B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Brent]

hey Fred,

Everytime I try to incorporate methyl b12 into my regimen, It gives me brain fog and a mild headache.. why could this be? I'm currently taking 2-3mg of methylfolate.. and just incorporated thorne B complex, and SAMe... I clearly have low methylfolate per my methylation pathway results listed here:

Glutathione oxidased- 0.36 (0.16-0.50)
Glutathione reduced- 2.9 (3.8-5.5)
S-andeosylmethionine 220 (221-256)
S-adenosylhomosysteine 38.4 (38-49)
5 CH3-THF 10.4 (8.4-72.6)
10 formyl-THF 1.2 (1.5- 8.2)
5formyl -THF 1.0 (1.20-11.70)

THF .56 (0.60-6.80)
Folic acid 9.6 (8.9-24.6)
Folinic acid 8.1 (9.0-35.0)
active folate rbc 344 (400-1500)
adenosine 18.2 (16.8-21.0)


Supplementing methlyfolate over the past few weeks has done nothing to improve my symptoms.. What would you recommend I do, given the results above? I have the lowest glutahione reduced I've ever seen...

 

[Freddd]

I have been taking the Country Life P5P. I don't know if brand makes any difference that I can notice.

 

[howirecovered]

hi Freddd, can taking potassium ramp up methylation?

 

[Freddd]

hey Fred,

Everytime I try to incorporate methyl b12 into my regimen, It gives me brain fog and a mild headache.. why could this be? I'm currently taking 2-3mg of methylfolate.. and just incorporated thorne B complex, and SAMe... I clearly have low methylfolate per my methylation pathway results listed here:

Glutathione oxidased- 0.36 (0.16-0.50)
Glutathione reduced- 2.9 (3.8-5.5)
S-andeosylmethionine 220 (221-256)
S-adenosylhomosysteine 38.4 (38-49)
5 CH3-THF 10.4 (8.4-72.6)
10 formyl-THF 1.2 (1.5- 8.2)
5formyl -THF 1.0 (1.20-11.70)

THF .56 (0.60-6.80)
Folic acid 9.6 (8.9-24.6)
Folinic acid 8.1 (9.0-35.0)
active folate rbc 344 (400-1500)
adenosine 18.2 (16.8-21.0)


Supplementing methlyfolate over the past few weeks has done nothing to improve my symptoms.. What would you recommend I do, given the results above? I have the lowest glutahione reduced I've ever seen...

Hi Brent,

A few questions come up. Are you taking AdoCbl and l-carnitine fumarate? NAC? glutathione? Folic or folinic acid in any of the supplements?

Also, things like headaches and brainfog are not necessarily anything "bad". They are more like a "partial" effect and still missing some things. Also, when the nerves wake up all sorts of miserable feeling nerve pain things, including headaches, can happen. Neurological healing in my experience quite painful for months or years at a time depending upon types and severity of damage.

 

[Freddd]

hi Freddd, can taking potassium ramp up methylation?

Hi Howirecovered,

Not that I know of. Taking the potassium keeps the body from lowering tissue levels. It is the most common mineral in the body. B1, B2 and B3 ramp up parts of the cycle and reduces healing while increasing loss of potassium and/or folate.

 

[Brent]

Hi Brent,

A few questions come up. Are you taking AdoCbl and l-carnitine fumarate? NAC? glutathione? Folic or folinic acid in any of the supplements?

Also, things like headaches and brainfog are not necessarily anything "bad". They are more like a "partial" effect and still missing some things. Also, when the nerves wake up all sorts of miserable feeling nerve pain things, including headaches, can happen. Neurological healing in my experience quite painful for months or years at a time depending upon types and severity of damage.

Hi Fred,

I am not taking adocbl or L-carnitine just enzymatic methl b12, but I havent even taken that in a few weeks because of the brain fog.. . I have been taking a little bit of NAC in spurts, and it seemed to make me kind of gassy and gave me some hair loss.. I do have acetyl S glutahione that I take 300mg of per day, and I do take, along with whey protein(immunoprox).

Nothing I take contains folic acid, nor any foods. I had been contemplating and actually bought folinic acid, which I am low in and thought I would take that as well.. But since you mentioned it, i'm assuming you may think that is a bad idea?

I think youre right, and I am just missing some pieces.. Even though it does give me brain fog, it did also give some warmth, though it does not last very long. I typically have cold hands and feet while the rest of my body is warm..

I'm think of a regimen of:

Methylb12, (maybe adocbl), methylfolate, swanson b complex( only active b's, no folic), SAMe, whey, glutathione, selenium, magnesium, D3, and possible caritine. how does that sound?

 

[howirecovered]

Hi Howirecovered,

Not that I know of. Taking the potassium keeps the body from lowering tissue levels. It is the most common mineral in the body. B1, B2 and B3 ramp up parts of the cycle and reduces healing while increasing loss of potassium and/or folate.

Thanks Fred!

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fred,

I am not taking adocbl or L-carnitine just enzymatic methl b12, but I havent even taken that in a few weeks because of the brain fog.. . I have been taking a little bit of NAC in spurts, and it seemed to make me kind of gassy and gave me some hair loss.. I do have acetyl S glutahione that I take 300mg of per day, and I do take, along with whey protein(immunoprox).

Nothing I take contains folic acid, nor any foods. I had been contemplating and actually bought folinic acid, which I am low in and thought I would take that as well.. But since you mentioned it, i'm assuming you may think that is a bad idea?

I think youre right, and I am just missing some pieces.. Even though it does give me brain fog, it did also give some warmth, though it does not last very long. I typically have cold hands and feet while the rest of my body is warm..

I'm think of a regimen of:

Methylb12, (maybe adocbl), methylfolate, swanson b complex( only active b's, no folic), SAMe, whey, glutathione, selenium, magnesium, D3, and possible caritine. how does that sound?

Hi Brent,

I have been taking a little bit of NAC in spurts, and ...
acetyl S glutahione that I take 300mg of per day, and I do take, along with whey protein(immunoprox).


All three of these can cause and maintain the worst forms of b12 and folate deficiencies no matter how much you take of b12 and folate.


THE 95% REASONS B12 AND FOLATE THERAPIES FAIL

Version 2.0 - 03/10/11, Version 2.1 - 05/08/11. Version 3.0 – 10/25/2012, Version 3.1 10/26/2012, Version 11/05/2012 3.2



1) They take an inactive b12, either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12. The research validating their use was primarily for reducing blood cell size in Pernicious Anemia, keeping the serum b12 level over 300pg/ml at the end of the period between injections. They make a statistically significant effect that can be seen in lab tests in a significant percentage of people compared to placebo. They do not heal most damage done by active b12 deficiencies and have little or no effect on the vast majority of symptoms. They may even block active b12 from receptor sites hindering the effects of real b12. They both cause a keyhole effect of having only a very limited amount (estimated at 10-30mcg/day) that can actually be bound and converted to active forms. They in no way increase the level of unbound active cobalamins which appear required for most healing. They do nothing beneficial in a substantial percentage of people (20-40%) while giving the illusion that the problem is being treated and if it doesn’t work, oh well, that’s the accepted therapy. There is no dose proportionate healing with these inactive b12s because it all has to go through this keyhole. Some people are totally incapable of converting these to active forms because they lack the enzymes or ATP

2) They take active b12 as an oral tablet reducing absorption to below 1%. A 1000mcg active b12 oral tablet might bind as much as 10mcg of b12. Again the b12 has to be squeezed through a keyhole that limits the amount and is subject to binding problems in the person whether genetic or acquired.3. They take a sublingual tablet of active b12 and chew it or slurp it down quickly reducing absorption back to that same 1% and limited to binding capacity. With sublingual tablets absorption is proportionate to time in contact with tissues. I performed a series of absorption tests comparing sublingual absorption to injection via hypersensitive response and urine colorimetry.

3) Of the many brands of sublingual methylb12 only some are very effective. Some are completely ineffective and some have a little effect.

4) For injectable methylb12, if it is exposed to too much light (very little light actually is too much) it breaks down. Broken down methylb12 is hydroxyb12. It doesn’t work at healing brain/cord problems of those who have a presumed low CSF cobalamin level. That requires a flood of unbound methylb12 and adenosylb12 (2 separate deficiencies) that can enter by diffusion. Adenosylb12 from sublinguals can ride along with injected methylb12.

5) They don’t take BOTH active b12s.

6) They don’t take enough active b12s for the purpose.

7) Lack of methylfolate

8) Lack of sufficient Methylfolate, a dose can start more healing than the same dose can complete.

9) Paradoxical Folate Deficiency - Folic acid is taken which can block at least 10 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms. Folinic acid is taken which can block at least 10-20 times as much methylfolate from being active inducing folate deficiency even if methylfolate is also taken. These induced deficiency symptoms are often called "detox" symptoms.

10) Lack of l-carnitine fumarate (rarely ALCAR), the 4th of the Deadlock Quartet

11) Lack of other critical cofactors.

12) Lack of basic cofactors

13) Glutathione, glutathione direct precursors, NAC and /or whey is taken causing what is often called "detox" while actually being induced folate and b12 deficiencies.

14) Having many additional supplements and herbs of unknown interactions and effects.


All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”



Whatever distinctions are made, a key characteristic is that symptoms, once well developed, of these syndromes will include multiple tissue types, multiple systems. To the casual observer they appear to be not connected. After all what do blood abnormalities, eczema, irritable bowel syndrome, daily nausea and vomiting, severe fatigue, muscle atrophy, asthma, hypersensitive nervous system responses, muscle pains, MCS, mood and personality changes, widespread body pain, peripheral neuropathy, poly neuropathies, burning bladder, poor immune response, FMS, CFS, autoimmune response, raspy voice, unable to focus eyes, faded vision, multi sensory hallucinations and many others have in common? They all share a common set of nutritional deficiency causes. Some will argue that these are not “absolute deficiencies” but rather “functional deficiencies”. For treatment purposes that doesn’t matter unless one is trying to restrict access to treatment (insurance won’t cover)



The more severely affected a person is the harder hitting the vitamins are when started. There are several initial responses that may occur. In the popular terminology most of them are lumped together under the term “DETOX” reaction or response. These responses may start in minutes to days depending up many circumstances.



The supplements being considered here are methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, folinic acid, Metafolin-methylfolate, SAM-e, L-carnitine, glutathione, NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), Cerefolin-NAC, Whey, Metanx, Deplin.

More rarely Vitamins D – A - C, magnesium, zinc, p5p



Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey are all glutathione or glutathione precursors. The NAC typically overpowers the Cerefolin completely.

Metafolin, methylfolate, Deplin are all methylfolate

Metanx is Metafolin, methylb12 and P5P

B12 forms, in order of effectiveness and likelihood of causing the responses listed here are methylcbl, adenosylcbl, hydroxycbl, cyanocbl



Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is “detox” in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.



Group 3 symptoms, induced paradoxical folate deficiency or insufficiency are corrected quickly with titrated doses of Metafolin, methylb12 and adenosylb12. If glutathione (precursors) are the cause then larger doses of Metafolin, 7.5-15mg,or maybe more are needed. Different tissues are affected at different levels of methylfolate, it comes or goes in stages. Very strong dose proportionate characteristics are present. Serum folate levels may be high or even very high despite Metafolin responsive deficiency/insufficiency symptoms.

Group 1 symptoms respond readily to potassium. The symptoms and response to potassium may occur at a serum level of 4.3 or less.



INDUCED HYPOKALEMIA AND FOLATE INSUFFICIENCY DECISION TREE



IF taking Glutathione, NAC, Cerefolin-NAC, whey, all glutathione or glutathione precursors

AND often sudden onset of several group 3 symptoms (“Detox”) maybe in a sequence, ie pain and inflammation the first day, cheilitis occurs on day 2-3 and IBS on day 5-6, plus any group 2 symptoms. Symptoms increase for weeks or months and can vary from mild to extreme.

THEN Induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency onset. B12 deficiencies follow in a week for methylb12 deficiency symptoms and several weeks for adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms. None of the other supplements can overcome the effects of glutathione or NAC.

ELSE - all other conditions

IF injecting b12

AND itchy bumps and acne type lesions appear mostly on scalp and face but not exclusive

THEN B12 was hydroxycbl OR photolytically deteriorated methylcbl OR cyanocbl, Lesions can be reversed in days with methylcbl injections not exposed to light at all.



IF starting or adding methylb12, adenposylb12 or hydroxycbl, AND OR Metafolin (perhaps 80%)

AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden widespread healing onset. This usually occurs as soon as methylation therapy starts widespread healing process by allowing DNA replications with methylb12 and methylfolate.



IF adding adenosylcobalamin AND OR L-carnitine fumarate AND OR SAM-e to program (perhaps 50%)

AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and /or muscle growth. This usually occurs when the person has experienced muscle shrinkage perhaps from decades of inactivity, as soon as these supplements step up mitochondria functioning.



IF adding or increasing any of Vitamins D, A, E, or C, magnesium, zinc (perhaps 10%)

AND on the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



IF starting or increasing folic acid

AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folic acid is the most oxidized form of folate that anybody can use. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



IF starting or increasing folinic acid

AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is a less oxidized form of folate than folic acid.. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



IF an increase in dietary vegetable folate, “green drinks”, a garden feast

AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (or Insufficiency). Folinic acid is the primary form found in vegetable source. In some unknown percentage of people who appear unable to convert folinic acid adequately to methylfolate the accumulating unconverted folinic acid can actually block the methylfolate.



IF starting or increasing folic acid AND OR starting or increasing folinic acid AND OR an increase in dietary vegetable folate

AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

AND usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency AND this can be the onset of Hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing



IF starting or Methylfolate – Metafolin starting low and titrating

AND the approximately 3rd day or later onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 1 and/or group2

AND OR usually takes a number of days to accumulate to a level leading to onset of symptoms (“Detox”) from Group 3 and/or group2

THEN this can be the onset of Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency, a “donut hole” deficiency. The effects of folate deficiency/insufficiency comes in layers. Several tissue groups can be healing at the same time as other tissue groups are deteriorating. IBS and angular cheilitis can be worsening at the same time as muscles are healing or growing. There is a dose of Metafolin that can start more tissue formation than the same dose can sustain causing a Paradoxical Folate Insufficiency at the same time. In some people at least as they increase Metafolin the need for potassium increases approximately proportionately. The donut hole can be closed with total daily doses of Metafolin of about 15mg for many people.

 

[Brent]

Thank you for that fred,

So what youre saying is that taking glutahione precursers deplete b12 and methylfolate.. Even crucifierous veggies? It actually makes sense to me because when I eat them my hair starts to fall out and I feel worse.. Same goes with taking Whey.. I guess the point is to build up b12 so this doesnt happen than...

 

[Freddd]

Thank you for that fred,

So what youre saying is that taking glutahione precursers deplete b12 and methylfolate.. Even crucifierous veggies? It actually makes sense to me because when I eat them my hair starts to fall out and I feel worse.. Same goes with taking Whey.. I guess the point is to build up b12 so this doesnt happen than...

HI Brent,

I have never seen the problem with veggies, However they present a different problem from the glutathione. Some people can't convert veggie folates to methylfolate and they can build up to the point that they block the methylfolate causing paradoxical folate insufficiency. Glutathione combines with all the free b12 in the body and flushes it out via urine in hours. Then the person goes into methyltrap with folate deficiency symptoms. The results are called "glutathione detox" or "NAC detox" or "green drink detox" depending upon how the person induced the b12 and or folate deficiencies. It can take some weeks and for me some large doses to get b12 and folate back into my brain and stop the worsening Sub Acute Combined Degeneration that it induced.


HOW TO INDUCE SUBACUTE COMBINED DEGENERATION and enlarged MCV in humans in 3 months or less.



Causing SCD and macrocytic anemia was NEVER our intention, our intention was to induce heakth benefits from glutathione or precursors as claimed these days amongst certain practitioners. This is just how it turned out, 180 degrees from what we expected.



Individual results will vary but in an N=10 trial, 100% of subjects had the results to varying degrees, perhaps as they used several different precursor combos or infusions. The subjects were all successful with adb12, mb12 and Metafolin. Those not in this group that had never relieved the deficiency symptoms claimed pain relief from the glutathione as their nerves were damaged further into numbness.

Method 1 - feed subjects 1 gram of l-glutamine and 600mg of time release NAC twice a day for duration (or frequent glutathione infusions, or NAC or whey in some). In 3 hours after first dose most of available b12 in the body will be flushed out in the urine. Then within the next few hours methylfolate is expelled from the cells via the "methyl trap". Widespread body, muscle and joint, inflammation and pain start within hours and gets worse by the day. This is responsive to NSAIDS generally. Folate deficiency symptoms appear the first day, mb12 deficiency symptoms in several days and adb12 deficiency symptoms - 3 months or so.

Over the next days and weeks, CPR heads for the roof. Hypersensitivity of all sorts starts, MCS, hyper-immune response, hypersensitivity in nerves, etc. In 3 days angular cheilitis starts up in those who are prone to it. In 2 more days IBS starts. At about the same time acne type lesions start up on scalp and face and often infected follicles in other body areas. Oral lesions usually follow. By six weeks centrally mediated numbness and pain of feet and legs, hands, arms, shoulders etc are all spreading and worsening.

Dr Jeckyl leaves the house and is replaced with Mr Hyde for the duration. Sleep disorders increase. In 3 months macrocytosis is obvious, MCV > 100. MS will be dramatically worsened. If the person is also extremely low on l-carnitine and/or adb12 Parkinson's like symptoms may worsen explosively. Then if l-carnitine is given the subject may go absolutely nuts and a walkthrough of the extreme FFF characteristics of the limbic system will be demonstrated in usually the same order each time, dependent upon rising or falling l-carnitine level.

Reversal, if SCD is not allowed to go too far is multiple 15mg doses of Metafolin (Deplin) and three 50mg mb12 doses or 10mg SC injections of SUITABLE 5 star mecbl until healed for at least a year, and of adcbl the first few days. On day 3 need for potassium will increase by 2000-3000mg to avoid dramatic sudden onset of Hypokalemia symptoms when backlogged healing starts up. Also on day 3 Metafolin dosage needs increase. In about a month inflammation will be largely gone if all cofactors are present that are needed, CRP <=1.0, multitudes of pains will be fading. Only the remyelination and MCV take about 9 months to correct to the extent that they can but trail on for years as it is an ongoing equilibrium that is either getting better or worse.

 

[Brent]

HI Brent,

I have never seen the problem with veggies, However they present a different problem from the glutathione. Some people can't convert veggie folates to methylfolate and they can build up to the point that they block the methylfolate causing paradoxical folate insufficiency. Glutathione combines with all the free b12 in the body and flushes it out via urine in hours. Then the person goes into methyltrap with folate deficiency symptoms. The results are called "glutathione detox" or "NAC detox" or "green drink detox" depending upon how the person induced the b12 and or folate deficiencies. It can take some weeks and for me some large doses to get b12 and folate back into my brain and stop the worsening Sub Acute Combined Degeneration that it induced.


HOW TO INDUCE SUBACUTE COMBINED DEGENERATION and enlarged MCV in humans in 3 months or less.



Causing SCD and macrocytic anemia was NEVER our intention, our intention was to induce heakth benefits from glutathione or precursors as claimed these days amongst certain practitioners. This is just how it turned out, 180 degrees from what we expected.



Individual results will vary but in an N=10 trial, 100% of subjects had the results to varying degrees, perhaps as they used several different precursor combos or infusions. The subjects were all successful with adb12, mb12 and Metafolin. Those not in this group that had never relieved the deficiency symptoms claimed pain relief from the glutathione as their nerves were damaged further into numbness.

Method 1 - feed subjects 1 gram of l-glutamine and 600mg of time release NAC twice a day for duration (or frequent glutathione infusions, or NAC or whey in some). In 3 hours after first dose most of available b12 in the body will be flushed out in the urine. Then within the next few hours methylfolate is expelled from the cells via the "methyl trap". Widespread body, muscle and joint, inflammation and pain start within hours and gets worse by the day. This is responsive to NSAIDS generally. Folate deficiency symptoms appear the first day, mb12 deficiency symptoms in several days and adb12 deficiency symptoms - 3 months or so.

Over the next days and weeks, CPR heads for the roof. Hypersensitivity of all sorts starts, MCS, hyper-immune response, hypersensitivity in nerves, etc. In 3 days angular cheilitis starts up in those who are prone to it. In 2 more days IBS starts. At about the same time acne type lesions start up on scalp and face and often infected follicles in other body areas. Oral lesions usually follow. By six weeks centrally mediated numbness and pain of feet and legs, hands, arms, shoulders etc are all spreading and worsening.

Dr Jeckyl leaves the house and is replaced with Mr Hyde for the duration. Sleep disorders increase. In 3 months macrocytosis is obvious, MCV > 100. MS will be dramatically worsened. If the person is also extremely low on l-carnitine and/or adb12 Parkinson's like symptoms may worsen explosively. Then if l-carnitine is given the subject may go absolutely nuts and a walkthrough of the extreme FFF characteristics of the limbic system will be demonstrated in usually the same order each time, dependent upon rising or falling l-carnitine level.

Reversal, if SCD is not allowed to go too far is multiple 15mg doses of Metafolin (Deplin) and three 50mg mb12 doses or 10mg SC injections of SUITABLE 5 star mecbl until healed for at least a year, and of adcbl the first few days. On day 3 need for potassium will increase by 2000-3000mg to avoid dramatic sudden onset of Hypokalemia symptoms when backlogged healing starts up. Also on day 3 Metafolin dosage needs increase. In about a month inflammation will be largely gone if all cofactors are present that are needed, CRP <=1.0, multitudes of pains will be fading. Only the remyelination and MCV take about 9 months to correct to the extent that they can but trail on for years as it is an ongoing equilibrium that is either getting better or worse.

Well sulfur rich veggies such as broccolii and cauli are very high in glutathione precurser so I'd imagine thats what they are doing too me, but who knows. I dont eat them very often because of these reactions I get. I cook the hell out of them too. I'm going to give b12 another shot, so ill just push past the initial reactions.

 

[Freddd]

Well sulfur rich veggies such as broccolii and cauli are very high in glutathione precurser so I'd imagine thats what they are doing too me, but who knows. I dont eat them very often because of these reactions I get. I cook the hell out of them too. I'm going to give b12 another shot, so ill just push past the initial reactions.

Hi Brent,

Just "pushing" through isn't the thing. That is dangerous and doesn't work. Analyze the responses. There are things that have to be treated properly. Hypokalemia can end up in the ER of cemetery if someone tries to push through. That is a dangerous word and idea. If you look up the page 4 posts to post 2848 you will see a sorting of symptoms and analysis of how one got there to try to identify the nature of the induced deficiencies, usually potassium and folate, but sometimes induced by too much of certain vitamins.

So viewed a different way, one wants to identify the flags of healing versus unavoidable things. So low potassium and folate symptoms can be corrected by increasing those things and making sure there are not other causes for them such as too much B1, B2 or B3 or ?? Other things like a visual brightening is correction of a literal dimming of vision that occurs with these deficiencies. In fact there is a "dimming" of any and all senses as well as alterations. Healing of the nervous system can be very painful and can lead to volatile emotions and all that. However, emotional changes accompanied by low potassium or low folate symptoms can be a result of that as well. I have never seen anyone have substantial neurological recovery without the nervous system attempting to return to normal from it's damaged and debilitated condition. There are plenty of horror stories about what the induced deficiencies are, what the neurological brightening means and must be. Its difficult for many people accept the reversal of methyltrap. Remember how one crashes and is very sick going into methyltrap? Well the rapid changes of coming out of methyltrap is very noticeable and intense. ATP crash is intense. They often come on together when a person suddenly comes down with what turns out to be CFS and can't walk 50 feet for 3 months. Coming out of it is every bit as intense. Some things can be done with finesse. L-carnitine can be microtitrated at 100mcg or below, easily and that can control degree of certain neurological responses. But remember, it is impossible to turn on mitochondria without noticing it. The scare stories you choose to believe and act upon will very possibly control whether you heal or not or to what extent. If you can approach more as a very complex puzzle with the assumption it can be solved I think that one is more likely to come up with solutions than if doesn't believe that a solution exists. Nobody looks for what they are sure can't exist.

 

[Brent]

Hi Brent,

Just "pushing" through isn't the thing. That is dangerous and doesn't work. Analyze the responses. There are things that have to be treated properly. Hypokalemia can end up in the ER of cemetery if someone tries to push through. That is a dangerous word and idea. If you look up the page 4 posts to post 2848 you will see a sorting of symptoms and analysis of how one got there to try to identify the nature of the induced deficiencies, usually potassium and folate, but sometimes induced by too much of certain vitamins.

So viewed a different way, one wants to identify the flags of healing versus unavoidable things. So low potassium and folate symptoms can be corrected by increasing those things and making sure there are not other causes for them such as too much B1, B2 or B3 or ?? Other things like a visual brightening is correction of a literal dimming of vision that occurs with these deficiencies. In fact there is a "dimming" of any and all senses as well as alterations. Healing of the nervous system can be very painful and can lead to volatile emotions and all that. However, emotional changes accompanied by low potassium or low folate symptoms can be a result of that as well. I have never seen anyone have substantial neurological recovery without the nervous system attempting to return to normal from it's damaged and debilitated condition. There are plenty of horror stories about what the induced deficiencies are, what the neurological brightening means and must be. Its difficult for many people accept the reversal of methyltrap. Remember how one crashes and is very sick going into methyltrap? Well the rapid changes of coming out of methyltrap is very noticeable and intense. ATP crash is intense. They often come on together when a person suddenly comes down with what turns out to be CFS and can't walk 50 feet for 3 months. Coming out of it is every bit as intense. Some things can be done with finesse. L-carnitine can be microtitrated at 100mcg or below, easily and that can control degree of certain neurological responses. But remember, it is impossible to turn on mitochondria without noticing it. The scare stories you choose to believe and act upon will very possibly control whether you heal or not or to what extent. If you can approach more as a very complex puzzle with the assumption it can be solved I think that one is more likely to come up with solutions than if doesn't believe that a solution exists. Nobody looks for what they are sure can't exist.

Hey Fred,

I didn't want to alarm you, what I meant to say was that I can tolerate the brain fog and a mild headache if from the b12 if that's whats going to happen initially happen till I include the right things. I haven't had anything any real negative effects from b12 as far as detox or die off. Perhaps some lethargy. I don't have a problem with fatigue, just motivation, zest for life, mood, hypothyroid symptoms. I just didn't want to give you the impression that I am someone who is severely sick. I am sick, as evidenced by my methylation panel, but not someone who is bed ridden.. I know that when fatigue does arise i'm suppose to take potassium. I usually do that in the form of potatoes or OJ, both are very rich in potassium, which are staples in my diet anyhow.

Interesting that you mention overdoing it on B's, because I was wondering what kind of upper limit you would recommend for those.. I purchased this: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swan...ed-b-complex-high-bioavailability-60-veg-caps

Do you think these amounts are safe for daily intake?

 

[Freddd]

Hi Brent,

For best results the b-complex needs to taken twice a day. It has

1. B1 - Thiamin, 54.4mg
2. B2 - Riboflavin 50mgs
3. B3 - Niacin 100mg

the one I take has

1. B1 - 15mg
2. B2 - 10.2mg
3. B3 - 50mg

Double everything for twice a day for halflife considerations.

When I had an extra 100mg each of b1 and b2 and b3, the potassium and folate needs were approximately insatiable.
Where that happens for any given person including myself I have no idea, just that it does and other people also have had the experience of definitely too much. I was going to do some titrations to see where I get into trouble versus increased healing.

Is that one TOO MUCH? It would be for me on at least 1 or two things. Is it for you? I don't know.

 

[Journeyman]

Hi Journeyman,

Prior to a few years ago, there was no L-methylfolate of any type available. Then Merck developed a process for making a STABLE form of L-methylfolate and markets it under the brand name Metafolin. Merck enforces contract rules that says that the vitamin forms, aside from dose, must be of the same quality and characteristics as it's licensed prescription forms. There are several variations on l-methylfolate currently. I have only personally tried and run titrations with Metafolin. I take the Solgar Metafolin, about $13/100 800mcg at iherb. Amongst the vitamin brands of Metafolin, the inactive ingredient's may vary.

I take the Jarrow Alpha Lipoic Acid extend, it's a bilayer tablet. I have never heard any comparisons by brand so I use a usually reliable brand. I take NatureMade B-Complex with Vitamin C, very basic and then add p5p. I have for now eliminated all the extras and will slowly increase them one at a time, round robin with weeks between each change.

Hi Fredd,

I've just been looking at a Multi B to include as part of my upcoming order after reviewing http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-complex-without-folic-acid.19352/page-4 but it seems very hard to find one that doesn't include either (1) too much vitamin A (2) Too much niacin (3) folic acid of the wrong type.

Thorne Basic B seems the best choice albeit having too much Niacin? but can we be sure its purely 5MTHF given the wording 'Folate (as L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate from L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic Acid, Glucosamine Salt) - is the ",glucosamine salt" code for 'some form of folate other than 5MTHF' ?

Furthermore: why is Anabol aB12 recommended when it includes the version of folate that is supposed to cause up to 10 fold reduction in availability of the useful 5MTHF. It seems Source Naturals version of Dibencozide is thus a better choice to obtain the necessary Adenosylcobalamin so I can get moving with the quartet.... I suppose I'll have to look at getting a pill cutter to ensure I'm not overdosing on B12 (3mg per a tablet might be too much when taken with the 2mg of Methyl B12 I plan to supplement as part of the regime).... Again if anyone has any alternate recommendations I'm all ears...
PS - will taking aB12 with mB12 sublingually/orally reduce the absorption/effectiveness of either? Should one be injected and the other sublingual..?

 

[Sea]

Furthermore: why is Anabol aB12 recommended when it includes the version of folate that is supposed to cause up to 10 fold reduction in availability of the useful 5MTHF. It seems Source Naturals version of Dibencozide is thus a better choice to obtain the necessary Adenosylcobalamin so I can get moving with the quartet.... I suppose I'll have to look at getting a pill cutter to ensure I'm not overdosing on B12 (3mg per a tablet might be too much when taken with the 2mg of Methyl B12 I plan to supplement as part of the regime).... Again if anyone has any alternate recommendations I'm all ears...
PS - will taking aB12 with mB12 sublingually/orally reduce the absorption/effectiveness of either? Should one be injected and the other sublingual..?

There is no folate of any kind in the Anabol Dibencoplex (AdB12)

http://www.iherb.com/Anabol-Naturals-Dibencoplex-10-000-30-Capsules/9849

 

[Journeyman]

Thx for clarifying that Sea - I was looking at the country life version of dibencozide as it turns out!
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Gluten-Free-Active-B12-Dibencozide-3000-mcg-60-Lozenges/1637

Am now trying to find the page showing the zones and the corresponding dosage recommendations (including ratios of MeB12/adB12/5MTHF/LCF so I know what ratio to order in too!

 

[Sea]

Thx for clarifying that Sea - I was looking at the country life version of dibencozide as it turns out!
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Gluten-Free-Active-B12-Dibencozide-3000-mcg-60-Lozenges/1637

Am now trying to find the page showing the zones and the corresponding dosage recommendations (including ratios of MeB12/adB12/5MTHF/LCF so I know what ratio to order in too!

I remember it took me at least a month to get my first iherb order worked out. There's only so much reading and comparing that I can do at a time. It does get easier.

 

[Freddd]

Nice work Fredd - and Jarrow's again for P5P or any others so I can complete my order?

Hi Journeyman,

I have used several usually reliable brands of p5p and never found a noticeable difference.

 

[Journeyman]

Hi Journeyman,

I have used several usually reliable brands of p5p and never found a noticeable difference.

I'm finding it really difficult to work out a good starting point in terms of ratio of the 4 components of the deadlock quartet before I place my order and its frustrating the hell out of me. I've been pouring over the most applicable link I can find here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/page-3 and getting utterly confused as to what the actual dosages are for the various zones.

For example, in one section theres talk of 1mg of methyl b12 being able to bind as much as 10mcg of B12. Read in the context of '100mcg is the starting point for inducing healing' I'm now thinking that in practical terms I need 10mg of methyl B12 (from a 5 star brand !) to get an effective dosage of 100mcg. What does this really mean remembering I'm trying to work out how many 1mg meB12 tablets I'm gonna need per day and thus how many bottles to see me through for a few months....

The next question is what is a good guide as to the relative amount of 5MTHF that I should then take to accompany the B12 dose. What is the ratio for someone like myself (just asking roughly here) given I have the A1298 and C677 mutations on my folate processing genes..

If its any clearer, I'll be looking for how many of the Enzymatic B12 sublinguals, Dr's Now LCF, Anabol Dibencozide (adB12) and Solgar Metfolin 800mcg and potassium I'll be looking to start with to achieve the kinds of healing desired for zone 2 / 3....