Another hypnotist claims he can cure ME??? (Steven Blake)

[alex3619]

Hi Bob, that is where I think both hypnosis and CBT apply: enhancement of coping skills. By trying to push research for a cure, the CBT researchers are not only taking resources away from biomedical ME research, since they apply for the same grant money, but also from other CBT research into coping strategies in ME. Its a double whammy. Bye, Alex

 

[Enid]

Indeed a double whammy - coping skills one thing but tests and treatments/aid for the various system problems has to be the priority, especially now science/medical research reveals the abnormalities which can be addressed. Though I do know complete rest (mental and physical) can aid as the body (a self preservation system after all) can help in some ease. It simply isn't the answer until the underlying pathologies are fully understood - it's an illness not much related to Freudian subconsciousness.

 

[Tammy]

I guess I am in the minority in the way I feel about this discussion as I was in the thread that Joyful lady started. There are things that defy logic and cannot always be explained. If something has helped or even cured someone of an illness...........why does it really matter what the method was? Why do some supplements help some and not others? Why can a healer help some and not others? I am so happy for the few that have recovered from whatever method worked for them. Do we always have to have explanations? I have not been cured from CFS and I have done everything from standard, medical to what some term "new age". For me..........I have not concluded that because these things didn't work for me.....that they may not work for another. Please .............no tomato throwing!

 

[Bob]

I guess I am in the minority in the way I feel about this discussion as I was in the thread that Joyful lady started. There are things that defy logic and cannot always be explained. If something has helped or even cured someone of an illness...........why does it really matter what the method was? Why do some supplements help some and not others? Why can a healer help some and not others? I am so happy for the few that have recovered from whatever method worked for them. Do we always have to have explanations? I have not been cured from CFS and I have done everything from standard, medical to what some term "new age". For me..........I have not concluded that because these things didn't work for me.....that they may not work for another. Please .............no tomato throwing!

It all depends on what claims are being made, Tammy, and the motivation behind such claims.

For example, we are told that ME is a psychiatric disease, and that CBT and GET are effective in treating ME. They don't say that CBT and GET will simply help us cope with living with a chronic illness, but they say that CBT/GET will treat the actual illness. This claim about the therapeutic effect of CBT/GET gives power and credibility to their claim that ME is a psychiatric illness. But when they carried out rigorous medical trials, it turns out that the psychiatrists were misinterpreting natural fluctuations, or a placebo response, as a therapeutic effect, and in fact CBT/GET are of little help (as we all already knew.)

The same goes for the Lightning Process. They have made all sorts of claims in the past, about its efficacy, and they charge up to £800/$1000 for a three day 'training' program. But the Lightning Process is little more than a positive thinking course, so it's not going to treat a physical illness, any more than CBT/GET do.

That's not to say that CBT or LP or Hypnosis etc., can't help people feel better about themselves in some way.

Some patients might feel better after undergoing these therapies, but unless a rigorous study is carried out, then we don't know if their illness actually responded to the therapy, or if they just experienced natural fluctuations, or if it was just the placebo effect that they experienced, or if they just experienced a psychological boost which maybe helped them out of a mental rut that they had got into, which had nothing directly to do with the actual symptoms of ME.

So we've got to have claims of therapeutic 'effect' backed up with evidence.
Otherwise, resources get diverted into the wrong areas of research, because the illness is misunderstood.
Not to mention vulnerable patients getting ripped off.

There are always going to be anecdotal reports of improvements, for all types of therapies.

If therapists were to claim that they had a 'therapy' that made some patients better able to cope with living with a chronic illness, but that they couldn't help improve the illness itself, then I wouldn't have a such problem with them offering their services. But they don't usually offer money-back guarantees, so I'd still have a bit of a problem with it.

 

[maddietod]

Of course, not one of my many doctors through the years has offered a money back guarantee either. Good thing too......they'd all be broke.

 

[Bob]

Hypnotherapy is a psychological 'therapy'. It alters the brain's state of wakefulness, to a more relaxed state, such that 'suggestions' can be considered in a more receptive way, and possibly so that our inner world of thoughts can be explored in a more receptive and insightful way. No one would be allowed to claim that hypnotherapy can cure Parkinson's disease, or Schizophrenia, or MS. It is only through ignorance about the nature of ME, that people think it's appropriate to make such claims about ME.

 

[beaverfury]

'For my own therapy practice I have selected the main areas of business I think will give me a living, be enjoyable work and will appeal to clients.
So my main menu items are:
Helping people recover from Chronic Fatigue, Stopping Hot Flushes, Business and Weight Loss Consultancy. I not only have separate business cards for each of these, on my web site you will see I have swapped the pictures in the rotating picture box to be like mini business cards of those services. I deliberately chose a different style of card to suit the chosen market, so for instance the Hot Flush Away card has the reddening effect that would be seen when the problem occurs. This way you can suit the age group and any other demographic. You can even have different cards to suit different types of client.' Steve Blake

'I had over twenty years in sales and learnt every sales close you can name. At that time in my early years selling was what you did to someone so some sales closers were named after wrestling techniques such has the Half Nelson and others after generals like the Duke of Wellington.
Even fifteen years ago I was teaching people to break away from a concentration on closing by making the whole process a more consultative process where you guide the prospective buyer through what is best for their needs. You still close the sale and it is an integral part of helping them, not a “you have heard my pitch now BUY”!' Steve Blake

'The main thing that came from my years in selling was that selling was really easy and enjoyable – the hard bit was getting in front of potential new clients.' Steve Blake

 

[beaverfury]

Sorry. Moderator can remove it if they deem so. Probably just more shit stirring.
No-one on here is in danger of parting with money anyway, i dont think.

Its a shame because i really believe in behavioural therapies like Gupta.

Steve Blake seems to be a 'Placebo Facilitator' whose main focus is on business.

 

[alex3619]

I guess I am in the minority in the way I feel about this discussion as I was in the thread that Joyful lady started. There are things that defy logic and cannot always be explained. If something has helped or even cured someone of an illness...........why does it really matter what the method was? Why do some supplements help some and not others? Why can a healer help some and not others? I am so happy for the few that have recovered from whatever method worked for them. Do we always have to have explanations? I have not been cured from CFS and I have done everything from standard, medical to what some term "new age". For me..........I have not concluded that because these things didn't work for me.....that they may not work for another. Please .............no tomato throwing!

Then there is the other side of the story, Tammy. People have had severe relapses due to these treatments. Some have died. Some have deteriorated so badly they were sent home, and then they died. Others who were kind of coping wound up in wheelchairs. Its not tomato throwing, its analysis. There is a good chance we can all be cured if our entire immune systems are killed and restarted, this happens in MS, but the death rate from the treatment is horrendous - it would be hard to even get ethical approval for a trial, and with reason. The negatives have to be looked at as well as the postives, plus likely outcomes, plus secondary consequences, plus cost effectiveness.

On secondary consequences, I have alluded to two here. First, they take research money away from avenues that could lead to real cures. Second, they take research money away from avenues that could lead to better treatment.

Nobody objects to people getting better, whether or not they have ME. Nobody doubts these strategies are helpful for some people with some problems - but who they are and which problems they have are poorly defined.

I do think we could benefit from CBT and hypnotism research, etc., if it were applied in areas for which these treatments have good effect - improvement of coping skills. That is not what is happening, at least most of the time.

Just to be clear, in this post I am generalizing to all thought modifying treatments, including LP, CBT and hypnosis. Each poses similar risks so far as I can see.

Bye, Alex

 

[taniaaust1]

I would never have approached such therapies in order to help me with ME symptoms, though, as I understand the nature of the ME. Neither would I expect such therapies to cure HIV or Parkinson's disease. I would only use such therapies to help me cope with the negative cognitive issues that accompany acute and chronic illnesses.

I think that in itself is important.. I would NEVER either go to a hypnotherapist for a cure of ME as I know the illness is more then to do with my thoughts. I'd think there would be some biased with the ones who do choose to go and try hypnotherapy to "cure".. those going to hypnotherapist for cures, would have to be new ME/CFS patients who havent had the illness a long time (so hence more likely to have remissions anyway) or those who do suspect a bit that their thinking may be a big factor with their illness.

 

[Bob]

'For my own therapy practice I have selected the main areas of business I think will give me a living, be enjoyable work and will appeal to clients.
So my main menu items are:
Helping people recover from Chronic Fatigue, Stopping Hot Flushes, Business and Weight Loss Consultancy. I not only have separate business cards for each of these, on my web site you will see I have swapped the pictures in the rotating picture box to be like mini business cards of those services. I deliberately chose a different style of card to suit the chosen market, so for instance the Hot Flush Away card has the reddening effect that would be seen when the problem occurs. This way you can suit the age group and any other demographic. You can even have different cards to suit different types of client.' Steve Blake

'I had over twenty years in sales and learnt every sales close you can name. At that time in my early years selling was what you did to someone so some sales closers were named after wrestling techniques such has the Half Nelson and others after generals like the Duke of Wellington.
Even fifteen years ago I was teaching people to break away from a concentration on closing by making the whole process a more consultative process where you guide the prospective buyer through what is best for their needs. You still close the sale and it is an integral part of helping them, not a “you have heard my pitch now BUY”!' Steve Blake

'The main thing that came from my years in selling was that selling was really easy and enjoyable – the hard bit was getting in front of potential new clients.' Steve Blake

Well, there's a wake up call for all of us.

This is a good example of why we should be sceptical and even suspicious of people who promote their therapies as a treatment.
They are running a business, and their primary objective is to make their business profitable.
As far as I am aware, there is no medical evidence for efficacy for hypnotherapy in treating ME.
To promote it as a 'treatment' is misleading, and possibly fraudulent.

Looking at the website, it is very close to suggesting that the hypnotherapy can lead to a recovery for ME patients, and can cure ME. I think Trading Standards might be interested in such claims.

 

[Sushi]

'For my own therapy practice I have selected the main areas of business I think will give me a living, be enjoyable work and will appeal to clients.
So my main menu items are:
Helping people recover from Chronic Fatigue, Stopping Hot Flushes, Business and Weight Loss Consultancy. I not only have separate business cards for each of these, on my web site you will see I have swapped the pictures in the rotating picture box to be like mini business cards of those services....

'The main thing that came from my years in selling was that selling was really easy and enjoyable – the hard bit was getting in front of potential new clients.' Steve Blake

Well there goes giving him the benefit of the doubt re: intentions!

I guess we are an example of the difficulty of "getting in front of potential new clients."

Sushi

 

[garcia]

Saw this article today and thought of this thread!
Not Getting Sleepy? Why Hypnosis Doesn't Work for All

ScienceDaily (Oct. 3, 2012) — Not everyone is able to be hypnotized, and new research from the Stanford University School of Medicine shows how the brains of such people differ from those who can easily be.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121003195139.htm

 

[PhoenixDown]

I do think we could benefit from CBT and hypnotism research, etc., if it were applied in areas for which these treatments have good effect - improvement of coping skills. That is not what is happening, at least most of the time.

I don't see CBT going anywhere new, and for every £ spent on other research, I think we'll see far more benefit. Breaking the notion of "there are no tests" is one of the first things we should put money into, even if it's just getting the message out to doctors and the general public regarding existing tests.

 

[alex3619]

Hi PhoenixDown, "there are no tests" is a scientific fallacy, and it should be opposed, I agree. It is however, in the UK, a policy that is imposed on the medical community. This is a political issue as much as a scientific one. Bye, Alex

 

[PhoenixDown]

This is a political issue as much as a scientific one. Bye, Alex

Politics costs money.

 

[Steven Blake]

I have a great empathy with ME/CFS sufferers. I have now helped 8 out of 8 people vastly increase their quality of life. Not enough for a scientific result but let me explain, as I do get so much stick trying to help and so much online abuse , despite losing so much money trying to help you! It is not all in your mind, it is a physical issue no different to ulcers, tumours, or heart problems. Recent research shows that DNA is not just for the initial building of a cell and that every cell adapts to its environment. Every ME/CFS/Fibromyalgia sufferer has the same story, despite everyone having different symptoms. Please, please, stop attacking individuals like myself trying to find the answer. I have no problem you disagreeing with me, in fact please let us have that sensible conversation. But don't question my integrity as I nearly lost my home developing my theory. I would love to take part in clinical trials, providing an external body both funds and provides independent analysis. I do feel I understand how ME/CFS/Fibromyalgia starts and develops and why it continues, and why it is different in everyone (hence why pharmaceutical companies will never invest in a "cure").

I'm here for you, accept or reject me. It's not my problem, I'm only trying to Help! Continued abuse will only make me move on to others I can help. Few others will wish top get involved in trying to find the answers considering the level of abuse involved.

 

[Esther12]

This is not really the right thread for your post Steven. Looking carefully at the evidence released from PACE, and how it was spun, has nothing to do with whether CFS is 'all in the mind', or anything else. It's about trying to look honestly at the evidence. I think it's very unlikely that you understand how ME/CFS/FMS starts and develops, but if you do have any good evidence to support your claims then please start a new thread about it.

Moderator: please note that post 97 was moved from another thread and merged into this thread.

 

[Steven Blake]

Why is it very unlikely that I understand how ME/CFS/FMS starts and develops? I have spent over 18 months (at my own expense) studying and testing my theory. I have gone to considerable expense and became close to losing my home because of this. I have also helped all the people who came to me. So your summary dismissal of me is less evidenced than my claims. All I want to do is help, I have not made any money from this, and am now fighting to keep my home. What is it you want from people like me trying to help! Please tell me what you want other than drugs as no pharmaceutical company will ever invest in finding a cure to something that is so individual.

 

[Esther12]

Lots of people have spent much longer than 18 months trying to understand the causes of ME/CFS/FMS. None of them seem to have come up with genuinely worthwhile treatments, and a lot have made things worse for patients with false claims about efficacy. All I want from those planning to treat any medical condition is that they commit to being honest with their patients, and only making claims which are well supported by the evidence. There have been lots of people come and go with pet theories about ME/CFS/FMS/whatever, and I'm afraid that they have not done anything to help patients. I really think that any discussion about your theories or proposed treatments would be better suited to another thread. Ta.