B-12 - The Hidden Story

[hixxy]

Is it possible to get the Methylation Panel Rich recommends done without a doctor? My doctor won't sign off on it...

 

[maddietod]

A chiropractor or naturopath can order it in the US; that's how I got the test.

Madie

 

[rydra_wong]

Sorry, Angela, but i wrote this a bit ago and I found the P5P DID help me and I no longer have the startup issue I was having. Remember I am different from the average CBS person no doubt since I use high dose DHEA to regulate it and also high dose antioxidants. To get startup symptoms to go away I took 1 extra 800mcg mfolate plus 300mg P5P plus 2g TMG and I had no further problem with that. (1 day only, then I fell back to my 50mg P5P and 1g TMG and no extra mfolate). Not saying I have no problem - I have my unilateral brain swelling back (not as bad as before) and so I need to get my thyroid checked again.

Today I was so sick of this headache that I decided to try to up my brain perfusion. I did so and got the vicks vaporun feeling from adding this extra: 3 extra 800mcg mfolate, 2g. extra TMG, 300 mg extra P5P, 150mg curcumin, some huge dose gingko (Ginkgold, which is proven to raise brain perfusion). Still had th eheadache, but my brain felt pretty good with that.

Perhaps of interest to anyone with the COMT +/+ mutation like me, Gingko lowers dopamine, lowers prolactin, raises testosterone. Made me wonder if I should take it as a female except that I already knew it works for perfusion. I guess I'll make sure not to take it during allergy season when for some reason my dopamine goes low anyway. I think it's possible for the COMT people to wind up with too much dopamine so gingko may be useful to keep in mind. Certainly if I were an aging male, I would be VERY interested in this.

Rydra

P.S. So you are telling me that you *know* for a *fact* that if the average person with the CBS gene starts by taking P5P to lower astronomically high homocysteine they will feel WORSE? I cannot believe that. High homocysteine degrades every part of your body.
I think you are presuming that homocysteine is already low for CBS but that neither is no was true for me! My homocysteine was 12
before I started on active B's and it was only that low because I was on 100mg B6 with 100mg choline (basically an inactive B100 complex each and every day). Without that, it would have been extremely high. Despite two CBS mutations, one +/+. So...I dont think its across the board.

I stand by the need for taking a homocysteine test. You cant guess what it is by your genes. I am so glad I ran my homocysteine before I got my genes mapped because I would have been assuming all the wrong thinvs otherwise.

I observe that taking extra P5P causes NO extra flushing of homocysteine as long as 1-2g TMG is provided. What P5P flushes is any extra homocysteine that cannot be quickly recycled, which is AS IT SHOULD BE because homocysteine can blow out your kidnies among all other sorts of awful things. If you have the SUOX gene I do not know how to weight sulfite against homocysteine. But I dont think you can just choose to let the homocysteine, a neurotoxin, sit around. It has to be drained away. So if you have such issues you need to stop eating sulfur totally and then find out little by little how much you can tolerate. somehow I think it you are sulfur intolerant you must know it...like feel bad after you eat it. So...when Yasko tried P5P was it in conjunction with TMG? Because I think they should go together and be first in order to spare kidneys, blood vessles, eyes, heart, brain, nerves, etc. This is very much how it works for me.

 

[hixxy]

As far as your SNP specific treatments go. How are you deciding what to do about the SNPs? Medical practitioner? Based on Yasko's protocols? Or is there more readily available information out there about nutrigenomics that I'm ignorant of? I'm in the process of getting my testing done.

 

[rydra_wong]

As far as your SNP specific treatments go. How are you deciding what to do about the SNPs? Medical practitioner? Based on Yasko's protocols? Or is there more readily available information out there about nutrigenomics that I'm ignorant of? I'm in the process of getting my testing done.

I just read them myself and make my own decisions. I made no protocol changes as a result for basic protocol. BUt when I have health problems I now have a clue what to take to get out of them. Like when I can't pee I now know it is because I cant make enough BH4 and I have made myself a list of "things that increase BH4" to help. Etc. Yasko recommends more nutrients than even I take and I am already nauseated from my protocol.

Angela sounds like she has a great doctor that can help with that - she is Yasko-esque but also makes her own judgements. Yasko showed us the method but others can take her start and go on from there.

Rydra

 

[Pea]

How much Solgar metafolin should he take per day considering below; he currently is taking 800mcg. x 2, but that was to offset a large amount of folic acid he no longer is taking. Should I just have him take one in the morning?:
2 multi's/day plus the B12s, he will be taking 6.15mg. of MethylB12 and 1.225mg. of AdB12 per day.
2 multi's/day will be taking 167mcg. calcium folinate, and 167 mcg. of L-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid per day
Plus the Adb12 has 200 mcg. folic acid per day

So TMG should be added before SAM-e? My friend will be getting 3 mg. of P5P with new multi's (Thorne V); I bought some 50mg. of P5P but I don't want things to get out of balance; I will probably wait on that.

P.S. From the list he's an undermethylator.

When does everybody take their multi's - I was going to have him take one in a.m. after eating and then in p.m.

Also my friend is allergic to sulfates on his skin - is there a clue there re: sulfur??

 

[Freddd]

How much Solgar metafolin should he take per day considering below; he currently is taking 800mcg. x 2, but that was to offset a large amount of folic acid he no longer is taking. Should I just have him take one in the morning?:
2 multi's/day plus the B12s, he will be taking 6.15mg. of MethylB12 and 1.225mg. of AdB12 per day.
2 multi's/day will be taking 167mcg. calcium folinate, and 167 mcg. of L-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid per day
Plus the Adb12 has 200 mcg. folic acid per day

So TMG should be added before SAM-e? My friend will be getting 3 mg. of P5P with new multi's (Thorne V); I bought some 50mg. of P5P but I don't want things to get out of balance; I will probably wait on that.

P.S. From the list he's an undermethylator.

When does everybody take their multi's - I was going to have him take one in a.m. after eating and then in p.m.

Also my friend is allergic to sulfates on his skin - is there a clue there re: sulfur??

HI Pea,

If he has no sign of any kind of folate deficiency, and I wouldn't push it since 1600mcg is not all that much, I would cut him back a quarter of a pill at both doses at the same time. I would not go below 2 doses of 400mcg per day. If folate deficiency pops up, be prepared. Also, watch out for low poassium.

The TMG has variable effects. I found it's main effect was to take the "wired" edge off th l-carnitine fumarate, I don't know why, but it changed the balance and others have used it for the same thing. I added it after the SAM-e others before. This one appears to be highly variable in effect and effectivness. I take everything I take with meals to prevent stomach upset, except for TMG, SAM-e, L-carntine fumarate, DHEA and pregnenolone, all before breakfast.

 

[Pea]

I think I'll cut out the evening 800 mcg. Folapro, and have him take 2 multi's in the evening & one in the morning. Then he'll be getting a variety of folate, vitamins, & minerals. I may also switch from the 3 mg. Adb12 to the 10 mg. which does not have folic acid, and cut it in half so he'll have 5 mg of Adb12.

I read that selenium can be a co-factor too? I found a really good chart in Wikipedia about the minerals & electrolytes but I didn't save it.

 

[Nielk]

About 6 weeks ago I had my B12 serum level checked and it was high 1,600 (200-1100)
I just had it checked again and have not taken any form of B12 and its higher >2,000 (200-1100)

Can anyone explain why this is happening or what it means?

 

[hixxy]

I don't suppose anyone can point me to a sample report for the methylation panel that I can show my doctor?

 

[Freddd]

About 6 weeks ago I had my B12 serum level checked and it was high 1,600 (200-1100)
I just had it checked again and have not taken any form of B12 and its higher >2,000 (200-1100)

Can anyone explain why this is happening or what it means?

Hi Nielk,

That is an increase of 2mcg content in 5 liters of blood. That can happen from a steak dinner or an order of clams. It doesn't take much. That is one of the problems with serum level cobalamin, it is volitile. Further it can also be waste cobalamin carrying toxins for excretion. It could be happening for all sorts of normal ordinary reasons and mean nothing at all.

 

[Nielk]

Hi Nielk,

That is an increase of 2mcg content in 5 liters of blood. That can happen from a steak dinner or an order of clams. It doesn't take much. That is one of the problems with serum level cobalamin, it is volitile. Further it can also be waste cobalamin carrying toxins for excretion. It could be happening for all sorts of normal ordinary reasons and mean nothing at all.

Thanks Fredd,

I appreciate your response. Since the level is so high, do you think that I still need to supplement with more B12?

 

[rydra_wong]

About 6 weeks ago I had my B12 serum level checked and it was high 1,600 (200-1100)
I just had it checked again and have not taken any form of B12 and its higher >2,000 (200-1100)

Can anyone explain why this is happening or what it means?

My take on this is that I would get a homocysteine test (about $60) because that is the organic test that shows whether or not you have enough mB12, mfolate, TMG, P5P, and methionine. Perfect is 6.3. For every 3 points higher you have a 35% higher risk of stroke or cardiac event. You want to know if your body can use what you are taking and that is what an organic acid test determines. If you are at or close to 6.3 then you can try to cut back on your methylation protocol and retest. Until you determine the least you can tatke to stay on the money.

I dont trust B12 tests - they are not organic acid tests. They can say you are replete or even high when in fact your body cant even use the supplement.

Your other measures showed you have an infection going and the BUN/creatinine ratio detects kidney problems. Sometimes medications or ...? can cause kidney problems. I would find it important to find out what is bothering my kidneys. For instance, tylenol can cause kidney problems. Kidney problems will raise homocysteine, a neurotoxin. idk what causes it. But look at everything you take and ask your doctor to help you problem solve. Then retest.

 

[Nielk]

My take on this is that I would get a homocysteine test (about $60) because that is the organic test that shows whether or not you have enough mB12, mfolate, TMG, P5P, and methionine. Perfect is 6.3. For every 3 points higher you have a 35% higher risk of stroke or cardiac event. You want to know if your body can use what you are taking and that is what an organic acid test determines. If you are at or close to 6.3 then you can try to cut back on your methylation protocol and retest. Until you determine the least you can tatke to stay on the money.

I dont trust B12 tests - they are not organic acid tests. They can say you are replete or even high when in fact your body cant even use the supplement.

Your other measures showed you have an infection going and the BUN/creatinine ratio detects kidney problems. Sometimes medications or ...? can cause kidney problems. I would find it important to find out what is bothering my kidneys. For instance, tylenol can cause kidney problems. Kidney problems will raise homocysteine, a neurotoxin. idk what causes it. But look at everything you take and ask your doctor to help you problem solve. Then retest.

Thanks rydra so much for your detailed response to me. I think you are on to something because I also have symptoms of edema - swelling in my hands, feet and stomach. I will get it checked out. I really appreciate your help.

 

[rydra_wong]

Thanks rydra so much for your detailed response to me. I think you are on to something because I also have symptoms of edema - swelling in my hands, feet and stomach. I will get it checked out. I really appreciate your help.

Not so quick -- it is true that even OTC drugs can affect your kidneys, but I looked up BUN/creatinine ratio on Wiki and it says it is usually used to detect gastrointestinal bleeding, which masquerades as kidney problems (it will feel like it, it will look like it, but it is actually due to gastrointestinal bleeding and thus low blood volume through the kidneys). So...now idk what to do about that. I would want to take slippery elm, and or mastic, and or aloe vera. I would want to determine what I am eating doing that to me (and it could be the number of supplements or taking them w/o food or some such). But...it may not be your kidneys per se.

Rydra

 

[rydra_wong]

As far as your SNP specific treatments go. How are you deciding what to do about the SNPs? Medical practitioner? Based on Yasko's protocols? Or is there more readily available information out there about nutrigenomics that I'm ignorant of? I'm in the process of getting my testing done.

Sorry I shouldnt have said I just reason out what to do. I should have said I use organic acids tests to guide me on what to do about my genes. I do not believe that genes are even remotely the whole story.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Fredd,

I appreciate your response. Since the level is so high, do you think that I still need to supplement with more B12?

Hi Nielk,

1600pg/ml or 2000pg/ml doesn't mean that a person has full sufficiency of both types of mb12 in the body and in the brain. As that includes 4 specific subsets of b12 deficiency it can't even assure any one of them is sufficient much less all 4. In an early trial I did with about 1000 people over several years, I developed the list of symtpoms that is on the basics thread. The symptoms do very well at predicting a response to mb12 in 2 hours or less. If a person has NONE of those symptoms or only a very mild few, a person will most likely have no reponse at all to mb12 in 2 hours. If they have 200 symptoms all over the list they will most likely have a knock 'em flat response starting in under 30 minutes. If they have a mix of some symptoms they are likely to have some noticable response within 1-2 hours. Eveybody who has a response within 2 hours will have some healing if they continue. Of those with symptoms with no reponse many of those will respond when some other critical item is added, Metafolin being the number one such and l-carnitine fumarate and SAM-e and others.

 

[hixxy]

What does elevated serum b12 and folate in the blood of someone with malabsorption and no supplementation actually mean?

Lack of methyl groups to methylate them?
Enzyme defects?
Likely MTHFR++ and/or MTRR++?

Is there a point at which on getting the methylation cycle going that this b12 and folate in your serum would decline? ie. The methylation cycle becomes able to use these inactive forms again. (From what I've been reading lately about people developing folate deficiencies, this is a yes for folate?)

hixxy

 

[Freddd]

What does elevated serum b12 and folate in the blood of someone with malabsorption and no supplementation actually mean?

Lack of methyl groups to methylate them?
Enzyme defects?
Likely MTHFR++ and/or MTRR++?

Is there a point at which on getting the methylation cycle going that this b12 and folate in your serum would decline? ie. The methylation cycle becomes able to use these inactive forms again. (From what I've been reading lately about people developing folate deficiencies, this is a yes for folate?)

hixxy

Hi Hixxy,

Elevated b12 in the blood of somebody deficienct or should be deficienct at a much higher than predictable level who is not supplementing is a sign of liver damage. The floate could accumulate from lack of utilization. That is said to happen with folic and/or unused folinic acid, thqat they accumulate until the block the methylfoalte.

The ability to use the inactive forms appears to be genetic for the most part. There is no reason to assume that will change.

 

[Deepak]

Dear Fredd,


My moms B12 without any supplementation is 930 with just 10 days of cobalamin 750 mg tablets . We are vegetarians and she is 68 yrs old. Her liver tests are all normal. Is this B12 level ok ??

With love,
Deepak