Anybody tried C15:0 / fatty 15 / pentadecanoic acid ?

[cristi_b]

By pure chance I ran into a presentation about C15:0 and as I was looking for more information about it, I found this study dated 15 jun 2024, so quite recent: The Cellular Stability Hypothesis: Evidence of Ferroptosis and Accelerated Aging-Associated Diseases as Newly Identified Nutritional Pentadecanoic Acid (C15:0) Deficiency Syndrome

This hypothesis(C15:0 deficiency) resonated with me because:
- don't eat any of the foods that are high in C15:0(like dairy, butter etc) and so a deficiency is highly likely
- lots of my relatives had dementia diagnosis and I also have memory issues that could be indicative of a genetic issue but it's not any of the usual genes involved in dementia
- father has diabetes and I also have genes predisposing to diabetes
- I have high iron and ferritin levels measured in my blood in spite of high Hepcidin(which is supposed to block iron absorption) so I have increased risk for ferroptosis
- lots of unexplained inflammation in my body: rashes, sneezing, coughing but doctors cannot link them to a specific condition, my personal theory is very high cytokine levels
- doctors could not explain pain in my liver(more recently solved it with Zinc)
- doctors could not explain frequent extrasystoles(it's a sort of heart rhythm disorder, that went away for a period after I took DAOSiN)
- doctors could not explain inflammation in my digestive tract and my poor digestion

My hope is to solve some of my problems with this C15:0, like the inflammation ones or possibly even the more serious ones, but don't know yet if it's just hype or real science behind this compound.
From what I find there is a supplement called "Fatty 15", but I can't seem to find it in Europe. Alternative is to start eating butter but I have huge problems with digesting fats... so any information would be appreciated.

 

[cristi_b]

Other study that talks about how C15:0 lowers inflammatory markers: Efficacy of dietary odd-chain saturated fatty acid pentadecanoic acid parallels broad associated health benefits in humans: could it be essential?

Here, we show C15:0 as an active dietary fatty acid that attenuates inflammation, anemia, dyslipidemia, and fibrosis in vivo, potentially by binding to key metabolic regulators and repairing mitochondrial function.

 

[Mary]

I have huge problems with digesting fats.

You might be low in stomach acid. Years ago I had trouble with my gallbladder - heavy meals with fat felt like they just sat in my stomach, and I'd still be full the next day. My chiropractor who does muscle testing found that my gallbladder was subpar - I believe he said it was clogged with grit or something, and he gave me AF Betafood by Standard Process which helped a lot. I had to take it for several weeks.

But I also found out that my stomach acid was low. This is very common with ME/CFS and may have contributed to my gallbladder problems. I also ended up having to do a liver detox (I believe because of heavy exposure to chemical solvents at a job I had when quite young).

In any event, my digestion has been very good for many years now, and I still need to take betaine HCL. I can eat almost anything without any problem, except I have to watch calories and avoid sugar and white flour like the plague. And avoid most processed foods.

You might try the baking soda burp test:

The baking soda test​

The theory behind this at-home is that baking soda combined with stomach acid produces carbon dioxide (C02), which will cause you to burp. For the test, you’ll drink half a glass (4 ounces) of cold water combined with a quarter teaspoon of baking soda, on an empty stomach. Then time how long it takes you to burp. If it takes longer than three to five minutes, the theory goes, you don’t have enough stomach acid.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23392-hypochlorhydria

 

[linusbert]

- lots of unexplained inflammation in my body: rashes, sneezing, coughing but doctors cannot link them to a specific condition, my personal theory is very high cytokine levels
- doctors could not explain pain in my liver(more recently solved it with Zinc)
- doctors could not explain frequent extrasystoles(it's a sort of heart rhythm disorder, that went away for a period after I took DAOSiN)

what you describe could be potential histamin / allergy induced. external and internal sources like food are possible. but also chemicals, plastics etc.

You might be low in stomach acid.

very good point.
i used to notice that i can eat heavy hitters like eggs better with vinegard.

also when i had a stomach episode recently where i suffered especially after drinking water, i noticed that ~1g sodium ascorbate did make it immediately better. took away the fullness. maybe it was the sodium in the ascorbate.
it could be possible that taking plain salt could improve the situation as it provides chlorid for the stomach acid.

but there is also a link between vitamin C and gastritis.

 

[cristi_b]

what you describe could be potential histamin / allergy induced. external and internal sources like food are possible. but also chemicals, plastics etc.

Yes, off course! As I mentioned in a previous thread, Histamine is part of what is going on with me and some of the symptoms have gone down with the help of DAOSiN(pig enzyme that metabolizes Histamine), but in order to resolve the problem permanently, I'm compelled to ask "why does this happen?"(this has always worked for me, asking "why" leads to more discoveries and, potentially, the root cause of the issue). While asking "why do I have high histamine?" I have gone down several rabbit-holes: DAO genetic deficiency, severe inflammation markers(Calprotectin, Hepcidin) which made my think that I have high cytokines. Again asking why I have these high cytokines, I ended up at leaky gut and than at high levels of Lipopolysaccharide(LPS) in my bloodstream(which is what I was discussing in this other thread). Quite a few leaps during this process at getting to the root cause(s) but I'm confident, by watching my reactions to each supplement I try, that I'm on the right track.

Now what they advertise in the C15:0 materials is this supplement resolves inflammation by lowering the levels of some cytokines(as bacteria release LPS in the gut, the body produces several cytokines). What the company says is that C15:0 is better than Omega 3(I have had good results from Omega 3 for my issues).

very good point.
i used to notice that i can eat heavy hitters like eggs better with vinegard.

Vinegar used to make my stools more solid, so maybe I have a problem with acidity, than again vinegar also affects Histamine levels and disrupts some bacteria in the gut, so it's not a definitive explanation. I will have to do that test to try to get an answer.

but there is also a link between vitamin C and gastritis.

One of the revelations of past few weeks is I have to remove vitamin C completely from my diet in order to feel better. This included not only eliminating any form of supplement that has vitamin C(either acid or sodium form) but also foods that contain it. Best result is when I realised that salami contains Vitamin C as an anti-oxidant and eliminating it has made my stools better and my allergies to go down. Vitamin C seems to upset my gut or some bacteria in my gut, a very wierd and tricky conclusion to come to.

PS: Thanks all for trying to help. I'm still looking for information/testimonials on C15:0

 

[linusbert]

can i eat just butter to get the C15:0?

 

[cristi_b]

can i eat just butter to get the C15:0?

Unfortunately eating butter means ingesting bad fats also and that would negate some of the effects of the C15:0. I was looking at the lists of foods that contain it and found chia seeds also has a tiny amount, which would mean you have to eat a large quantity every day to get the same benefit and I'm not sure there isn't any downside in doing that.

 

[pamojja]

can i eat just butter to get the C15:0?

I consider animal fats in moderation not really bad fats. At least as bad as all the cheap omega-6 seed oils overconsumed with every convenience food. The problem is, of course, one can eat only a few grams of butter at a time, other foods are easier in larger amounts. From the German wikipedia:

Like most long-chain fatty acids with an odd carbon number, pentadecanoic acid occurs only rarely in nature and in lower concentration than fatty acids with an even carbon number.
It is found in cod liver oil at 0.1 %, in eel fat at 1.6 % and in beef and lamb at approx. 0.6 % of the total fatty acids[6].
They are also found in milk fat at 1.05% and in the body fat of ruminants at approx. 0.43%[7].
As the human body cannot produce this fatty acid itself, the proportion of pentadecanoic acid in blood lipids can be used to draw conclusions about the intake of milk and/or dairy products[11].

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

I probably get quite some from the organic grass fed mountain cheeses, I eat regularly.

Here a list of 100 foods highest in pentadecanoic acid: https://www.careomnia.com/nutrition-tool-nutrient?nutrientID=170#hid2300

 

[linusbert]

thanks for list, i like how oils and butter are on top , but nobody eats 100g of oils or butter.
then farther bellow cheddar where you can easily eat 100g.

Unfortunately eating butter means ingesting bad fats also

what bad fats? never recognized bad fats in animal food.

 

[Wayne]

what bad fats? never recognized bad fats in animal food.

Totally agree. I think animal fats and other saturated fats are mostly good for us if sourced properly, like organic or grass fed. Lots of good information on the Westin Price Foundation website. I think the "data" that shows correlation of saturated fats with various disease conditions never take into account the different quality of saturated fats that are consumed.

 

[cristi_b]

what bad fats? never recognized bad fats in animal food.

Dr. Venn-Watson was saying, in a youtube video, that butter contains C16 which is pro-inflammatory, but then again, she is the CEO of the company producing Fatty 15 so off course she would say the supplement is the only healthy choice.

I'm still trying to understand if there is solid science behind this, Dr. Venn-Watson appears to be involved in all studies related to the compound, that looks kind of bad, but some of the studies are published in Nature Scientific Reports(example1 example2) so there must be something worthwhile in there since they agreed to publish it.

 

[cristi_b]

I probably get quite some from the organic grass fed mountain cheeses, I eat regularly.

From a youtube video with Dr. Venn-Watson: dairy contains the triglyceride form of C15:0 which the body can't absorb properly. Since I did not find any 3rd party(not involved in fatty 15) stating this, I don't know what to think.

 

[cristi_b]

In an other interview the same Dr. Venn-Watson states that C15:0 (from fatty 15 supplement) has benefits for longevity: interview and the research paper she mentions in the interview.

C15:0 activates AMPK and inhibits mTOR, both of which are core components of the human longevity pathway

This longevity pathway seems to be the same as the one involved in the newly discovered Interleukin-11

 

[linusbert]

yea i do not trust this. if natural food somehow is unhealthy but the synthetic supplement is the only choice, something definitely smells fishy.

i heard in other videos (not from him) that saturated fats , like butter and eggs, tend to be pro inflammatory if already insulin resistence or silent inflammation is present. i think that was from dr. ekberg.

but we must compare the alternatives, rancid plant oils with very bad omega 6 : 3 ratio or highly industrialized processed "vegan butter" aka margherine over butter? na i take the butter any day as its the least processed fat of those.
i do not know how you can get natural plant fats without much processing? avocados? nuts probably.
also processing of oils always comes with chemicals and solvents. no matter how much they promise to clean those, they are always present.
i think some oils like good olive oil can also be pressed mechanical and without solvents? not sure

 

[pamojja]

Dr. Venn-Watson: dairy contains the triglyceride form of C15:0 which the body can't absorb properly. Since I did not find any 3rd party(not involved in fatty 15) stating this, I don't know what to think

As the human body cannot produce this fatty acid itself, the proportion of pentadecanoic acid in blood lipids can be used to draw conclusions about the intake of milk and/or dairy products[11].

Here the reference from German wikipedia, which contradicts Dr. Venn-Watson. Pentadecanoic acid from dairy products is proportionally absorbed in humans: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9925119/

thanks for list, i like how oils and butter are on top , but nobody eats 100g of oils or butter.

Take note, how really one seed-oil is high pentadecanoic acid only: High Oleic, 70% & Over, Sunflower Oil

Dr. Venn-Watson was saying, in a youtube video, that butter contains C16 which is pro-inflammatory, but then again, she is the CEO of the company producing Fatty 15 so off course she would say the supplement is the only healthy choice.

Omega-6 seed oils contain lots of linoleic acid, which in low quantity would be an essential nutrient to allow an inflammatory response. Omege-3 is equally essential in resolving inflammation.

Part of this astounding increase of seed-oils is because they are omnipresent in every industrially produced convenience product. Just as sugar, where there the problem gets compounded. The higher sugar intake itself causes more glycation, especially in the vessel walls, the higher linoleic acid intakes provide for an inflammatory response to get rid of. But inflammation resolving omega-3 is in short supply. The perfect recipe for chronic inflammation.

Historically, we can see that seed oil use increased from approximately 2 grams per day in 1865, to 5 grams per day in 1909, to 18 grams a day in 1999. As of 2008, the average consumption was 29 grams a day. In terms of percentages, seed oils accounted for approximately 1/100th of total calories in 1865 and increased to more than 1/4th of total calories by 2010 — a 25-fold increase!

A list, from where most of the 29 g/d of omega-6 proinflammatory linoleic acid is coming from, today.

The proinflammatory C16 fraction on the other hand, seems to be even endogenously produced, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitic_acid#

Palmitic acid is the first fatty acid produced during fatty acid synthesis and is the precursor to longer fatty acids. As a consequence, palmitic acid is a major body component of animals. In humans, one analysis found it to make up 21–30% (molar) of human depot fat,[18] and it is a major, but highly variable, lipid component of human breast milk.[19]

 

[cristi_b]

Take note, how really one seed-oil is high pentadecanoic acid only: High Oleic, 70% & Over, Sunflower Oil

100g of High Oleic Sunflower oil has 800mg. If the proposed dose of daily C15:0 is 100mg that would equate to 12.5 g of Sunflower oil. As a quantity that seems doable to me, but I still need to figure out how bad are the rest of Saturated Fats it contains:

Behenic Acid (22:0)	125 mg
Myristic Acid (14:0)	7.1 mg
Palmitic Acid (16:0)	463 mg
Pentadecanoic Acid (15:0)	100 mg
Stearic Acid (18:0)	538 mg

 

[linusbert]

saturated fats arent bad at all, why would you believe that?

but the high oleic sunflower oil is super artificial, i do not like it. probably gmo and other industrial garbage too. they optimized it for a few parameters they think to be beneficial today, but what else got worse, we do not know (yet), but sure will in 30 years. like with every industrial produced garbage food they came up with.

you can get roughly 10-20mg of c15:0 from 4 eggs. 15-30 from 6. only the eggyolk itself is relevant. so it can also be 4-6 egg yolks.

For 100 grams of butter: 800 mg to 1600 mg of C15:0 says chatgpt.
that means a reasonable size of 10-20g has 100-200mg. why not go with organic grass fed pasture raised butter?

you could also go with gee,
"For 100 grams of ghee: 1000 mg to 2000 mg of C15:0."


i dont get why they try to mix garbage in a laboratory which always comes out with tons more cons than pros in the long run.
dont they know that God invented the cow (and goat and sheep) eons ago which their milk has pretty good fat composition? cows like to stand on a big pasture and munch grass all day, safe and protected. its symbiotic relationship. love the cow and the cow loves you. just dont do that industrialized mass garbage, thats not love for cow. thats abuse and a abomination of Gods creation.

 

[cristi_b]

saturated fats arent bad at all, why would you believe that?

My problem with fats is more general as my body can't tolerate them well, they make my symptoms worse( diarrhea, gas, pains) and that is the reason I mostly(99%) eat boiled meat, so not fried in oils or grilled. Haven't payed much attention which fats create the worst symptoms, but "trans" and "saturated" are always cited as bad for health.

but the high oleic sunflower oil is super artificial, i do not like it. probably gmo and other industrial garbage too.

I try to not have preconceptions like that, "artificial is always bad", "natural is always good", I'll just have to try and see which variant my body can tolerate. The problem with C15:0 foods is the benefits will be mixed with a lot of bad symptoms for me because of the other "bad" fats and I will not be able to discern if it helps me. It could even be that my body can't tolerate the C15:0 but I won't be able to recognize that as foods contain a lot of stuff.

I would just buy the supplement, but it's not available in stores in the EU: from what I find Fatty15 seems to be the only available supplement which has this "newly discovered essential fatty acid". On the fatty15 website they seem to accept delivery to my country, but there will be additional costs related to shipping and import fees. In the EU there are additional import fees for goods exceeding 150euros, this supplement seems to be around that figure. I would buy the 30 day supply, to try to avoid the 150euro mark, but it's only offered with a subscription and I just wanted to try it to see if it helps me. Quite a complicated decision.

 

[linusbert]

My problem with fats is more general as my body can't tolerate them well, they make my symptoms worse( diarrhea, gas, pains) and that is the reason I mostly(99%) eat boiled meat, so not fried in oils or grilled. Haven't payed much attention which fats create the worst symptoms, but "trans" and "saturated" are always cited as bad for health.

same problem, i barely eat fats , no oils at all, the fats that come with cheese and eggs are the only fats i eat.
i try another run with butter. i noticed that i tolerate different butter differently well from gut perspective.

natural isnt always good, but artificial is always bad. the question is just how bad and when.

but for us sick folks who try to survive to the next day, sometimes compromises must be made.
try it out, if it helps you, its good for you.
and please share results.

 

[cristi_b]

same problem, i barely eat fats , no oils at all, the fats that come with cheese and eggs are the only fats i eat.
i try another run with butter. i noticed that i tolerate different butter differently well from gut perspective.

My gut doesn't like fats, especially if I'm in a relaxed state(lower heart rate, in the evening or if I immediately sit in bed). On the other hand I will experience less symptoms if I manage to find a way to cause sympathetic activation, either physical activity or some other way to make my heart rate more alert: stress, anger etc.

Because of my problems with digestion I have tried butter in the morning, when my heart rate is higher with less HRV(more sympathetic activation) and to my surprise I've managed to pull through 4 days of 25g / day(that's 200mg of C15:0). I've had a few symptoms like slight pain, for which I took Zinc as this helped in the past, gas which I ignore and loose stool. In fact I was surprised I did not go into my usual hell because of fats, but then I tracked my heart rate and I realized that the NAC I was taking during these days was keeping me in sympathetic activation almost all day. One thing I noticed is my allergies are more pronounced, in the beginning I did not know if it was an effect of the continuous NAC which I was already taking for some time, or the butter:
- day 1: considerable throat inflammation, secretions and coughing immediately after eating butter
- day 2: less throat inflammation but I started sneezing after eating butter
- day 3: no throat inflammation but continued sneezing throughout the day, nose dripping
- day 4: continued sneezing in spite of stopping NAC(I wanted to see if it was because of it)

Butter causing allergy flareup is a weird one, I will have to add it to the list of things that cause my allergies to go in over drive: Collagen, beta carotene, vitamin C, vitamin K, some cofactors of vitamin D(since vitamin D no longer causes problems as explained here), some probiotics and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

As for good things I noticed is: slightly better eyesight and slightly better concentration. Might be the C15:0 in the butter or a coincidence, it's hard to discern. No other improvements on inflammation as I'd hopped.

Next I will have 1-2 days of pause and than try High Oleic Sunflower oil >70% as I managed to find some in my country after going to several supermarkets. It will be interesting to see if the effect on eyesight and concentration will be similar.