B-12 - The Hidden Story

[dmholmes]

I'm a patient and can't say much more than what I have experienced thru my own trial and error. But you know, I have had that same sensitive teeth problem with both alpha lipoic acid, and the addition of b12 losenges. I think It may be some sort of healing response. After I had teeth pain and such, my gum health improved. Maybe you are getting the same deal?

I hope that is it. But I've been on the sublinguals for a couple of months before this started. It's not a tooth in particular, but kind of a widespread sensitivity in the teeth that hasn't been there before. Using a Sonicare toothbrush only makes it worse.

 

[DrD]

Here is the B12 thread at the wrongdiagnosis.com forums.

It is an incredible thread. I recommend it for all of you. There is tons of great information it. It has changed many of our lives......

 

[markmc2000]

I hope that is it. But I've been on the sublinguals for a couple of months before this started. It's not a tooth in particular, but kind of a widespread sensitivity in the teeth that hasn't been there before. Using a Sonicare toothbrush only makes it worse.

well I had numerous tooth sensitivty and tooth root paint (more local pain in teeth with dental work). sensivity to hot and especially cold. It went away after awhile for me. However, it comes back as I increase the dose of Methyl b-12 or add "co-factors" as fredd calls them. The co-factors seem to be an important part in my mind, I seem to benefit alot with the l carnitine and alpha lipoic acid. I know some are worried about methyl mercury, however I had my mercury fillings removed awhile back and my mercury levels were low when measured.

Mark

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, I am still with you, is fear a B12 deficiency? I appreciate your opinions, I am continuing with your B12 protocol. The first time I started the B12s the start-up was easier than this time. I am still dealing with some nausea even after changing the way I take my supplements, I didn't have that last time. Also this time by mid day I have jumpy legs pretty bad, last time I didn't have that reaction. I am on 1 - mb12, 1 - adb12, and 1 - B-right. I have not started the Folate. Thanks for listening.

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, I am still with you, is fear a B12 deficiency? I appreciate your opinions, I am continuing with your B12 protocol. The first time I started the B12s the start-up was easier than this time. I am still dealing with some nausea even after changing the way I take my supplements, I didn't have that last time. Also this time by mid day I have jumpy legs pretty bad, last time I didn't have that reaction. I am on 1 - mb12, 1 - adb12, and 1 - B-right. I have not started the Folate. Thanks for listening.

Lena

Hi Lena,

Fear and anxiety can certainly be b12 deficiency symptoms. Oddly, fear of b12 itself, often expressed about foods containing b12 is a relatively common symptom. As neurology starts healing all sorts of seemingluy pretty random activations of the nervous system happen. They are expressed as paresthesias in the peripheral and sensory hallucinations, shifting moods and so on when changes in the central nervous system occur. Unfortunately nausea itrself can also be caused at certain stages of going into deficiency and in coming out of deficiency. Shifting balance can also affect that. Various people have spoken of a "seasick" effect in that regard. The methylfolate might change the experiences you are having or allow you to get through them quicker or it might not. Keep on trucking.

 

[Freddd]

I hope that is it. But I've been on the sublinguals for a couple of months before this started. It's not a tooth in particular, but kind of a widespread sensitivity in the teeth that hasn't been there before. Using a Sonicare toothbrush only makes it worse.

Hi David,

I had years of widespread sensitivity and teeth sensitive to heat and cold as deficiency symptoms. They are on the list. These also can be experienced in the backwards direction at certain stages of healing as the neurology starts coming back.

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, I was looking through some old lab work that goes back to 2002 and noticed "out of range" neutrophils was high and lymphocytes was low. Would you know what that might mean? In all the blood work I have had never did I have a B12 blood test.

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, I was looking through some old lab work that goes back to 2002 and noticed "out of range" neutrophils was high and lymphocytes was low. Would you know what that might mean? In all the blood work I have had never did I have a B12 blood test.

Lena

Hi Lena,

Check out the multi segmented neutrophils. Low lymphocytes can indicate b12 deficiency as can high multisegmented neutrophils.

 

[Sunday]

Thanks for the posts on teeth sensitivity - I had been feeling it but not thought to connect it with the B12 protocol. This is such a wacky disease.

David, if you have time I'd be interested to know more details on how your brain fog disappeared with the B12s. You said it went and never came back again, but was there more to the process? Do you remember how long it took? In my own case I certainly have more clear-minded times but I definitely also fall into brain fog sometimes, this being one of them.

 

[dmholmes]

Thanks for the posts on teeth sensitivity - I had been feeling it but not thought to connect it with the B12 protocol. This is such a wacky disease.

David, if you have time I'd be interested to know more details on how your brain fog disappeared with the B12s. You said it went and never came back again, but was there more to the process? Do you remember how long it took? In my own case I certainly have more clear-minded times but I definitely also fall into brain fog sometimes, this being one of them.

My gums and teeth are in pretty good shape, so to me I have to connect it to something. I also stopped using toothpaste and drinking water that contain fluoride. Could be related.

The brain fog is very subjective I suppose. The cognitive issues and lightheadedness seemed to have subsided. I still have a weird vision issue driving at night, but I think that is neurological, and hope that goes away.

I don't recall how long it took to go away, but it must have been roughly a couple of weeks. I wasn't keeping track or expecting it to improve, just noticed one day that I wasn't having my "brain fog". I started so many supplements at the same time that it is difficult to know if it was B12 in particular or a combination.

 

[DrD]

Hi David,

I'm an ex vegetarian of sorts as I did eat eggs, milk products and occasional fish. That's probably why I survived. Their fantasies about b12 and so on were very detrimental. I could feel the differences of no meat the very first day. The explanation I was given over and over was "toxins" leaving my system. Yup, toxins like l-carnitine and b12. Now I know it was vitality and health leaking out of my system.

Of course vegetarians feel mb12 and adb12 strongly, they are very deficient. Then they misinterpret the startup symptoms and become frightened of them.


==

hi Freddd, I read through the long vegetarian post of post 355 (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169) and the only concerning issue that i see is the supposed increased cancer rates with high b12 and chronic myelogenous leukemia. I have heard about the cancer issue before. However, some of the information quoted in the threade is blatantly incorrect and misleading. The cause and effect of the b12 is not made clear. "b12 higher in patients with.... " could imply in truth that the cancer is causing liver dysfunction, for example, and a release of b12 into the serum, or that b12 is not being absorbed by the tissues. They also do not specify the type of b12 used in the case studies.

My other point about this veggie thread is that several of the posters try b12 and then back off due to dizziness, nausea, etc. Startup symptoms that I had when starting on the b12 program. It is sad, that most of the people are b12 deficient and they don't recognize it.


1. For example,
"Cases of increased cancer production in animals receiving high levels of B12 have been published. A group of French investigators reported a series of cases suggesting that B12 may stimulate multiplication of cancer cells and aggravate the disease. Patients with rheumatoid arthritis present serum B12 levels significantly higher than normal subjects. It is also known to be higher in patients with ulcerative colitis, leukemia and other serious illnesses. Breast-fed infants get only a tiny fraction of a microgram of B12 per day, even if their mothers are on a high intake. Yet, they can build neurological tissue, convert their hemoglobin from F to A type, and do other complex functions dependent on B12. Iron deficiency interferes with absorption of B12."

2. Some other quotes by the Admn of the site:
"And, to stick to the topic of the thread: I know of several people who have had cancer. In my past/naivity I suggested for these people to check their B12 levels and take supplements, after having heard that B12 overdose is never a problem, and that too little B12 was associated with various health risks, including some cancer types. When these people discussed taking B12 supplements with their doctors and their hospitals, they response was much more negative than positive. I'm not saying that we should trust most doctors or most hospitals, but these people seemed to be informed about the possible link between too much B12 and exaggerated/rapid cancer cell growth/division."

3. and
"Is B12 part of it? After all, B12 is about growth and cell division, among other things; it is necessary for the rapid synthesis of DNA during cell division. Cancer = abnormal and uncontrolled cell division."

4. and again, here no specific causal effect is given. Meat also has a lot of protein, so does protein cause cancer?

"We have another thread about cancer, but since B12 is THE nutrient that we know there is more of in meat than in plants, and high meat intake is associated with increased cancer risk, I'm posting a few more links about the meat/cancer link:

From http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/co...ncer_Risk.asp:
Eating Lots of Meat Can Increase
Cancer Risk"





5.and this one...

"In animals studies, there have been cases of increased cancer production in animals receiving high levels of B-12. It has been noted that the animals have an increased production of white blood cells such as occurs in chronic myelogenous leukemia. A case has been reported of acute myeloblastic leukemia resulting from B-12 overdose in the treatment of pernicious anemia."

6. Once again cause and effect are backwards on this one. b12 has been released by the liver due to damage, not b12 causing whatever....

"High levels of Vit B12 in the system also have been found to result in increased methyl mercury concentrations in the liver and brain(51). Methyl mercury is 10 times more potent in causing genetic damage than any other known chemical (Ramel, in(35)), and also crosses the blood-brain barrier readily. "

 

[DrD]

Hi Lena,

He didn't do a blood draw to check potassium levels? I'm glad the nauesea and dizziness are gone. Be on the alert for a change in muscle spasm characteristics. Good to hear of no liver problems. I had liver problems for at least 6 or 7 years during the deficiency periods.

====
hi Freddd, I have had one blood anomaly (in addition to the b12, RBC, and MVC issues this year), and that is a borderline elevated ALT and AST. How long did it take for your ALT and/or AST to normalize?

I have had every conceivable test for elevated liver enzymes in the past 5 years that they have been elevated, and nothing definitive was ever found.

 

[Freddd]

Yeah, sorry for posting the vegan forum thread guys. I would take it back if I could. The posts from the one person are ridiculous, it seemed that he would just search for B12 articles and come back and post reference to them. Pro or con. Not very helpful to users of that site.

Hi David,

We can each delete out posts.

 

[Freddd]

I thought about that before I posted, wasn't sure of how many others quoted. Mine is deleted.

Still one copy of it quoted

 

[DrD]

Still one copy of it quoted

Do you want me to delete my post?. I was simply pointing out the holes in all of the various links and lack of cause and effect and correlation. It is so full of holes, that it seems to be a waste of time.

 

[Freddd]

Do you want me to delete my post?. I was simply pointing out the holes in all of the various links and lack of cause and effect and correlation. It is so full of holes, that it seems to be a waste of time.

It was so bad and full of holes that it seems a real waste and very misleading to even post it at all.

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, I am absorbing the b12s, my urine is bright yellow. "yeah" Last night I took a B-right and this morning I took a B-right and my mood & anxiety has improved and so has my shaky legs. I still have not started on my new prescription for Lexapro hopefully won't need to. I am only taking 1/4 of 5mg of MB12. This afternoon I am experiencing a whole new sensation, my body feels at peace.

Thanks for listening to me.

Lena

 

[_Kim_]

Ready to start B12

Hi Freddd,

I am ready to start the B12 protocol. I've got a cart-full of supplements at i-herb. Just a few questions:

Dr. Levine tested my carnitine levels and (despite all of my grilled porterhouse steaks) the Carnitine Esters level was low. The reference range is 3.8-19.0 umol/L and my level is a 2 L. She prescribed Carnitor. Does the carnitine level indicate a B12 deficiency?

I found an earlier post on this thread where you recommended taking ALA along with l-carnitine, so I added the Jarrow Formulas, Alpha Lipoic Sustain 300 with Biotin, 300 mg to my order. I've also added sam-e, TMG, and d-ribose.

Do you suggest doing the B12 startup before adding the above co-factors? Or is it okay to start everything all at once?

Dr. Levine also put me on 500mg of Valtrex a day. Is it okay to do the B12 protocol while you're on antivirals?

Thanks,
Kim

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

I am ready to start the B12 protocol. I've got a cart-full of supplements at i-herb. Just a few questions:

Dr. Levine tested my carnitine levels and (despite all of my grilled porterhouse steaks) the Carnitine Esters level was low. The reference range is 3.8-19.0 umol/L and my level is a 2 L. She prescribed Carnitor. Does the carnitine level indicate a B12 deficiency?

I found an earlier post on this thread where you recommended taking ALA along with l-carnitine, so I added the Jarrow Formulas, Alpha Lipoic Sustain 300 with Biotin, 300 mg to my order. I've also added sam-e, TMG, and d-ribose.

Do you suggest doing the B12 startup before adding the above co-factors? Or is it okay to start everything all at once?

Dr. Levine also put me on 500mg of Valtrex a day. Is it okay to do the B12 protocol while you're on antivirals?

Thanks,
Kim

Hi Kim,

Dr. Levine also put me on 500mg of Valtrex a day. Is it okay to do the B12 protocol while you're on antivirals?

I don't know of any rteason why not but others might.

I would not suggest starting everything at once. It can be way to overwhelming and you don't learn as much.

Ideally I would suggest starting a,d,e,b-complex, calcium, magnesium, omega3 oils, potassium and other basic items if inclined, like Lecithin, chromium, selenium multiminerals etc. The ALA can be started too at this time. But not the critical cofactors. This gives the body a chance to bring any of those deficiencies up to par. After a few days, I would add Country Life adb12. This separates out the mitochondria startup to a large extent. Then after a few days start adding in Jarrow mb12. Be sure to use the brands specified for predictable response of sublinguals as there is a substantial difference in effectiveness by brand. Also method of use is important. Hold under upper lip in front for 45 minutes or longer for maximum effectiveness.

After adding in the adb12, the mb12 and things have stabilized, add in the methylfolate. After that has stabilized add the l-carnitine fumarate. That can have a much larger effect than the adb12 on energy generation. Actually whicnhever of that pair is added second is usallly the most energetic. If the carnitine/adb12 pair is very energetic you may find that the TMG and smooth that out and make it more comfortable.

After all this has stabilized add the SAM-e taking one tablet to begin with and letting that stabilize. Then add another to see if it makes any difference over the first one. Then finally, try the D-ribose. Or the D-ribose can be startede after comfort is reached on the first SAM-e. They work on different pathways.
Good luck.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, I am absorbing the b12s, my urine is bright yellow. "yeah" Last night I took a B-right and this morning I took a B-right and my mood & anxiety has improved and so has my shaky legs. I still have not started on my new prescription for Lexapro hopefully won't need to. I am only taking 1/4 of 5mg of MB12. This afternoon I am experiencing a whole new sensation, my body feels at peace.

Thanks for listening to me.

Lena

Hi Lena,

So the b-right twice a day was an important factor? Good to find out. Often finding what a good balance is can be difficult.