Antivirals Effective Against Coronavirus?

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

The skin irritation you described maybe doesn't apply to povidone-iodine products made for skin contact.

It does.

Povidone-iodine

Side effects include skin irritation.

 

[Ecoclimber]

Of those studies you found, the study demonstrating efficacy against H3N2 influenza virus seems the most convincing:


In this study, the silver nanoparticles they used had a mean diameter of around 9.5 nm. So I guess to replicate this, one might need to find a colloidal silver product whose particle diameter is similar.

Usually the product specifications supplied by colloidal silver manufacturer's themselves are highly inaccurate, so you need to find independent lab testing to measure the particle diameter. One such independent lab is here www.silver-colloids.com.

This lab also points out that the three types of consumer products labeled as "colloidal silver" can be categorized as follows:

• ionic silver solutions — the most common type of colloidal silver sold, but not a true colloidal silver
• silver protein — this is the product that have very large particle size, and can cause argyria
• true colloidal silver1

I am not yet convinced that silver nanoparticles have any useful clinical effect against viruses in general though. To be convinced, I'd like to see studies showing that silver nanoparticles can reduce the duration of the common cold say; or allow HIV patients to stop their regular antiretrovirals.

And note that virucidal effects on surfaces is not the same as antiviral effects in the body.

FYI: HIP A CAVEAT IS WARRANTED

FDA and FTC crack down on sellers of fraudulent coronavirus
https://www.businessinsider.com/fda-and-ftc-crack-down-on-sellers-fraudulent-coronavirus-products-2020-3


FDA and FTC crack down on fake coronavirus cures, warning 7 companies ... and colloidal silver the government is 'prepared to take enforcement actions' ... letter

Attorney General James strongly shot down the claim.

"In addition to this fraud, Jones also makes deeply deceptive claims about the benefits and medicinal powers of nano silver or colloidal silver - the main medicinal ingredient in his products," she said.

"According to the National Institutes of Health, colloidal silver can actually be dangerous to a person’s hea
lth, and the FDA has warned that colloidal silver is not safe or effective for treating any disease or condition.

"Countless scientific studies have also determined that there is no evidence to support the use of colloidal silver as a treatment for any disease or condition."

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

I think 1 or 2% povidone-iodine may work better as a hand sanitizer, applied before you go out in public, as in theory this should help kill any viruses that contaminate your hands when you are out and about. This is because the iodine remains on your hands for about 4 to 8 hours (see this post). Whereas with alcohol, that evaporates away after a few minutes.

I'm gonna try this. I think it may provide some very valuable protection.

Thank you, or rather Domo Arigatou Gozaimashita

 

[FromHolland]

@Hip and others: could Equilibrant / Oxymatrine in theory be effective against Corona virus as it acts as a immunomodelator and balances out antiviral Th1 and Th2 cytokines?

 

[splusholia]

Just to add a question related to the previous post... if equilibrant was to help, would you have to have been taking it for a ages prior to getting the virus? I have the same question for tenofovir...

 

[tdog333]

@Hip As far as povidone-iodine goes, I bought a 10% solution. I put 2.5 ML of the povidone-iodine in a spray bottle then filled it up to 25ML with water.

1. This should give me that 1% or so, right?
2. How much do I use to lather?
3. Do I rinse my hands after or just let it rub in and stay on?
4. Does it lose potency or degrade by just sitting out in a plastic bottle being diluted by water?

Thanks

 

[Hip]

1. This should give me that 1% or so, right?
2. How much do I use to lather?
3. Do I rinse my hands after or just let it rub in and stay on?
4. Does it lose potency or degrade by just sitting out in a plastic bottle being diluted by water?

Yes, 2.5 ml of 10% povidone-iodine filled up to 25 ml with water will give you a 1% solution. When I use my 1% povidone-iodine solution, I spray enough of the liquid into the palm of my hand to wet all my hands as I rub my hand together.

You should not rinse after applying, as this will wash off the iodine, and you will have lost the protection that it provides for 4 hours or so after. The idea is to apply some povidone-iodine solution before you go out in public, so that if your hands happened to pick up some virus, the layer of povidone-iodine on your hands should hopefully kill it within minutes.

But when you get back home from being out in public, it's still good to wash your hands properly. That I think will remove the povidone-iodine. But you can always reapply if you go out again.

To my knowledge, the povidone-iodine does not degrade when added to water, because the original 10% solution is already in water.

The povidone-iodine molecule when it makes contact with your skin slowly releases the iodine it contains, and this slow release mechanism is why it can remain an effective disinfectant on the skin for hours. I am not quite sure what it is on the skin that causes the povidone-iodine too break down and release it's iodine though.

 

[FromHolland]

Just to add a question related to the previous post... if equilibrant was to help, would you have to have been taking it for a ages prior to getting the virus? I have the same question for tenofovir...

I started yesterday with 1/2 tablet against persistent CBV, and now a day later I notice strong flu-like symptoms (i.e., sore throat, sore muscles, cough, shivering, raised temp. etc.). Don't know the exact mechanism and how it works, but it's certainly doing something.

 

[Hip]

@Hip and others: could Equilibrant / Oxymatrine in theory be effective against Corona virus as it acts as a immunomodelator and balances out antiviral Th1 and Th2 cytokines?

I am not sure. But I would be cautious with immunomodulators which ramp up the immune attack on the virus, as its known that death from the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus often occurs due to lung damage from a cytokine storm — an immune response which is too strong. See this article.

The article mentions that blocking the cytokine IL-6 is reported to be successful in China. So this may be the sort of immunomodulation which helps: inhibiting IL-6 to reduce the cytokine storm and reduce the ferocity of immune attack on the lungs.

In this post I listed a number of IL-6 inhibitor drugs and supplements (but at the moment I am not clear on which of these might work, and which might be the most appropriate).

 

[Hip]

It does

Since I am diluting down 10% povidone-iodine solution to 1% for use as a hand sanitizer, this weaker solution I hope will be less irritating.

Hopefully 1% should be fine for disinfection purposes; in the study of the efficacy of disinfectants against coronavirus, even a 0.23% povidone-iodine solution killed the virus in 15 seconds (see table II).

 

[FromHolland]

I am not sure. But I would be cautious with immunomodulators which ramp up the immune attack on the virus, as its known that death from the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus often occurs due to lung damage from a cytokine storm — an immune response which is too strong. See this article.

The article mentions that blocking the cytokine IL-6 is reported to be successful in China. So this may be the sort of immunomodulation which helps: inhibiting IL-6 to reduce the cytokine storm and reduce the ferocity of immune attack on the lungs.

In this post I listed a number of IL-6 inhibitor drugs and supplements (but at the moment I am not clear on which of these might work, and which might be the most appropriate).

If this is accurate, then avoiding immunomodulators such as Equilibrant / Oxymatrine is something that I/we should better avoid until things calm down with the coronavirus, correct?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

In this post I listed a number of IL-6 inhibitor drugs and supplements (but at the moment I am not clear on which of these might work, and which might be the most appropriate).

Great post! Thanks for your tremendous efforts to summarize this useful info!

Do we know enough to suggest that corona-v is NOT like Spanish flu? which strongly affected the young...

My grandmother's first husband died at 22 in 1919.

I remain concerned about taking immune boosting substances...

 

[FromHolland]

New research indicating that Coronavirus can survive in air for 3 Hours, and up to 3 days on surfaces: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.09.20033217v1.full.pdf,

The lead researcher suggests that cleaning surfaces with solutions containing diluted bleach is most likely to kill the virus

 

[Hip]

Do we know enough to suggest that corona-v is NOT like Spanish flu? which strongly affected the young...

Yes, we know the death rate for this coronavirus is much higher in the over 70s, and much lower for those under 50.


This site provides a death rate by age chart:

However, the actual death rates are going to be quite a bit lower than those, because this is the death rate for the recorded symptomatic cases, and does not include asymptomatic cases. You can probably divided the above figures by about 4 to get the actual death rate. Nevertheless, it shows how the risk is a lot higher in older people.

 

[Hip]

If this is accurate, then avoiding immunomodulators such as Equilibrant / Oxymatrine is something that I/we should better avoid until things calm down with the coronavirus, correct?

It's hard to say whether oxymatrine and other immunomodulators would help or hinder. I don't think you have to avoid them if you don't have an active infection with coronavirus. I could not find any evidence that oxymatrine boosts IL-6.

 

[minimus]

I subscribe to Paul Cheney's "concierge service", in which I pay an annual subscription fee in return for occasional emails from Cheney with treatment recommendations and other thoughts about ME/CFS.

Though he usually only sends out an email every few months, Cheney has sent quite a few in the last month about Covid-19. He is concerned that in the US, at least, the healthcare system will be overwhelmed like it is in parts of Italy because there has been little effort here to "flatten the curve" -- i.e. reduce the rate of transmission so that fewer people are sick and in need of intensive medical care at any single point in time. His concern is that in that event, a lot of people might not have access to intensive medical treatment that might be necessary.

He says that he does not know how much risk a SARS-Cov-2 infection poses to ME/CFS patients -- whether we are likely be on the mild or severe end of the severity spectrum.

In the plus column is the evidence that the RNase L antiviral pathway is upregulated in ME/CFS, which could be protective against severe illness. However, this upregulation seems to happen in the early stage of the illness, and seems to fade the longer one is sick. He also theorizes that our apparent hypometabolic state -- Naviaux's "dauer-like" response -- could serve as a protective mechanism.

In the minus column, Hornig showed that immune exhaustion tends to set in after roughly 3 years of illness. In addition, long-term CFS patients seem to be more at risk of developing insulin resistance. Citing the research of Gerald Reaven at Stanford, Cheney hypothesizes that the common link between the conditions -- diabetes, high blood pressure, and cardiovascular disease -- that predispose patients to severe Covid-19 is insulin resistance.

I personally think a lot of the long-term ill, like myself, have developed comorbid conditions -- immune deficiency, autoimmune conditions, neuropathy, etc. -- that might worsen the clinical course of this infectious disease. Also, good luck convincing a doctor that ME/CFS makes you a potentially high risk case in need of close medical monitoring.

In trying to keep the risk of severe Covid-19 as low as possible, Cheney has the following general recommendations:

1. Try if possible to limit eating to an 8-hour window during the day (e.g. 11AM to 7PM), which over time will yield the benefits of calorie restriction;
2. Avoid glycemic foods (sugar, most fruits, refined carbs/starches, etc.) to the extent possible to reduce blood sugar fluctuations during the day and to try to gradually reduce HgbA1C to below 5.4.
3. Take 400iu of Vitamin D daily. He says to avoid high doses of vitamin D, as some studies suggest that too much vitamin D can worsen viral illness, especially in people with Vitamin D receptor SNPs, which he says are common in ME/CFS patients.
4. Try to get adequate, regular sleep to the extent possible.
5. Keep a thermometer on hand to monitor if you start running a fever, as well as a pulse oximeter, available online or from a pharmacy. I guess his thinking is that in Covid patients, oxygen saturation starts to fall before shortness of breath becomes severe, so a pulse oximeter might give an early warning sign that more intensive medical care is necessary.

More recently, he has written about two possible treatment protocols that might help in the event you or a family member end up with Covid-19. I actually think he is getting some of his ideas from daily YouTube videos posted by MedCram, and then reading the scientific literature discussed in these videos on his own. Note that this is not medical advice -- maybe just ideas to discuss with your doctor if you live in an area with widespread community transmission and you cannot fully self-isolate.

1. Hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil). An anti-malarial prescription medication that appears to act as a zinc ionophore, meaning it allows zinc to enter the cell and reduce viral replication. It is also thought to reduce the risk of cytokine storm. Note that there are no double-blind placebo controlled trials proving this drug works against this coronavirus. The evidence supporting its use is from in vitro, not in vivo studies. Still, there have been some papers out of China supporting the use of this drug for Covid. The South Korean CDC yesterday recommended the use of this medication, in addition to antiretrovirals, based on recommendations from a panel of expert physicians on the front lines of the epidemic in Korea. Hydroxychloroquine can have significant negative side effects, so it should definitely not be taken on a whim. It is supposedly widely available, though I have no idea if it can be purchased from a prescription-free online pharmacy.
2. Quercetin. Quercetin at a fairly high dose (3-7 grams per day) also may act as a zinc ionophore. Quercetin obviously is a supplement, not a prescription medication, so it is widely available. Nobody has any idea if quercetin is effective for SARS-CoV-2, though it seems to have antiviral effects against Zika and Ebola. Quercetin does not seem to have the negative side effect profile of hydroxychloroquine, though others here would know more about this than I do.

Cheney says that human studies are underway for both hydroxychloroquine and quercetin, so hopefully more will be known about their efficacy soon enough.

Separately, I was forwarded an email with clinical observations from a Western physician who has been on the front lines of treatment in Wuhan. He noted that gargling with highly diluted Betadine (povidone-iodine) appears to reduce the risk that the SARS-CoV-2 virus will move from the throat into the lungs. I have no idea about the safety of gargling diluted Betadine, but maybe @Hip does. I just flagged this physician's comment because povidone-iodine has been mentioned a few times earlier in this thread.

Of course, I hope none of these treatments are actually needed by anyone in the Phoenix Rising community.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I subscribe to Paul Cheney's "concierge service", in which I pay an annual subscription fee in return for occasional emails from Cheney with treatment recommendations and other thoughts about ME/CFS.

Though he usually only sends out an email every few months, Cheney has sent quite a few in the last month about Covid-19. He is concerned that in the US, at least, the healthcare system will be overwhelmed like it is in parts of Italy because there has been little effort here to "flatten the curve" -- i.e. reduce the rate of transmission so that fewer people are sick and in need of intensive medical care at any single point in time. His concern is that in that event, a lot of people might not have access to intensive medical treatment that might be necessary.

He says that he does not know how much risk a SARS-Cov-2 infection poses to ME/CFS patients -- whether we are likely be on the mild or severe end of the severity spectrum.

In the plus column is the evidence that the RNase L antiviral pathway is upregulated in ME/CFS, which could be protective against severe illness. However, this upregulation seems to happen in the early stage of the illness, and seems to fade the longer one is sick. He also theorizes that our apparent hypometabolic state -- Naviaux's "dauer-like" response -- could serve as a protective mechanism.

In the minus column, Hornig showed that immune exhaustion tends to set in after roughly 3 years of illness. In addition, long-term CFS patients seem to be more at risk of developing insulin resistance. Citing the research of Gerald Reaven at Stanford, Cheney hypothesizes that the common link between the conditions -- diabetes, high blood pressure, and cardiovascular disease -- that predispose patients to severe Covid-19 is insulin resistance.

I personally think a lot of the long-term ill, like myself, have developed comorbid conditions -- immune deficiency, autoimmune conditions, neuropathy, etc. -- that might worsen the clinical course of this infectious disease. Also, good luck convincing a doctor that ME/CFS makes you a potentially high risk case in need of close medical monitoring.

In trying to keep the risk of severe Covid-19 as low as possible, Cheney has the following general recommendations:

1. Try if possible to limit eating to an 8-hour window during the day (e.g. 11AM to 7PM), which over time will yield the benefits of calorie restriction;
2. Avoid glycemic foods (sugar, most fruits, refined carbs/starches, etc.) to the extent possible to reduce blood sugar fluctuations during the day and to try to gradually reduce HgbA1C to below 5.4.
3. Take 400iu of Vitamin D daily. He says to avoid high doses of vitamin D, as some studies suggest that too much vitamin D can worsen viral illness, especially in people with Vitamin D receptor SNPs, which he says are common in ME/CFS patients.
4. Try to get adequate, regular sleep to the extent possible.
5. Keep a thermometer on hand to monitor if you start running a fever, as well as a pulse oximeter, available online or from a pharmacy. I guess his thinking is that in Covid patients, oxygen saturation starts to fall before shortness of breath becomes severe, so a pulse oximeter might give an early warning sign that more intensive medical care is necessary.

More recently, he has written about two possible treatment protocols that might help in the event you or a family member end up with Covid-19. I actually think he is getting some of his ideas from daily YouTube videos posted by MedCram, and then reading the scientific literature discussed in these videos on his own. Note that this is not medical advice -- maybe just ideas to discuss with your doctor if you live in an area with widespread community transmission and you cannot fully self-isolate.

1. Hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil). An anti-malarial prescription medication that appears to act as a zinc ionophore, meaning it allows zinc to enter the cell and reduce viral replication. It is also thought to reduce the risk of cytokine storm. Note that there are no double-blind placebo controlled trials proving this drug works against this coronavirus. The evidence supporting its use is from in vitro, not in vivo studies. Still, there have been some papers out of China supporting the use of this drug for Covid. The South Korean CDC yesterday recommended the use of this medication, in addition to antiretrovirals, based on recommendations from a panel of expert physicians on the front lines of the epidemic in Korea. Hydroxychloroquine can have significant negative side effects, so it should definitely not be taken on a whim. It is supposedly widely available, though I have no idea if it can be purchased from a prescription-free online pharmacy.
2. Quercetin. Quercetin at a fairly high dose (3-7 grams per day) also may act as a zinc ionophore. Quercetin obviously is a supplement, not a prescription medication, so it is widely available. Nobody has any idea if quercetin is effective for SARS-CoV-2, though it seems to have antiviral effects against Zika and Ebola. Quercetin does not seem to have the negative side effect profile of hydroxychloroquine, though others here would know more about this than I do.

Cheney says that human studies are underway for both hydroxychloroquine and quercetin, so hopefully more will be known about their efficacy soon enough.

Separately, I was forwarded an email with clinical observations from a Western physician who has been on the front lines of treatment in Wuhan. He noted that gargling with highly diluted Betadine (povidone-iodine) appears to reduce the risk that the SARS-CoV-2 virus will move from the throat into the lungs. I have no idea about the safety of gargling diluted Betadine, but maybe @Hip does. I just flagged this physician's comment because povidone-iodine has been mentioned a few times earlier in this thread.

Of course, I hope none of these treatments are actually needed by anyone in the Phoenix Rising community.

Thanks for sharing Dr Cheney's current thoughts.
Just to mention - Betadine Sore Throat Gargle seems to be available both as a concentrate to be diluted 1:20 with water or as a ready to use solution.

 

[Hip]

I have no idea about the safety of gargling diluted Betadine, but maybe @Hip does.

I've seen povidone-iodine 1% solutions being sold as a mouth gargle, so should be perfectly safe.

Salt water gargling may be useful too, as chloride ions in the salt are used by cells to make the bleach hypochlorous acid (HOCI), which fights viruses. See this post for more details.

 

[Ecoclimber]

Hi I’m Dr Chen and older than I look
@Chenbariatrics1

THREAD:

1/ March 10,2020

“This is from a front-line ICU physician in a Seattle hospital

This is his personal account:

* we have 21 pts and 11 deaths since 2/28.

* we are seeing pts who are young (20s), fit, no comorbidities, critically ill. It does happen.

*steroids are up in the air. In China usual clinical practice for all ARDS is high dose methylpred. Thus, ALL of their pts have had high dose methylpred. Some question whether this practice increases mortality.

Lancet China Article
Interesting on the chart below between survivors and non-survivors

On both survivors & non-survivors notice both groups have sepsis infection before ARD. The survivor group recovers immediately if they get sepsis on Day 9 followed on Day 10 with ARD. Whereas non-survivors are infected with sepsis Day 10 followed by ARD on Day 12 and then followed by invasive intubation/ventilation.

 

[Wayne]

For anybody who has even a tepid interest in the potential value of Vitamin C therapy to treat or possibly prevent coronavirus infection, the following information about the origins of Vitamin C therapy in the U.S. might be of interest. I actually think it makes for a pretty gripping story. -- It's amazing to me how many online articles are now appearing trying to poo poo the potential for what I consider to be a remarkable therapy.
...............................................................

Linus Pauling (who lived to age 93), was well known for his advocacy of Vitamin C therapy. What most people don't know is that his interest in Vitamin C was piqued by a rural country doctor from N. Carolina (Frederick Klenner) who practiced back in the 1940's. This doctor was at a loss as to how to treat the many children coming in with polio. But having read some interesting articles on IV Vitamin C, he thought why not give it a try on these children with polio. In short, he treated 60 kids, and they were all healed within 3-5 days.

The work of Klenner and Pauling eventually caught the interest of Thomas E. Levy, MD, a board-certified internist and cardiologist, and author of several books. His website is http://www.PeakEnergy.com .) Below is a portion of what he had to say about the above story on Klenner curing children with polio (From this article: Vitamin C May Be A Life-Saver - Mega-doses Can Counter Avian Flu, Hepatitis & Herpes, And Control Advance Of AIDS).
..............................................................

""Imagine that a deadly virus is sweeping the world, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of children. Nothing seems able to stop it - until a doctor stands up at the American Medical Association and reports on 60 cases involving severely infected children, all of whom have been cured. Yet his work, subsequently reported in a peer-review journal, is ignored, leaving the virus to wreak havoc for decades.

This isn't a docudrama about some futuristic plague - it's a true story about what happened in June 1949 when polio was at its peak. Dr Frederick Klenner, a clinical researcher from Reidsville, North Carolina, reported that a massive intravenous dose of Vitamin C - up to 20,000mg daily for three days (today's recommended daily allowance is 60mg) - had cured 60 of his patients. The findings were published in a medical journal, yet there was virtually no interest. Apart from a couple of minor trials, no attempt was made to find out if they had any scientific substance.

Relating this curious incident in a new book, Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases & Toxins: Curing the Incurable, Dr Thomas Levy, a US cardiologist, admits to being gripped by a range of emotions when he came across Klenner's work and other studies that replicated it. "To know that polio had been easily cured yet so many people continued to die, or survived to be permanently crippled by it, was difficult to accept."

Levy argues that the medical profession has routinely ignored research showing that high doses of Vitamin C can combat bacteria, toxins and severe viral infections including avian flu, SARS, hepatitis and herpes. And this is not a case of doctors sniffing at anecdotal evidence from a handful of enthusiasts. "Vitamin C is possibly the best-researched substance in the world. There are more than 24,000 papers and articles on the authoritative clinical website, Medline. Yet virtually the all the evidence has been dismissed." Levy even claims that Aids can be controlled if a high enough dosage of Vitamin C is maintained.""