Anxiety, Ammonia, and the NMDA Receptor

[xjhuez]

Yup. My wife can consume it without any issue, as can most people. I'm not an anti-MSG crusader, I'm just saying it seriously messes me up, and that's not guesswork.

 

[Jarod]

xjhuez or anybody

How does one get access to the text for the whole studies you linked on BCAA's and ammonia? Looks like I just get the abstract.

probably hurt my head trying to read them, but it would be nice to know how to see the whole text.

thx

 

[xjhuez]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0885450586900952

pdf link at the top

The other isn't available free, from what I can see.

 

[triffid113]

I went to a restaurant that was known to serve food high in MSG (not to me tho) and I did not know I was sensitive AND it was during PMS (when I was sensitive). I thought I was going to die...for a full 24 hours I could not untense my muscles AT ALL. I could not stop shaking. I could not relax in any way. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Nothing would give me the slightest relief.

 

[Dufresne]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8845943

 

[end]

@Hip mentioned Proteus mirabilis as an ammonia producer @brenda mentioned Lyme as an ammonia producer

My question is, are there many other PATHOGENS that produce ammonia??


I was put on ciprofloxacin doxycycline clarithromycin for 12wks, 6wks in I developed a massive multi systemic yeast type group of infections(athletes foot, thrush, jock itch)which resulted in SEVERE insomnia/tired but wired feelings and SWEAT smelling strongly of AMMONIA ever since! with insomnia ever since and a chronic low grade candida issue ever since

Do yeasts produce ammonia??

Do Enterovirus's produce ammonia??

 

[dannybex]

I actually don't take yucca with meals anymore. I only take one capsule at nighttime right before bedtime. It seriously is a miracle drug for me. I used to have severe back pain upon waking from all the ammonia activation along my spine during the night and that has completely gone away.

In order for me to get a good night's rest without waking up in the middle of the night hungry, I have to eat larger meals in the evening, and I eat almost nothing in the morning.

The digestive process is inherently parasympathetic as is the sleep process, and your body does a lot of rebuilding while you sleep. It makes logical sense that those with a faster metabolism especially at nighttime would require extra nutrients for the rebuilding/rejuvenation process. Bodybuilders often consume slow digesting proteins right before bed to keep their body nourished while they sleep. A steady supply of amino acids at night helping rebuild muscle tissue also assists in the detoxification process. I go for a high protein meal before bed, in conjunction with higher fiber to help soak up toxins during sleep. The combo works really well for me being a strong sympathetic dominant.

I know this is an old post, but very interesting. I always thought that protein keeps one alert and awake, and can stimulate cortisol release, but you're saying that protein -- high protein at that -- along with yucca -- actually helped you sleep better? Since this was posted more than a year ago, I'm wondering if you're still on the high-protein before bed routine?

 

[Gestalt]

@Gestalt -- I was wondering if you've ever tried butyrate supplements. I have high ammonia, and have read that in addition to the benefits you noted above, it also lowers ammonia levels.

I have not, but taking Resistant Starch creates a butyrate factory in your gut. Much better. And after I started taking RS I stopped taking yucca, because I didn't need it anymore. RS got my ammonia issue under control.

Read the large section written by Vegas here for more info: http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/07/23/anxiety-ammonia-the-nmda-receptor/

I know this is an old post, but very interesting. I always thought that protein keeps one alert and awake, and can stimulate cortisol release, but you're saying that protein -- high protein at that -- along with yucca -- actually helped you sleep better? Since this was posted more than a year ago, I'm wondering if you're still on the high-protein before bed routine?

Starvation is what triggers cortisol release the most. Slow digesting carbs, with slow digesting fat and slow digesting protein is ideal. The carbs will blunt cortisol by releasing insulin.

The studies that show protein to increase cortisol are very questionable, usually done from fasted or stressed states, or overly skewed macronutrient ratios.

On the whole meals reduce cortisol rather than raise it. I eat high-protein relative to most people before bed, but it's only 30-35 grams.

 

[dannybex]

I have not, but taking Resistant Starch creates a butyrate factory in your gut. Much better. And after I started taking RS I stopped taking yucca, because I didn't need it anymore. RS got my ammonia issue under control.


Read the large section written by Vegas here for more info: http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/07/23/anxiety-ammonia-the-nmda-receptor/

Thanks Gestalt. VERY interesting. I've been doing some of the things Vegas advises against -- like taking multiple forms of digestive enzymes (that basically break down everything) -- and have just gotten worse during the last 4-5 years doing so.

Starvation is what triggers cortisol release the most. Slow digesting carbs, with slow digesting fat and slow digesting protein is ideal. The carbs will blunt cortisol by releasing insulin.


The studies that show protein to increase cortisol are very questionable, usually done from fasted or stressed states, or overly skewed macronutrient ratios.


On the whole meals reduce cortisol rather than raise it. I eat high-protein relative to most people before bed, but it's only 30-35 grams.

Re "Starvation": I guess I've been in that mode in one respect or another for at least 5 years. The NutrEval test from late 2010 showed, according to Rich, that I was breaking down my own muscles for fuel. Plus, a partial block in my kreb's cycle showed that both carbs and fats weren't being used properly either. I look like a concentration camp survivor…at least my arms, and especially my legs and feet. 5 years ago there were some days I could walk 6 blocks a day, or sometimes even a mile. Today I use a wheelchair just to get my mail, and an electric cart at the grocery store.

I have a very difficult time digesting or metabolizing fats -- so have been eating low fat for years too -- which no doubt compounds the problem (not enough calories), but after adding taurine, I think that may be starting to change. I get an awful, awful 'restless leg' situation if I eat even tiny amounts of saturated fats…totally keeps me from sleeping.

Triglycerides and 'bad' cholesterol were too high, and the 'good' too low -- made worse no doubt from eating 'too many' carbs (usually white or brown rice, but also dried fruits, and occasionally some whole sugar in tiny amounts)…but that was the only thing I could tolerate besides salmon, chicken breast and veggies.

But starting the methylation protocol was a disaster -- left me w/extreme high anxiety that lasted for almost a year, then calmed down a bit. I did have my genetics test done via Yasko, and have some of the polymorphisms, like the CBS A360A, etc., but at least not the 699t. Later in 2011 I was able to do some methylb12 shots from time to time, and take small amounts of metafolin, and didn't realize until about a week ago, that although the b12 revved me up too much, perhaps the metafolin was helping. I just restarted that at a tiny dose, along with ad-b12.

Regarding the resistant starch: Do you know if the Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch contains any solanine? I'm not positive, but have a feeling that I react to nightshades. On the flip side, the 'plantain flour' -- does that have a banana like taste? Couldn't stand bananas when I was a kid, but I suppose I could hold my nose and go from there.

I'm sorry to ramble on and on. I just really appreciate this info, and unfortunately have to ask as many questions as possible since I can't get to a decent doctor often enough (I'm on Medicaid, which equals "no help"), and when I do, he/she is often making their best guess.

Any other suggestions you or anyone else (@Vegas ?) might have would be very much appreciated.

 

[Gestalt]

Regarding the resistant starch: Do you know if the Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch contains any solanine? I'm not positive, but have a feeling that I react to nightshades. On the flip side, the 'plantain flour' -- does that have a banana like taste? Couldn't stand bananas when I was a kid, but I suppose I could hold my nose and go from there.

I'm sorry to ramble on and on. I just really appreciate this info, and unfortunately have to ask as many questions as possible since I can't get to a decent doctor often enough, and when I do, he/she is often making their best guess.

Any other suggestions you or anyone else (@Vegas ?) might have would be very much appreciated.

Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch does not contain Solanine. It has been specially processed with cold water to remove it. The plantain flour is gross imo, I had to stop taking it because it's so yucky. Holding your nose might work. I'm sure it's still good.

Resistant Starch solves numerous problems. First it helps supply butyrate to your stomach cells which improves stomach acid output which improves digestion of fat and proteins. Prior to RS i had a much more difficult time digesting proteins and fats. Lack of stomach acid due to lack of butyrate is the main reason I suspect. This then will spare your muscle tissue so your body won't need to break them down to get amino acids for more critical processes. It can now actually get the amino acids it needs from food. This is huge!

RS also feeds bacteria which then create their own enzymes which help breakdown food for you as well. Those enzymes in supplements are mostly made by bacteria in a lab, why not just take the bacteria/feed them and make an enzyme factory in your gut? The supplements become unnecessary then.

The bacteria also produce butyrate which tightens up and intestinal cell junctions preventing those undigested protein molecules from your prior lack of stomach acid and lack of digesting enzymes, from leaking into your body, which then had to mount an immune system response and develop an "allergy" to nearly everything you ate.

Bottom line. RS gives you better digestion through more stomach acid and churning out more digestive enzymes. It also repairs your gut lining preventing over-immune system activation.

Also RS boosts methylation because it feeds bifido which do inter-conversion between various forms of folates so your genetic results from yasko become kind of meaningless. The bifido also produce b and k vitamins for you to boot.

 

[dannybex]

@Gestalt Thanks so much. That IS huge if it indeed can do all you say -- sounds like a miracle! I'm going to order some of that potato starch ASAP. And maybe get some bifido bacteria.

 

[Gestalt]

Do yeasts produce ammonia??

I suffered from extreme nervous system activation from ammonia. Yucca solved this pretty quick by mopping up ammonia in the gut. A year after I figured out that the root of all this excess ammonia was likely a very large fungal Candida infection. Wiping out Candida using Candex but more specifically Resistant Starch has virtually eliminated the excess ammonia and I have no need for yucca anymore.

Gut dysbiosis in general will cause issues with ammonia. A lot of inter-linked factors. Check out several of Vegas's posts here for a good explanation: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...fate-and-ammonia-questions.27211/#post-424470

 

[end]

I suffered from extreme nervous system activation from ammonia. Yucca solved this pretty quick by mopping up ammonia in the gut. A year after I figured out that the root of all this excess ammonia was likely a very large fungal Candida infection. Wiping out Candida using Candex but more specifically Resistant Starch has virtually eliminated the excess ammonia and I have no need for yucca anymore.

Gut dysbiosis in general will cause issues with ammonia. A lot of inter-linked factors. Check out several of Vegas's posts here for a good explanation: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...fate-and-ammonia-questions.27211/#post-424470

@Gestalt - thank you so much!

That is EXACTERLY how it feels - 'extreme nervous system activation'

I have gone into the local Hardware department and opened a bottle of ammonia, and it smelled EXACTERLY like my sweat drenched shirt/clothing!

I have used Dr Usman's 'Biofilm Defence' with limited results(1cap 3x a day) with NAC(1cap 3x a day)however there was a slight* improvement in this 'nervousness' - my Doctor saw my Strongly Positive H2S result and my ecology results are more or less negative, he theorised 'Biofilm'

Tried Yucca recently at bed time for a few nights which helped as I noticed when waking up in the morning, but am unable to tolerate it due to allergic reactions(a friend of mine who has CFS also had the same reaction using the same bottle)so we are wanting to try a different brand of Yucca!(it's a NOW product we currently trailed BTW)

Dysbiosis, apart from the stool ecology profile Heathscope Pathology did back then just after that antibiotic over dose, showed HUGE amounts of Yeasts/Candida 4+

But nothing since, no other stool ecology profile has shown any Candida since then OR any over-growths of detrimental yeast or bacteria apart from H.Pylori(Metametrix)which was been treated(retesting soon though)

I am Enterovirus positive BTW via Dr Chia's VP1 staining test


1)IF the candida is in ones GUT and in the Biofilm, why are the Ecology testing Labs NOT able to culture it??

2)Will the Resistant Starch 'break through' the Biofilm and eliminate Candida that way??

 

[Gestalt]

I have used Dr Usman's 'Biofilm Defence' with limited results(1cap 3x a day) with NAC(1cap 3x a day)however there was a slight* improvement in this 'nervousness' - my Doctor saw my Strongly Positive H2S result and my ecology results are more or less negative, he theorised 'Biofilm'

I initially had much success with Candex but it stopped after 2 weeks. I also tried Interfase which is similar to Kirkman's Biofilm Defense & large dose serrapeptase as well as Nattokinase but never felt benefits from them. The Candex was the most effective.

Good bacteria have biofilms as well as bad bacteria so I don't know if focusing on the "biofilms" specifically is such a good strategy. And just because something removes a biofilm, does not necessarily mean it will rid the body of the underlying pathogens either. I believe a more comprehensive ecosystem based strategy is needed.

Tried Yucca recently at bed time for a few nights which helped as I noticed when waking up in the morning, but am unable to tolerate it due to allergic reactions(a friend of mine who has CFS also had the same reaction using the same bottle)so we are wanting to try a different brand of Yucca!(it's a NOW product we currently trailed BTW

I used Nature's way Yucca with a lot of success.

1)IF the candida is in ones GUT and in the Biofilm, why are the Ecology testing Labs NOT able to culture it??

You have to understand the pitfalls of stool testing. And there are many. This was discussed a lot in the Resistant Starch thread, somewhere among the 1300+ posts....

First of all not everything that lives in your gut will necessarily show up in your stool. This has been empirically shown by comparing in vivo biopsy of gut epithelium versus a stool sample and the results differ in terms fo species present and numbers.

Therefore stool may not be an accurate indicator of the population of a given microbe which is a critical factor. If you are excreting it your body may be dumping a lot, meaning little may be left behind. On the other hand it's also possible you have something inside of you that is so attached/healthy that you barely excrete anything giving a improper indication of what's there and how bad it is.

Also nearly everyone has Candida in their guts. It is likely impossible to completely 100% eliminate it. The thing that matters is, if it's in it's harmless unicellular form OR if it's in it's pathogenic/virulent hyphal form. The main thing that appears to govern this is gut pH level. Now the candida may be in a non-pathogenic form in the gut due to low pH, however culture it n an agar dish with a different pH level and voila it may indicate you have an issue when you don't really.

DNA testing (versus culturing) is a bit more accurate as it rules out some confounding variables, but again also has serious limitations. There are between 500-1000 species living in there and nothing currently test for all of them. That said testing (DNA or culturing) is still better than nothing, but take it all with a grain of salt. It can in some cases be very helpful and in others not at all due to the inherent limitations of the current state of our technology and knowledge.

2)Will the Resistant Starch 'break through' the Biofilm and eliminate Candida that way??

I can't answer that question, but I am inclined to think it's possible. This is because RS (or any other SCFA producing prebiotic in sufficient quantity) radically alters the ecosystem within the gut. RS has been empirically shown to create large amounts of butyric acid. This gives rise to greater acidity which is bound to affect ALL organisms in the gut, even ones underneath biofilms I would think. Also RS causes bifido to "bloom" and several other beneficial bacteria that will outcompete candida. The Candida killing yeast boulardii for example also works most efficiently in more acidic conditions such as those that RS creates.

Also Vegas sums up the hydrolysis factor quite well here (as I'm sure you have already read):

The second, method whereby the Bifidum will decrease plasma ammonia is through it's ability to alter pH. Lower pH reduces the production of ammonia by intestinal organisms. What I think is more consequential though is that a lower, and more acidic pH will enhance hydrolysis. In the lower pH of the large intestine ammonia (NH3) can more readily bond with Hydrogen, creating ammonium (NH4). The importance of this reaction is that ammonium cannot pass through the bowel wall into the blood. Reducing pH in the colon thus allows for ammonia to be converted to a less toxic form, and one that does not diffuse into the blood.

 

[end]

I initially had much success with Candex but it stopped after 2 weeks. I also tried Interfase which is similar to Kirkman's Biofilm Defense & large dose serrapeptase as well as Nattokinase but never felt benefits from them. The Candex was the most effective.

Good bacteria have biofilms as well as bad bacteria so I don't know if focusing on the "biofilms" specifically is such a good strategy. And just because something removes a biofilm, does not necessarily mean it will rid the body of the underlying pathogens either. I believe a more comprehensive ecosystem based strategy is needed.

I used Nature's way Yucca with a lot of success.

You have to understand the pitfalls of stool testing. And there are many. This was discussed a lot in the Resistant Starch thread, somewhere among the 1300+ posts....

First of all not everything that lives in your gut will necessarily show up in your stool. This has been empirically shown by comparing in vivo biopsy of gut epithelium versus a stool sample and the results differ in terms fo species present and numbers.

Therefore stool may not be an accurate indicator of the population of a given microbe which is a critical factor. If you are excreting it your body may be dumping a lot, meaning little may be left behind. On the other hand it's also possible you have something inside of you that is so attached/healthy that you barely excrete anything giving a improper indication of what's there and how bad it is.

Also nearly everyone has Candida in their guts. It is likely impossible to completely 100% eliminate it. The thing that matters is, if it's in it's harmless unicellular form OR if it's in it's pathogenic/virulent hyphal form. The main thing that appears to govern this is gut pH level. Now the candida may be in a non-pathogenic form in the gut due to low pH, however culture it n an agar dish with a different pH level and voila it may indicate you have an issue when you don't really.

DNA testing (versus culturing) is a bit more accurate as it rules out some confounding variables, but again also has serious limitations. There are between 500-1000 species living in there and nothing currently test for all of them. That said testing (DNA or culturing) is still better than nothing, but take it all with a grain of salt. It can in some cases be very helpful and in others not at all due to the inherent limitations of the current state of our technology and knowledge.



I can't answer that question, but I am inclined to think it's possible. This is because RS (or any other SCFA producing prebiotic in sufficient quantity) radically alters the ecosystem within the gut. RS has been empirically shown to create large amounts of butyric acid. This gives rise to greater acidity which is bound to affect ALL organisms in the gut, even ones underneath biofilms I would think. Also RS causes bifido to "bloom" and several other beneficial bacteria that will outcompete candida. The Candida killing yeast boulardii for example also works most efficiently in more acidic conditions such as those that RS creates.

Also Vegas sums up the hydrolysis factor quite well here (as I'm sure you have already read):

@Gestalt - once again thanks a bunch!

I also tried large doses of serrapeptase with no positive effect

It sounds like Candex should work with me also.

YSL make a 'generic' Candex which is half the price http://m.vitacost.com/products?q=YST managment may be worth trying or should one just go with the brand what's more reputable?

You both have given many of us(I believe)a LOT of insight re the GUT. The RS thread is HUGE I get exhausted trying to read it all!



Gesalt, very good website also.

 

[PennyIA]

The body has a mechanism of recycling purines when they are in short supply, and I think that is what accounts for the low uric acid in CFS. This is the opposite of the situation in gout, which results from too high a level of uric acid in the blood.

I have been trying to figure out the connections between MTHFR treatment... and getting gout. Everything I was reading was talking about how the methylation process helps with the elimination of uric acide... which would seem that if I was improving that cycle, then I shouldn't have an issue. I have only had gout flare ups since starting methylfolate, and now that I've increased my dosage to a higher level, my gout attacks are getting more frequent. And reading your statement here... that feels very significant and a possible good explanation for my situation.

Other than reducing purines intake (I am adjusting my diet) - or reducing methylfolate (which I'd hate to decrease right now if I can avoid it, it does help at the heavy doses I'm on)... my current 'treatment' is taking AC Carbimide which is a highly alkaline substance and will cancel out a flare up.... but I'd love to know if anyone has any other insight because I'd rather find a way to avoid the flares altogether.

 

[heapsreal]

One of my cfs mates came over yesterday, good to actually meet other cfsers face to face. ANyway he was telling me about using yucca and how it improved his sleep and he wakes up feeling calmer. he gace me have a bottle to try.

I wasnt expecting much as my sleep is crappy at best of times. I took my usual sleep meds and 1x500mg yucca pill. I acutally did sleep better and i woke of my own accord and not like i had a hangover. usually takes me a couple of hours to get going. SO im impressed and will try it again tonight.

So will look further into the whole ammonia and insomnia thing now??

 

[heapsreal]

The same last night, took the yucca and slept well. No hangover feeling when I woke up.

They seem to mention bacterial gut infections produce this. The abx used for this didn't really alter my sleep plus don't have a lot of gut issues etc. Then I came across info on ammonia being produced from viral infections. This makes sense for me.

I will try some ornithine down the track. Anyone else recommend anything else to lower ammonia??

 

[end]

The same last night, took the yucca and slept well. No hangover feeling when I woke up.

They seem to mention bacterial gut infections produce this. The abx used for this didn't really alter my sleep plus don't have a lot of gut issues etc. Then I came across info on ammonia being produced from viral infections. This makes sense for me.

I will try some ornithine down the track. Anyone else recommend anything else to lower ammonia??

Dan check out the RS thread because:

"specifically Resistant Starch has virtually eliminated the excess ammonia and I have no need for yucca anymore."

@Vegas also suggests B.Infantis and another Bifidus probiotic. And generally says to avoid LAB's initially

 

[xjhuez]

YMMV with resistant starch.

I take yucca daily with dinner for ammonia/anxiety. Unfortunately it hasn't helped my sleep at all. I also take resistant starch daily, and it hasn't eliminated my need to take yucca.