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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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always feel better at night, every day

Messages
13
without fail for the past few years i've had this condition i've always felt better at night. i've even said if i had my night-time condition during the day then life would be a lot more tolerable. more enjoyment, more interest in things, more tolerance to fatigue and pain, less brainfog, a lot less sleepiness. a lot is still there but the difference is night and day haha. the simple answer is "circadian rhythm" but it feels like something deeper is going on. like some sort of brain inflammation. right now i sleep at 5am and usually wake at 2-3pm. this isn't a great schedule for obvious reasons and i'd like to fix this. the problem is because i feel so good at night, i have absolutely no motivation to sleep earlier at say midnight, plus it is extremely difficult because i'm buzzing with energy. i'm not sure if i should force myself to sleep at 12 and miss out on those peak hours for potentially months or years on end, or if i should focus on treating my condition first. my logic is that if i find some sort of treatment that helps me, for example LDN, i'll naturally want to sleep earlier, because the underlying pathology that is causing this bizarre day/night rhythm will be treated. what do you guys think?
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,250
Location
Canada
I'd say if you have a time that feels remotely good then that is more important than keeping to a 'normal' schedule. If you can accomplish something at 2am it still counts.

I would say at night I feel more restful and less like my system is burning through energy. Even on nights with poor sleep, it's in the days following that I feel bad. I do sleep naturally at night, not in the day but many people are designed to live on a different schedule.
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
Likely due to cortisol cycling. Cortisol is diurnal meaning it cycles 2x per day and finally comes down in the evening. Cortisol is a major adrenal hormone that is related to stress (mental, emotional, biological etc). It is also influenced by the immune response. It also plays a role in maintaining the system (homeostasis).

Cortisol also affects sleep/wake cycles.
 
Messages
13
Likely due to cortisol cycling. Cortisol is diurnal meaning it cycles 2x per day and finally comes down in the evening. Cortisol is a major adrenal hormone that is related to stress (mental, emotional, biological etc). It is also influenced by the immune response. It also plays a role in maintaining the system (homeostasis).

Cortisol also affects sleep/wake cycles.
Interesting. I had a cortisol test at 9am and it was pretty high (normal) could it still be that? How would I fix it?
 

Dude

Senior Member
Messages
193
Same here, around 6 p.m. things start to get better. If I had this condition from the evening all day long, it would be an enormous improvement in the quality of life. Maybe I should look for a job as a night porter 😁
 

borko2100

Senior Member
Messages
160
I had a period of around 3 years where I experienced the same thing. It was very consistent, happening every day and around a similar time. I had more energy, didn't need to lay down and interestingly my mood was also better, as if I was taking a very fast acting anti depressant.

Then I had a major crash and it went away, I just felt bad the entire day. Now a few years after the crash I started noticing this night-time improvement come back occasionally, maybe once a week or something like that.
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
Interesting. I had a cortisol test at 9am and it was pretty high (normal) could it still be that? How would I fix it?
The adrenal glands are a pivotal part of the ME process and cortisol is the primary hormone secreted from the adrenals. There are many other hormones which I will not list here.

I think that cortisol testing could be helpful, but I think that cortisol cycling is different for ME people. e.g. the same rules do not apply for ME.

Since cortisol is a major regulator of cell function, it influences many systems.

Cortisol influences sleep/wake, blood sugar, neurological etc.

Cortisol is triggered by stress. That stress could be many things including immune system activation, toxins, nutrient deficiencies, social stress, driving, phone calls, financial stress etc.

In the context of ME, likely the primary cause is immune activation.

I can offer some ideas on regulating it with specific nutrients, just let me know.
 
Last edited:
Messages
13
The adrenal glands are a pivotal part of the ME process and cortisol is the primary hormone secreted from the adrenals. There are many other hormones which I will not list here.

I think that cortisol testing could be helpful, but I think that cortisol cycling is different for ME people. e.g. the same rules do not apply for ME.

Since cortisol is a major regulator of cell function, it influences many systems.

Cortisol influences sleep/wake, blood sugar, neurological etc.

Cortisol is triggered by stress. That stress could be many things including immune system activation, toxins, nutrient deficiencies, social stress, driving, phone calls, financial stress etc.

In the context of ME, likely the primary cause is immune activation.

I can offer some ideas on regulating it with specific nutrients, just let me know.
I'd definitely like to hear about those nutrients
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
You can reference some of Dr. Lam's research - he is pretty good with adrenal fatigue*

What I did was found primarily out of a book from Adelle Davis - actually just a chapter about stress. It was a remarkable and life changing moment to find that research and that was a long time ago. I was written in the 1950s and at the time I found it, it was the only mention of adrenals and the stress reactions. I think it was "Let's Get Well" - Amazon has it for < $20. Just the chapter on stress.

Her protocol centered around the different stages of adrenal stress and tailoring some of the therpaies around that. Primarily it centered around the use of Vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid), Vitamin C and other nutrients. I wrote a blog post about it

https://patrickrambling-pb.blogspot.com/2012/02/adrenal-fatigue.html

I have not edited that post, so it may seem a bit wordy. Let me know if you have any questions.

I can add more if you like which would focus on the use of adaptogens which has helped me tremendously.

*he incorporates the basics I describe with some new twists.
 

Husband of

Senior Member
Messages
318
I have a different theory: melatonin. Melatonin affects the immune system. Melatonin has been shown to play a role in autoimmunity.
 
Messages
8
Thank you for your article on adrenal fatigue. Do you think some people diagnosed with CFS actually have Addison's or Cushings? Or are those diagnosed differently. My wife who has CFS has tried many things in your article including B5 and other B vitamins, but she is very sensitive and reactive and its hard to tell which B vitamin in pure powder (to reduced additives) she may be reacting to. Regarding Magnesium-Sodium-Potassium, there was another poster on here named @crushher that wrote a book recommending ORS (specifically Normalyte) and wanted to see if you had any experience with that? Also, do you have any more info on the protocol that helped with your nail ridging. My wife has had nail issues for some time and wondering about the zeolite spray you reference in your article. I came across this from the website: https://www.resultsrna.com/acz-extra-strength/
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
@Shadow Bo

Due to some time constraints, I will answer these separately:

Cushing's and Addison's are standard diagnoses that the medical system has recognized for decades as you know. The newer research would provide a deeper understanding of adrenal activity, in other words, they are involved in resistance. Resistance would be defined as a number of things including immune resistance, metabolic resistance, toxin resistance etc.

They provide the power behind homeostasis (adjustment, adaption). I wrote a chapter on this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N0MLUGqzyUdQPdxpGutCgm-lDJ__Lr6e4gIgg65qrDQ/edit?usp=sharing
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
@Shadow Bo My apologies for the delay. I do not have experience with ORS (Normalyte) but I do have a ME friend who uses an electrolyte solution in which she has not reported any problems with, so I presume that it helpful for her.

I can get the name of the product if you like. I have used a number of forms of magnesium and the forms seemed to make a difference. Forms would include glycinate, lysinate, taurate, citrate etc. UltraMag from Source Naturals has been a good choice since it has a blending of different forms.
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
@Shadow Bo Nail ridging is one of 2 things I know -

1. Zinc deficiency

2. Protein deficiency. I lean towards #2 although zinc is involved in protein assimilation and also immune function.

Protein metabolism is a little complex, but I will try to keep it simple. Proteins are the building blocks of the body, every cell uses proteins along with other things such as minerals, fats etc. to function. Without adequate protein, then the cells won't work optimally.

Degrading of the proteins by the enzymes.

The first step in protein is the degrading of the proteins by enzymes.

a. Adequate enzymes such as HCl or pepsin which are the stomach enzymes.
b. Pancreatic enzymes also involved in protein digestion, and they are also involved in digestion of other things such as dairy (lactose), plant fibers (cellulose) and many others.
c. Some people will use digestive enzymes to help. SuperEnzymes from NOW contains both the stomach enzymes and the pancreatic enzymes.

Reassembly of the proteins

Once the proteins have been degraded by the enzymes, then they are reassembled into amino acids where they are recompiled into active substances such as immune cells, or skin cells etc.

Think of a manufacturer of say metal screws, they bring in the raw material (metal), shred the metal, then reassemble the metal into screws. Same thing with proteins, we consume the protein, the enzymes degrade the protein into usable substances (amino acids) then repackage the amino acids into usable forms.

Part of the reassemble process is the role of nutrients such as zinc, B vitamins etc.
 
Messages
8
@Shadow Bo My apologies for the delay. I do not have experience with ORS (Normalyte) but I do have a ME friend who uses an electrolyte solution in which she has not reported any problems with, so I presume that it helpful for her.

I can get the name of the product if you like. I have used a number of forms of magnesium and the forms seemed to make a difference. Forms would include glycinate, lysinate, taurate, citrate etc. UltraMag from Source Naturals has been a good choice since it has a blending of different forms.
Great, thanks! Any info you have on ORS would be helpful. I did recently purchase some Normalyte but we haven't tried it yet. It seems to have fewer additives than most, but a few that we aren't sure about. Another option I have seen is that some just drink Orange Juice with a pinch of salt. My wife tried this today and her very low blood pressure did seem to increase a bit. So we may keep trying this and supplementing with some coconut water which I believe may help with potassium (another thing commonly found in the ORS. I will look into those magnesium forms. My wife has tried many different kinds and some seem to work while others dont. She has been on citrate for some time and it does help with regularity, but she has some concerns about the citric acid potentially not being good long term.
 
Messages
8
@Shadow Bo Nail ridging is one of 2 things I know -

1. Zinc deficiency

2. Protein deficiency. I lean towards #2 although zinc is involved in protein assimilation and also immune function.

Protein metabolism is a little complex, but I will try to keep it simple. Proteins are the building blocks of the body, every cell uses proteins along with other things such as minerals, fats etc. to function. Without adequate protein, then the cells won't work optimally.

Degrading of the proteins by the enzymes.

The first step in protein is the degrading of the proteins by enzymes.

a. Adequate enzymes such as HCl or pepsin which are the stomach enzymes.
b. Pancreatic enzymes also involved in protein digestion, and they are also involved in digestion of other things such as dairy (lactose), plant fibers (cellulose) and many others.
c. Some people will use digestive enzymes to help. SuperEnzymes from NOW contains both the stomach enzymes and the pancreatic enzymes.

Reassembly of the proteins

Once the proteins have been degraded by the enzymes, then they are reassembled into amino acids where they are recompiled into active substances such as immune cells, or skin cells etc.

Think of a manufacturer of say metal screws, they bring in the raw material (metal), shred the metal, then reassemble the metal into screws. Same thing with proteins, we consume the protein, the enzymes degrade the protein into usable substances (amino acids) then repackage the amino acids into usable forms.

Part of the reassemble process is the role of nutrients such as zinc, B vitamins etc.
Great info, thanks! Question on the protein deficiency. My wife does eat a lot of protein (mostly in the form of beef, but occasionally chicken, salmon, pork, etc.). She seems to do better on meat than other things which she is more reactive to. However, you mentioned digestive enzymes may help degrading the enzymes. How would you know if your body is having a hard time degrading the enzymes as they normally should? Would you suggest someone try to take digestive enzymes to help break things done more and then try to reassemble with zinc, B vitamins, etc. Or what indicator or symptom would you look toward generally to indicate that your body may not be breaking down proteins sufficiently?
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
@Shadow Bo
I am not sure I know how to answer your question, perhaps some others will contribute. I have heard some people mention that they were tested for the pancreatic enzymes which were low. I would not be surprised that ME people would be deficient in these enzymes. The one person I heard about, saw improvement in her ME symptoms.

The gastric (stomach) are HCl (hydrochloric acid) and pepsin which are largely designed for protein digestion (the pancreatic enzymes assist in protein digestion as well and also digest other materials). There appears to be a test to measure HCl/pepsin but I do not know anyone who has done that test. I have taken multiple blends of enzymes and just recently rebought SuperEnzymes from NOW which has a blend of enzymes. I do not know any precautions in taking these but does not mean I am correct (to be on the safe side).

This link may help https://www.lispine.com/blog/10-telling-signs-you-could-have-low-stomach-acid/

Also this video may help

 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
859
Location
USA
Is she on any generalized supplements? In other words, a multimineral/vitamin that would have some of the basic minerals like zinc and basic vitamin profile.
 
Messages
10
This is my experience 100 percent. Around 7/8/9PM I start feeling really good, with an unusual amount of energy. I even find myself singing sometimes, and if music is on, I might sway/do-a-jig to the beat. I'm glad to hear that others experience this, and I am not alone. I always figured that because I rest the entire day, come nightfall, I actually have some energy to move about and get jiggy!
 

Dysfunkion

Senior Member
Messages
184
This is my experience 100 percent. Around 7/8/9PM I start feeling really good, with an unusual amount of energy. I even find myself singing sometimes, and if music is on, I might sway/do-a-jig to the beat. I'm glad to hear that others experience this, and I am not alone. I always figured that because I rest the entire day, come nightfall, I actually have some energy to move about and get jiggy!

Yup! When I finally turn music on, start singing, enjoying more catchy stuff, fantasizing about things, suddenly start planning things for no reason in my life, I'll know I'm gonna be in for a real good few hours! But I do notice more tension when this happens and if my "happy explosion time" is disturbed then I can quickly get really irritable. After the patch of hours is over I'll feel it like start to physically simmer out in my brain and I'll try to latch onto the good feelings but then the music thing will slowly stop working, my thoughts will start getting more disorganized again, and then I'll be thinking "well that's that folks!" as I slowly slip back into a mini crash like state for a while.
 
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