Are Infections Just a Trigger of ME/CFS, or an Ongoing Cause of ME/CFS?

Hutan

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There is the rumour of pregnancy possibly being protective. It's unlikely to wholly account for the decrease in onset in females in the period between adolescence and age 40+ (as the incidence seems to start dropping off before most women become pregnant). But it could still be a factor.
 

Hutan

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And yes @halcyon, there is the issue of much more even ratios in epidemics. Professor Lloyd commented that the closer you get to the disease onset (eg by watching what happens to all people turning up at a doctor's surgery with say EBV or Ross River Fever), the more the ratios of men to women are equal. Perhaps there are different sex ratios in different subsets or there are different rates of recovery.

And like so much about this illness, we should not accept the reported incidence graph without scepticism. There is so much else going on that might mean that ratios of those who have the illness are not the ratios in diagnosed ME/CFS patients. Perhaps if a man turns up complaining of fatigue and various other symptoms, he is more likely to be given a thorough workup and any known cause of his illness found. Whereas perhaps it is easier to put women in the somatising ME/CFS bucket before other possible causes are excluded.
 
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Eeyore

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I do believe there are subsets. Men and women probably distribute differently in the subsets - and while there may be some shared pathophysiology, there may be upstream differences in causation.

It might be selection bias Hutan, but actually I don't think that's the main thing. I think women get the disease more and are sicker from it on average. I'm a man and it hasn't meant that docs all believed me either.
 

halcyon

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Which might suggest that the various outbreaks are unrelated to ME/CFS? Assuming the general trend of female preponderance is correct.
Considering the disease seemed to be mostly defined by observing the outbreak cases, I kind of doubt it. Ramsay didn't seem to make any distinction between endemic and epidemic cases.
 

Marco

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Considering the disease seemed to be mostly defined by observing the outbreak cases, I kind of doubt it. Ramsay didn't seem to make any distinction between endemic and epidemic cases.

In the absence of identifying any infectious agent there's no definitive way of linking the Royal Free outbreak (whatever it was) with any of the other outbreaks. Ramsey ME then really only describes the Royal Free cases where the incidence, as discussed, is suggestive of an infectious onset contrasted with the vastly larger numbers of largely sporadic cases where there is an approx 2/3 female preponderance.

I don't see strong grounds for assuming they're the same thing.
 

halcyon

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Ramsey ME then really only describes the Royal Free cases where the incidence, as discussed, is suggestive of an infectious onset contrasted with the vastly larger numbers of largely sporadic cases where there is an approx 2/3 female preponderance.
I hardly see any reason to trust random incidence reporting of gender preponderance over a contained outbreak report. What is the source of this 2/3 number? Can we trust it? What criteria was used to diagnose the patients including in this figure? Can we really assume this number is accurate when north of 90% of patients are undiagnosed?

I don't see strong grounds for assuming they're the same thing.
o_O
The identical clinical picture seen between epidemic and endemic cases, with features so far unique only to this disease really makes you believe that 1950s ME has nothing to do with 2015 ME?
 

PDXhausted

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I am also keen on this idea of possible anti-endothelial or anti-neuronal antibodies and agree that ELISA may not be enough. My inner pathologist wonders why we couldn't study bound immunoglobulin in patient/controls in neuronal or vascular tissues, akin to how we diagnose anti-GBM in renal biopsies, with immunofluorescence amplification. It could be as simple as taking several skin punch biopsies. Thoughts?

@Jonathan Edwards did you happen to catch @Oredogg 's question in post #280? I'm curious if you had any thoughts on this.
 

Marco

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o_O
The identical clinical picture seen between epidemic and endemic cases, with features so far unique only to this disease really makes you believe that 1950s ME has nothing to do with 2015 ME?

Having read the original Royal Free papers I don't identify with the pattern at all despite meeting CCC.
 

Hutan

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This article 'Royal Free Epidemic of 1955. Was it really mass hysteria?' is an interesting read. Written by Goudsmit in 1987.

http://freespace.virgin.net/david.axford/articl02.htm

According to this, symptoms of the Royal Free epidemic included:
profound malaise
headaches
sore throat
nausea
depression and emotional lability
pains in neck, back, limbs and chest
dizziness and vertigo
cervical lymph nodes enlarged and tender
muscle spasms and tingling
Many of the sufferers remained ill for a year or more.
Frequent relapses, particularly after physical and/or mental exertion​

Most of that seems quite familiar.
 

Hutan

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Regarding the gender ratios in epidemics, I was a bit surprised to see that Goudsmit paper reported that 292 members of Royal Free Hospital staff were affected, 265 of whom were women (so only 27 men). 12 patients were affected (sex ratio not given). So, the Royal Free isn't an example of an epidemic with a 1:1 sex ratio. It isn't clear from that paper how many men and women were still sick in the long term though, which is what we really need to know. That many female nurses were affected may well be a result of them living together in the same hostel.


But further to my comment above about a combination of gender based prejudice and a conflation of MECFS with psychosomatic illness possibly affecting the sex ratios in diagnosed MECFS patients:
The paper mentions a number of other similar epidemics and notes that those with either equal numbers of men and women or a majority of men were not seen as psychosomatic.

In the same year, there were three similar outbreaks. The first outbreak occurred in Addington Hospital, Durban, at the same time as a poliomyelitis epidemic (Hill et al., 1959). Ninety-eight nurses were affected, of whom 11 were still unfit for duty three years later and 10 had to seek other occupations because of the residual effects of the illness. Like the outbreak at the Royal Free Hospital, this epidemic followed a number of cases in the general population living in the vicinity, and the reason for the increased virulence of the infecting organism was probably the semi-isolated nature of the hospital community and the close physical contact between the members of staff.

The second commenced in Dalston, Cumbria in February 1955 and lasted until July, affecting 233 members of the general population. The ratio of female to male sufferers in this outbreak was 1:1 (Wallis 1955).

The third outbreak occurred in a very large area of North West London, extending from East Ham in the North to Shepherds Bush in the South. It is not known exactly how many numbers were affected but one hospital alone admitted 53 cases between May 1955 and March 1958 (Ramsay 1957, 1986). It preceded the epidemic at the Royal Free Hospital, which served part of this area.

The two hospital outbreaks, but not the epidemic in Dalston, were regarded by McEvedy and Beard as examples of mass hysteria despite the fact that the symptoms in all four outbreaks were remarkably similar (McEvedy and Beard 1970b).
....


That the susceptibility of women in hospital outbreaks of M.E. may be linked to factors other than the psychological make-up of women is supported by data from outbreaks amongst the general population. Many of these outbreaks, such as the ones in Dalston (Wallis 1955) and Adelaide (Ramsay 1986, Pellew 1951) affected an equal number of men and women and several, including ones in Switzerland (Gsell 1949) and Berlin (Sumner 1956) only involved men. Interestingly enough, McEvedy and Beard (1970b) did not regard the latter, a relatively mild outbreak which affected only 7 soldiers, as mass hysteria.
....

McEvedy and Beard (1970a, 1973) based their <<mass hysteria>> hypothesis on the following arguments:

1. The vast majority of those affected were young women.

2. These women were socially segregated.

3. No organic cause could be found and the results of the laboratory tests were not significant.

4. Some of the symptoms could be explained in terms of anxiety and hyperventilation.

5. The illness failed to “propagate beyond the institutional population.”

6. The mean Neuroticism score of a small number of affected nurses was higher than that of a control group of unaffected nurses.

7. Those nurses who became ill had suffered from more illnesses requiring hospital admissions and had borne fewer children than the unaffected nurses.
....
Yes, all this was back in the 1970's and 80's. Hopefully things have changed a bit.
 

Jonathan Edwards

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Oredogg said:
I am also keen on this idea of possible anti-endothelial or anti-neuronal antibodies and agree that ELISA may not be enough. My inner pathologist wonders why we couldn't study bound immunoglobulin in patient/controls in neuronal or vascular tissues, akin to how we diagnose anti-GBM in renal biopsies, with immunofluorescence amplification. It could be as simple as taking several skin punch biopsies. Thoughts?

@Jonathan Edwards did you happen to catch @Oredogg 's question in post #280? I'm curious if you had any thoughts on this.

This question arose for me when presenting work on the role of immune complexes in RA at an American College of Rheumatology Meeting around 1997. A member of the audience asked me why I was not showing immunofluorescence pictures of immune complexes in synovial tissue - where were they? Fortunately I realised that I had an answer. In RA the story is that immune complexes bind individually to surface receptors on macrophages in a situation in which the tissue fluid is already awash with immunoglobulin. Complement is not fixed in this interaction. The implication is that there is no reason to think that even the monolayer of IgG stuck to receptors will represent a local concentration higher than in free tissue fluid. As soon as binding occurs the receptors internalise and the IgG is degraded.

The situation in lupus is completely different because here large immune complexes containing many Ig molecules each accumulate locally in glomerular basement membrane or skin basement membrane because the BM provides a trap. In anti-GBM disease you probably also get high local Ig levels because there are lots of identical extracellular epitopes to bind to in the BM. You are also likely to be able to tag the complexes with anti-complement reagents because being large the complexes will fix complement.

So I think there may be good reasons for not finding IgG in vivo in a form that one can detect by staining if the Ig is directed against a cell surface receptor. As soon as it binds it may be internalised and anyway the number of receptors may not be high enough to make the local concentration of Ig much higher than in nearby tissue fluid. I think you can detect complement fixation and maybe Ig at muscle end plates in myasthenia but I am not sure how easily and the receptor density may be high there.
 

Eeyore

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It is commonly said that in ME there is no end organ damage - no observable histological changes.

Is this true, and how much has it been investigated? Has anyone really tried to biopsy and study tissue from living or deceased ME patients to look for any signs of pathology?

I haven't really seen studies on this, although it seems like one of the first things you would look for in trying to understand the basis of disease.
 

Jonathan Edwards

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It is commonly said that in ME there is no end organ damage - no observable histological changes.

Is this true, and how much has it been investigated? Has anyone really tried to biopsy and study tissue from living or deceased ME patients to look for any signs of pathology?

I haven't really seen studies on this, although it seems like one of the first things you would look for in trying to understand the basis of disease.

There is a small series of autopsy reports, some indicating histological changes in structures such as dorsal root ganglia, but these may be very atypical cases. So far I do not think any consistent structural finding has been identified in living patients. There are some suggestions of structural change on MRI of brain but not something clearly reproducible yet.
 

Eeyore

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I read the study on changes in the right arcuate fasciculus. These are macrostructural changes - I was wondering if anything had been demonstrated on a micro level - if anyone had really looked at ME tissue samples.

Is this something that we really just haven't looked for yet to any substantial degree?
 

Jonathan Edwards

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I read the study on changes in the right arcuate fasciculus. These are macrostructural changes - I was wondering if anything had been demonstrated on a micro level - if anyone had really looked at ME tissue samples.

Is this something that we really just haven't looked for yet to any substantial degree?

That seems to be the case, although now that MRI is often even more sensitive than histology for microstructural change in terms of things like increase water content (in polymyalgia for instance), and isotope scans have been able to show local metabolic changes for even longer, and electrophysiology is probably more sensitive too the absence of finding anything on the wide variety of MRI and isotope scans and EMGs PWME will have had makes one feel that there isn'g going to be too much to find. Muscle biopsies have certainly been done, without finding myositis.
 

Hip

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5. The illness failed to “propagate beyond the institutional population.”

Wasn't the same thing the case with Incline Village, Lake Tahoe ME/CFS outbreak: it was endemic to Incline Village, but did not really spread further.

To me this is indication that although ME/CFS may be precipitated by a virus like enterovirus, it requires the presence of other factors that operate in tandem with the virus to create ME/CFS.


In the case of the Royal Free Hospital ME/CFS outbreak, Jonathan Edwards mentioned there was also a Legionella bacteria (legionnaire's disease) contamination of the hospital's water supply, so it is possible that ME/CFS resulted from a combined effect of the virus and the bacterium.

In the case of the Incline Village ME/CFS outbreak, which I believe did not spread further than this lake region, I wonder if the algae blooms (some of which are toxic) that often foul the waters of this lake might have some immunomodulatory properties, so that ME/CFS was caused by a combination of a virus and algae (or some bacterium perhaps) from the lake.



It would be interesting to examine all the ME/CFS outbreaks, and observe whether they remained localized, or whether they were able to spread more widely. If they all remained localized, this would be evidence for other factors operating in tandem with a virus to create ME/CFS.


I should add the following context: Dr Chia observed that corticosteroids inadvertently given during an acute enterovirus infection is a good recipe for triggering ME/CFS. This observation indicates that immunomodulatory factors present during the acute viral infection can play a role in determining whether the virus triggers ME/CFS.
 
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Marco

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This article 'Royal Free Epidemic of 1955. Was it really mass hysteria?' is an interesting read. Written by Goudsmit in 1987.

http://freespace.virgin.net/david.axford/articl02.htm

Most of that seems quite familiar.

What wasn't familiar to me from the papers I've read were the patients ending up in a hospital bed following acute onset for an extended period. Perhaps it was a precautionary/convenience action but I doubt many of us even with the 'flu from hell' onset ended up being hospitalised.
 

halcyon

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Wasn't the same thing the case with Incline Village, Lake Tahoe ME/CFS outbreak: it was endemic to Incline Village, but did not really spread further.
I don't recall the exact timelines, but there was spread to nearby Yerington, NV, Truckee, CA, and Placerville, CA.
 

Hip

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I don't recall the exact timelines, but there was spread to nearby Yerington, NV, Truckee, CA, and Placerville, CA.

Any idea if the ME/CFS outbreaks that appeared in these locations were just one or two cases, or were they a major outbreak like in Incline Village? Checking on the map, these places are fairly distant from Lake Tahoe (20 miles or further), so you would not expect them to be hit with algae toxins from the lake (unless people from those places were working near Lake Tahoe, and so were exposed to algae toxins that way).
 
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