Anybody tried C15:0 / fatty 15 / pentadecanoic acid ?

[linusbert]

cristi_b i am really excited how your trial with the sunflower oil works out.

in regards of what you wrote i had a few thoughts:

- the bad effects of general all health, not just butter from your digestion could be due to too less cholin and other fats required to process fat. egg yolks come with plenty of those good fats.
- have you ever tried TUDCA with your fat rich meals? some people describe this doing wonders for them. you can find those on iherb, like bodybio tudca and others.

- but your allergies flamming up is a sure sign to stop. i do get this from almost any oil. coconut oil, olive oil, for example, i can do 1 day.. maybe 2 but then i notice it. then i will stop. i even get the increase in allergies from simply rubbing it on my skin without eating it.

- you could try ghee, which is butter but cooked so long that essential everything else besides the fat is gone. so if proteins or a diary allergy is causing you problems that might help. ghee even has more c15:0 than butter per 100g. but i am struggling to find ghee in germany which isnt rancid. i open the bottles and i immediately realize by the smell that i never put this into or near my body. even amazon reviews are constantly complaining about this.

also in regards of fat trials, 25g is a huge load for someone who isnt used to fat. i'd rather go with 1g and up every few days.

there is this effect for me that if i stop a food and reintroduce it months later, i suddenly react allergic to it, where as i wasnt before. i always used to eat lots of butter on my bread and never had a problem. then i stopped it, now minor amounts cause me all kinds of problems.
but sometimes after a week the body seams to adapt again and i do not feel allergic symptoms. (which doesnt mean it wouldnt contribute to silent inflammation, could still be bad ... or not who knows).

As for good things I noticed is: slightly better eyesight and slightly better concentration. Might be the C15:0 in the butter or a coincidence, it's hard to discern. No other improvements on inflammation as I'd hopped.

egg yolks should give you the same benefits.

 

[cristi_b]

- the bad effects of general all health, not just butter from your digestion could be due to too less cholin and other fats required to process fat. egg yolks come with plenty of those good fats.

I'm not sure choline has anything to do with it. After numerous trial and errors I realized that liquid stools come after I eat fats, these stools are also quite acidic, so much so that I had to wash immediately after going to the toilet. And that's not because of the number of stools(which could be even 10 per day) but because of the acidity which caused instant inflammation from the very 1st stool(sorry for so many unwanted details but I have to explain why I reached the conclusions that I did). After much searching and reading I understood that the acidity I was experiencing was because of bile acids, my body (used to) produce tons of it when I ate fats. One solution was to completely avoid fats, starve my body of any fat it could use to produce bile acids. And this worked, but it's not easy to do, you can't always control how much fat is in a meal. An other solution I found is CHITOSAN: this compound sequesters bile acids and I would get instant relief from the diarrhea. The trouble with it is: it blocks absorption of fat soluble vitamins, so it is not ideal, but it's how I've survived for some years as I did not have any other solution.

- have you ever tried TUDCA with your fat rich meals? some people describe this doing wonders for them. you can find those on iherb, like bodybio tudca and others.

From what I read TUDCA increases bile acid production and, as I explained above, my body produces enough as it is.

- but your allergies flamming up is a sure sign to stop. i do get this from almost any oil. coconut oil, olive oil, for example, i can do 1 day.. maybe 2 but then i notice it. then i will stop. i even get the increase in allergies from simply rubbing it on my skin without eating it.

For me it was what I ate. My current hypothesis is: the body was taking the fats and producing bile acids as it was trying to eliminate bad microbes from the gut. Bile acids are anti-microbial and are involved in keeping the microbiome under control. The more microbes I've tried to eliminate from my gut, the better I've felt overall: candida, e coli, p mirabilis, c dificile and this was in spite of negative results from stool tests(I don't trust positive/negative results anyways, these are only good to differentiate big infections and not a disbiosis/overgrowth).

- you could try ghee, which is butter but cooked so long that essential everything else besides the fat is gone. so if proteins or a diary allergy is causing you problems that might help. ghee even has more c15:0 than butter per 100g. but i am struggling to find ghee in germany which isnt rancid. i open the bottles and i immediately realize by the smell that i never put this into or near my body. even amazon reviews are constantly complaining about this.

Though part of the EU, my country is even worse in healthy choices. I struggled to find high oleic sunflower oil, ghee is nowhere to be found, probably I would have to order from amazon or some other international supplier.

but sometimes after a week the body seams to adapt again and i do not feel allergic symptoms. (which doesnt mean it wouldnt contribute to silent inflammation, could still be bad ... or not who knows).

As outlined in this thread, my theory is: allergies are related to elevated LPS levels in the bloodstream. I'm not sure how butter fits in all of this, maybe it gives a competitive edge for a type of bacteria and kills others releasing LPS(just a thought) or maybe the other fats in the butter are pro-inflammatory, it's difficult to tell.

PS: Just realized that sunflower oil contains lecithin which brakes up to choline and could lead to TMAO. I hope I will not have more gas because of it.

 

[linusbert]

From what I read TUDCA increases bile acid production and, as I explained above, my body produces enough as it is.

does your body produce too much bile .. or too less neutralizing alkalines.

but if its too much bile, TUDCA might help anyways, it could be a sludge thing or flow not working properly. i definitely would try TUDCA at least once.
if gallbladder flow is not good (for whatever reasons) it could eject too much or too less bile acid.

PS: Just realized that sunflower oil contains lecithin which brakes up to choline and could lead to TMAO. I hope I will not have more gas because of it.

forget the TMAO hypothesis. in my opinion its crap.
because the results where basically relevant when multiple grams of a artificial thing where eaten like l-carnitine or cholin. its not relevant with minor doses. its also not relevant for natural things like cholin from eggs. so its again another artificial issue.

As outlined in this thread, my theory is: allergies are related to elevated LPS levels in the bloodstream. I'm not sure how butter fits in all of this, maybe it gives a competitive edge for a type of bacteria and kills others releasing LPS(just a thought) or maybe the other fats in the butter are pro-inflammatory, it's difficult to tell.

i do get this also from not eating it, like rubbing on skin or doing mouth wash and spitting it out. maybe its for you too?

 

[cristi_b]

does your body produce too much bile .. or too less neutralizing alkalines.

but if its too much bile, TUDCA might help anyways, it could be a sludge thing or flow not working properly. i definitely would try TUDCA at least once.
if gallbladder flow is not good (for whatever reasons) it could eject too much or too less bile acid.

I have tried to find more information regarding TUDCA and it seems I was wrong: it does not simply increase bile acid production but protects bile acid homeostasis(ref):

These results show that TUDCA protects bile acid homeostasis under inflammatory conditions and suppresses CD-like ileitis. Together with previous observations showing similar efficacy in experimental colitis, we conclude that TUDCA could be a promising therapeutic agent for inflammatory bowel disease, warranting a clinical trial.

However in a test with people suffering from MS, side effects included pain and diarrhea(ref) which could be a problem for me:

Gastrointestinal (GI)-related AEs (including nausea/vomiting, diarrhea, indigestion/reflux, abdominal pain/cramps, and cholangitis) were the majority of the AEs in the TUDCA group

I'll think about it, I can't promise I will try TUDCA from the information I found about it.

forget the TMAO hypothesis. in my opinion its crap.
because the results where basically relevant when multiple grams of a artificial thing where eaten like l-carnitine or cholin. its not relevant with minor doses. its also not relevant for natural things like cholin from eggs. so its again another artificial issue.

I have tried L-Carnitine in the past in the form of Carnitine Tartrate. The result was lots of gas/flatulence(which did not go away so easily) and looser stools. One good effect was that my skin did not look so pale anymore, which people who knew me noticed right away. Other good effects was when I combined L-Carnitine with physical activity(like bicycling) when I noticed: better eyesight, expanded visual field and better touch sensitivity(this I'm quoting from the logs I keep). I could not keep it up because of the aforementioned gas, which at that time I attributed to bacteria.

i do get this also from not eating it, like rubbing on skin or doing mouth wash and spitting it out. maybe its for you too?

Never really tried it, when I will start with the sunflower oil I will do some tests and let you know. Right now I have to delay testing the sunflower oil as I ran into digestion problems because I took a higher dose of Biotin with Magnesium Citrate and Hidroxo B12. I was trying to test the PCC enzyme and my gut is acting up. Propionyl-CoA carboxylase (PCC) is a biotin-dependent enzyme that I found to be related to L-Carnitine, fats and remarkably, the newly discovered C15:0. I'm trying to figure out if I have a problem with this enzyme.

 

[linusbert]

I have tried L-Carnitine in the past in the form of Carnitine Tartrate. The result was lots of gas/flatulence

thats a known issue, i got this too. you might try other forms like l-carnitine-fumarate , or acteyl-carnitine. both forms can have completely different effects, one makes worse, one better.
you could also inject it in muscle or in subcutaneous fat. looks like it does a great deal for you, worth a shot.

Propionyl-CoA carboxylase (PCC) is a biotin-dependent enzyme that I found to be related to L-Carnitine, fats and remarkably, the newly discovered C15:0.

that sounds interesting.

However in a test with people suffering from MS, side effects included pain and diarrhea(ref) which could be a problem for me:

there is any stuff which does anything to a number of chronic sick people. i am pretty fast with diarrhea, i didnt get any from TUDCA.
in your case it could actually stabilize.
btw what stabilizies gut for me , is meat.

 

[cristi_b]

thats a known issue, i got this too. you might try other forms like l-carnitine-fumarate , or acteyl-carnitine. both forms can have completely different effects, one makes worse, one better.

I've checked my logs(journals), I've tried ALCAR(acetyl form of carnitine) and did not notice considerable gas. I presume the fumarate is the one that is worse than the Tartrate form, right?

that sounds interesting.

Yes, I found several information that are related:

1) PCC enzyme Deficiency(that leads to propionic acidemia): a rare autosomal recessive metabolic disorder is characterized by the inability to properly metabolize certain amino acids and odd-chain fatty acids. This includes C15:0. People with propionic acidemia are said to have high levels of C15:0 in their blood and, I presume, supplementation is not beneficial because it cannot be metabolized.

2) L-Carnitine helps people with propionic acidemia as it bypasses the PCC enzyme.

3) There are a number of bacteria that can produce excess propionic acid in the gut. This can pose 2 problems: inflammation of the gut(both propionic acid and sodium propionate, in excessive quantities, cause inflammation) and the large quantity can exceed the capacity of the PCC enzyme. I presume(though I don't have a study to prove it) that in this case also the C15:0 will accumulate and not be metabolized. Side note: inulin can raise propionic acid in the gut(ref).

This information are from my own searches and discussions with perplexity AI. Feel free to correct it if I understood something wrong.

there is any stuff which does anything to a number of chronic sick people. i am pretty fast with diarrhea, i didnt get any from TUDCA.
in your case it could actually stabilize.
btw what stabilizies gut for me , is meat.

Yes I know about meat, I eat meat for each meal. I've survived for years on boiled meat and boiled rice as my gut did not accept anything else. For a period I've tried the "caveman" diet(just meat). Recently I've been able to expand the variety of foods, but I can't (yet) eat like a normal person. Hopefully, if I find the root cause of all this, I will finally be normal.

 

[linusbert]

. I presume the fumarate is the one that is worse than the Tartrate form, right?

actually i dislike the tartrate form because the tartrate doesnt add anything beneficial.
the carnitine fumerate provides fumarate, which is used in the citrate cycle..
tartrat and fumarate both do not provide a acetyl group, therefore they take up acetyl groups and act as buffer. the acteylcarnitine provides a acetylgroup.
that little difference can make it beneficial or not depending on your metabolism. if you got too much acetyl groups i would take the fumarate form or tartrate.

 

[cristi_b]

i do get this also from not eating it, like rubbing on skin or doing mouth wash and spitting it out. maybe its for you too?

Have you had any genetic testing for Biotin related defects? From what I read the PCC enzyme is present in a lot of tissues, perplexity says it can cause problems in the skin also. As I have the Nebula Genetics result, I have checked and double checked the PCCA and PCCB genes, which are related to PCC deficiency, there doesn't seem to be anything there. I also don't remember getting any effect from oil on my skin (I will do some tests once I begin to try the sunflower oil). In your case it might be worth checking, I was mainly interested in the PCC enzyme because of propionate-producing bacteria in the gut and, maybe, a biotin deficiency.

Anyway, PCC enzyme seems really important when it comes to C15:0, people who have PCC deficiency already have high levels of circulating C15:0 and, I suspect, an overwhelmed PCC enzyme(from gut bacteria) would produce the same result. No use trying such an expensive supplement if the metabolism of C15:0 is screwed up.

 

[linusbert]

Have you had any genetic testing for Biotin related defects? From what I read the PCC enzyme is present in a lot of tissues, perplexity says it can cause problems in the skin also. As I have the Nebula Genetics result, I have checked and double checked the PCCA and PCCB genes, which are related to PCC deficiency, there doesn't seem to be anything there. I also don't remember getting any effect from oil on my skin (I will do some tests once I begin to try the sunflower oil). In your case it might be worth checking, I was mainly interested in the PCC enzyme because of propionate-producing bacteria in the gut and, maybe, a biotin deficiency.

Anyway, PCC enzyme seems really important when it comes to C15:0, people who have PCC deficiency already have high levels of circulating C15:0 and, I suspect, an overwhelmed PCC enzyme(from gut bacteria) would produce the same result. No use trying such an expensive supplement if the metabolism of C15:0 is screwed up.

thanks, that sounds reasonable, will look about the biotin axis again.
my nebula doesnt show any significant problems, not in biotin too as far as i remember.