutahione. ANy ideas why I get beneft from those, but at the same time get nerve pain?

On another nerve pain inducing vitamin note, I think the OSR does the same thing to me as the other precursers. I sometimes get the improved mood but end up with nerve pain quite rapidly.

FYI: I'm doing the whole FReddd B12 protocol now. I have been able to quit all three antibiotics I was previously taking (flagyl, doxy, and amoxicillan) just to keep me out of bed all the time. This is a good thing for me, becuase the antibiotics were required to keep me out of bed. I couldn't really quit the ABX without before getting tired in just a few short days. So, the B12's have helped me quite a bit I would say for managing my bacterial infection. I aslo think my tongue is clearing up, meaning no white coating. I also maybe have a little less congestion in my nose and ears from the b12's. My sleep is better and my appetite a little better. I have quit all the anitbiotics for a month and I haven't run off the tracks yet... We will see though. can't really feel safe until a few good months pass. In this vitamin world, things can work for a few months and just stop. time will tell I guess

Haven't tried the 50mg losenge challenge yet, or tried the carnitine fumarate yet.

Mark
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hey freddd, Rich and all,

Have you ever tried to supplement taurine or l cysteine for your protocol, or have any opinion on trying these? For some reason I thought cysteine can be used in the methylation process as a "donor"? or do I need to worry about it becuase it is covered throught some of the other supplements?

The reason I ask is becuase I feel like I am missing something in my methylation protocol. In the past I have tried the glutathione and NAC which have given me better energy and mood when used with the methylation supplements, however over time, the NAC and glutahione began giving me the burning feet, burning urinary tract,and dry wirey hair. So I am reluctant of keeping the precursers going due to the burning nerve pain etc. (and your experiences with the precursers), but miss the added mood, energy, appetite improvements from the precursers and glutahione. ANy ideas why I get beneft from those, but at the same time get nerve pain?

On another nerve pain inducing vitamin note, I think the OSR does the same thing to me as the other precursers. I sometimes get the improved mood but end up with nerve pain quite rapidly.

FYI: I'm doing the whole FReddd B12 protocol now. I have been able to quit all three antibiotics I was previously taking (flagyl, doxy, and amoxicillan) just to keep me out of bed all the time. This is a good thing for me, becuase the antibiotics were required to keep me out of bed. I couldn't really quit the ABX without before getting tired in just a few short days. So, the B12's have helped me quite a bit I would say for managing my bacterial infection. I aslo think my tongue is clearing up, meaning no white coating. I also maybe have a little less congestion in my nose and ears from the b12's. My sleep is better and my appetite a little better. I have quit all the anitbiotics for a month and I haven't run off the tracks yet... We will see though. can't really feel safe until a few good months pass. In this vitamin world, things can work for a few months and just stop. time will tell I guess

Haven't tried the 50mg losenge challenge yet, or tried the carnitine fumarate yet.

Mark


Hi Mark,

I have tried Taurine once so far. I will try it twice more to see what I see. So far as I can tell it has been an absolute zero, no noticable effect of any kind.

So let's double check a few things. What kind of l-carnitine are you taking? For me, l-carnitine fumarate made a big difference that didn't happen if I took a mixture with acetyl l-carnitine and acetyl l-carnitine by itself was a zero. How much methylfolate? It took me 4800mcg a day for 3 months to recover from the glutathione precursors and I'm down to 3200mcg/day now. At one month on 4800 mcg I was unable to reduce without return of symptoms. Are you taking TMG. You might try stopping that for a week and then restart etc a couple of times to see the effect it is having on with the l-carnitine fumarate. How much mb12 are you taking? Of Jarrow brand held for 45 minutes or longer right?

Some people find the 50mg dose of either or both adb12 and mb12 to be the key(s).

How much zinc? 50-75mg/day?

I didn't have FULL reversal of all the glutathione precursor effects until a full 3 months on the methylfolate, 9 months after ending the trial and a 51mg dose of adb12. I'm was already injecting a lot of mb12. The burning feet may very well indicate a CNS/CSF induced cobalamin deficiency. The burning urinary tract appears to be epithelial breakdown, a body symptom.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
hi freddd ,

i think u d said somewhere on this thread that when u take glutathione or precursors , the b12s and methylfolates r excreted with the urine , if this is the mechanism of mfolate and or b12 depletion , it can be demonstrated with an urine test .. i have a particular interest on this one because i still couldn't decide if i should use nac and whey .. and i think such an experiment with a few ppl , like 10 , wouldn't be very expensive to be made ..

Hi Lebowski,

I know of only a cobalamin output increase because that was highly visible. I have no idea how it affected the methylfolate, but it sure did. As most methylfolate injested is excreted within 24 hours a urine test might not tell a thing. Or perhaps it would show a decrease in serum halflife from 2.6 hours to 2.5 hours which nobody would consider important.

The glutathione precursors appeared to reverse the effects of methylfolate on b12 excretion in the urine and then some.

If you were to start taking enough b12 that it shows up in your urine, and then add methylfolate and note the difference and then add the NAC and whey and note the difference I would expect there to be a visible difference in the amount of b12 excreted. As methylfolate affects the retention of b12 this appears to be an indirect indicator of methylfolate functioning.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I am directly supplementating SAMe (400-600mg/day). Wouldn't this skew the results if I had the test taken, and if so, what is the recommended "dry out" or supplement fasting period prior to taking these types of tests. I would prefer not to stop the protocol for even a day , if possible.


Hi DrD.

I though the point was to do the testing while on the supplements to see the effect of the supplements and if they were "overdriving methylation", not the unsupplemented "sick" condition. You are not trying to prove how sick you are without them at this point so why would you want to "dry out"?
 

Sunday

Senior Member
Messages
733
I've been reading the dialogue between Rich and Fred with interest.

One thing seems clear: glutathione precursors are a good thing to avoid. Is there a place I can get a list of them? I know about NAC and whey, but where can I find a list of all of them, so I know to avoid them?

After a rather gruesome second month of Fred's protocol, I seem to have turned a corner. (This may have been helped by an acupuncture treatment; my acupuncturist used the points for coming out of a stroke.) It's as if I've reached another level or perhaps peeled off another level of brain fog and fatigue.

Particularly noticeable is the lack of post-exertion malaise and brainfog after more exercise than I've been able to take for months (this amounted to a day involving four 5 + minute walks and maybe ten minutes of mild slow lap-swimming plus a sauna and a few rolls in the snow). Also, I have a five-minute walk uphill to my community college class which is both part of my exercise program and a way of monitoring where my energy is. The last time I took this walk I noticed that, while I felt it was hard and sludgy in the beginning, I warmed up and felt better at the end. That is more like my pre-CFS pattern; the CFS pattern is to start out feeling better and feel really horrible at the top.

I've also noticed a reduction in both frequency and severity of nausea, though my acupuncturist did treat specifically for this, so that muddies the waters a bit.

Thanks for all the continue support and education. I appreciate your letting me know that I'm still in the "early startup dosage" part, Fred; I hadn't been clear on what defined that.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I've been reading the dialogue between Rich and Fred with interest.

One thing seems clear: glutathione precursors are a good thing to avoid. Is there a place I can get a list of them? I know about NAC and whey, but where can I find a list of all of them, so I know to avoid them?

After a rather gruesome second month of Fred's protocol, I seem to have turned a corner. (This may have been helped by an acupuncture treatment; my acupuncturist used the points for coming out of a stroke.) It's as if I've reached another level or perhaps peeled off another level of brain fog and fatigue.

Particularly noticeable is the lack of post-exertion malaise and brainfog after more exercise than I've been able to take for months (this amounted to a day involving four 5 + minute walks and maybe ten minutes of mild slow lap-swimming plus a sauna and a few rolls in the snow). Also, I have a five-minute walk uphill to my community college class which is both part of my exercise program and a way of monitoring where my energy is. The last time I took this walk I noticed that, while I felt it was hard and sludgy in the beginning, I warmed up and felt better at the end. That is more like my pre-CFS pattern; the CFS pattern is to start out feeling better and feel really horrible at the top.

I've also noticed a reduction in both frequency and severity of nausea, though my acupuncturist did treat specifically for this, so that muddies the waters a bit.

Thanks for all the continue support and education. I appreciate your letting me know that I'm still in the "early startup dosage" part, Fred; I hadn't been clear on what defined that.

Hi Sunday,

It's as if I've reached another level or perhaps peeled off another level of brain fog and fatigue.

Particularly noticeable is the lack of post-exertion malaise and brainfog after more exercise than I've been able to take for months (this amounted to a day involving four 5 + minute walks and maybe ten minutes of mild slow lap-swimming plus a sauna and a few rolls in the snow). ... I've also noticed a reduction in both frequency and severity of nausea,

I'm not sure what you mean by "a few rolls in the snow". A few years ago there were half a dozen of us in the hottub with 18 inches of fresh Utah powder in the back yard and we all jumped out of the hottub and did snow angels. Now that was a very stimulating roll in the snow that I doubt anybody will forget. Was that the kind of roll in the snow you had coming out of a sauna or am I misinterpreting?

It's good to hear that things are improving. It sounds like you are coming out of the intial startup and dealing with healing at this point.

I appreciate your letting me know that I'm still in the "early startup dosage" part, Fred; I hadn't been clear on what defined that

You know, neither am I. At some point the shifting around of the symptoms settles down and things start changing noticably towards improving rather than just random seeming shifting as b12 saturation increases.


Keep on going. It looks like things get better from here. Good luck.
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
After a rather gruesome second month of Fred's protocol, I seem to have turned a corner. (This may have been helped by an acupuncture treatment; my acupuncturist used the points for coming out of a stroke.) It's as if I've reached another level or perhaps peeled off another level of brain fog and fatigue.

Particularly noticeable is the lack of post-exertion malaise and brainfog after more exercise than I've been able to take for months (this amounted to a day involving four 5 + minute walks and maybe ten minutes of mild slow lap-swimming plus a sauna and a few rolls in the snow). Also, I have a five-minute walk uphill to my community college class which is both part of my exercise program and a way of monitoring where my energy is. The last time I took this walk I noticed that, while I felt it was hard and sludgy in the beginning, I warmed up and felt better at the end. That is more like my pre-CFS pattern; the CFS pattern is to start out feeling better and feel really horrible at the top.

I've also noticed a reduction in both frequency and severity of nausea, though my acupuncturist did treat specifically for this, so that muddies the waters a bit.

Great to hear Sunday! Keep it going, sloooooowly.
 

markmc20001

Guest
Messages
877
what I'm taking now


So let's double check a few things. What kind of l-carnitine are you taking? For me, l-carnitine fumarate made a big difference that didn't happen if I took a mixture with acetyl l-carnitine and acetyl l-carnitine by itself was a zero.


I'm currently taking "source naturals" combo tablet; acetyl L carnitine (500mg) and Alpha Lipoic Acid (150) I take two a day. I can't really feel thes when I double my dosage, I need to experiment more with these

I just bought some "NSI" alpha lipoic acid 300mg capsules,
and "NSI" L-Carnitine fumarate 500mg capsules to replace the source naturals combo tablet listed above.


How much methylfolate? It took me 4800mcg a day for 3 months to recover from the glutathione precursors and I'm down to 3200mcg/day now. At one month on 4800 mcg I was unable to reduce without return of symptoms. Are you taking TMG. You might try stopping that for a week and then restart etc a couple of times to see the effect it is having on with the l-carnitine fumarate.

I'm taking 2400mcg day of methylfolate a day. I don't seem to be able to feel any difference between 1600 and 2400 a day, but can increase it a bit.


How much mb12 are you taking? Of Jarrow brand held for 45 minutes or longer right?

I sometimes fall asleep with these thing in,. and would imagine I hold them as long as two hours at times, but usually an hour to an hour and a half I would guess.

I take 15000mcg to 20000mcg a day of Jarrow mb12. I seem to get a pretty good nap when I increase the dosage from 15000 to 20000 a day. I usually do that at lunchtime and pop two 5000 MB12 along with the rest of the supplements. So it feels like I still benefit from an increase the dosage of the MB12.

Some people find the 50mg dose of either or both adb12 and mb12 to be the key(s).

I take three AB12 a day, haven;t done more than that.

How much zinc? 50-75mg/day?

I take enough zinc.

FYI: Caffine and alcohol really seem to set me back fast. It seems like all the MB12 just washes away fast whenever I add the smallest ammount of caffine or alocohol. I rarely do eithe, but htey set me back fast when I do.


thanks,
Mark
 

DrD

Messages
45
Hi DrD.

I though the point was to do the testing while on the supplements to see the effect of the supplements and if they were "overdriving methylation", not the unsupplemented "sick" condition. You are not trying to prove how sick you are without them at this point so why would you want to "dry out"?

hi Freddd, Yes i agree. I'm just not sure if directly supplementing SAMe and then having it measured is a valid test. I was thinking that taking SAMe and then measuring it, would greatly elevate it. Just guessing based on how we know b12 supplementation/injections work relative to serum b12 tests.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
hi Freddd, Yes i agree. I'm just not sure if directly supplementing SAMe and then having it measured is a valid test. I was thinking that taking SAMe and then measuring it, would greatly elevate it. Just guessing based on how we know b12 supplementation/injections work relative to serum b12 tests.

Hi DrD,

I suppose that woiuld depend on what the purpose of the test is. If it is to detect an "overdriven" methylation system caused byu the summation of the supplements I would expect that it would have to be tested with supplements in place. Otherwise the answer to whether it is "overdriven" is still unknown even after the test. However, this is strictly an inexperienced in that area opinion. I would ask Rich.


Just guessing based on how we know b12 supplementation/injections work relative to serum b12 tests

I don't think anybody has studied how cobalamin serum level relates to large doses of injected mb12 daily. However, if you wanted to know what the serum level was while supplementing as opposed to 2 weeks after supplementing, that is a different question and would require two tests. From the reading I have done I would suggest that it would fall 99% per day or so until down to around 3000pg/ml and then start slowing down. Nobody really knows.