Advanced More Effective Nasal Irrigation (Jala Neti) Technique

[Hip]

@Hip have you thought about adding antibiotics to the saline solution like ceftriaxone?

I have not tried antibiotics, but I've previously added biofilm busters like N-acetyl cysteine (80 mg of NAC in 100 ml of saline) to the saline solution for use with jala neti (nasal irrigation). Note that NAC is acidic, so if you use too much it will irritate or sting the nasal mucous membranes.

And I have tried adding glutamine (1 gram of glutamine in 100 ml of saline). Glutamine is known as a good leaky gut healer, so I though it might be beneficial for healing any leakiness in the nasal or sinus mucous membranes.

Looking at my notes, back in 2011 I tried adding sodium bicarbonate (500 mg in 100 ml saline) to my jala neti nasal irrigation, since bicarbonate is a potent antifungal, and according to Dr Joseph Brewer, ME/CFS may be due to a mould infection in the nasal cavity. I reported a huge burst of energy the next day after this bicarbonate nasal irrigation. I am not sure why I did not repeat this. I might try this again.

Recently I've also tried adding Bacillus subtilis probiotics to the saline solution for nasal irrigation. In theory this probiotic should eliminate any Staphylococcus in the nose and sinus cavities. Although I later discovered I was using the wrong strain of this probiotic, one which has no anti-Staphylococcus effects. You have to use the more expensive MB40 or HU58 strains of Bacillus subtilis probiotics if you want to kill Staphylococcus.

 

[datadragon]

Looking at my notes, back in 2011 I tried adding sodium bicarbonate (500 mg in 100 ml saline) to my jala neti nasal irrigation, since bicarbonate is a potent antifungal, and according to Dr Joseph Brewer, ME/CFS may be due to a mould infection in the nasal cavity.

The neilmed sinus rinse packet ingredients contain USP grade sodium chloride and sodium bicarbonate (salt and baking soda). As mentioned I enhanced with a drop of the 2% Jcrows Lugols Iodine solution for an effective pair. Good luck all.

 

[Cipher]

Why ceftriaxone you might ask, it's because lab test I had showed streptococcus pneumoniae in my post nasal drip and it's sensetive to ceftriaxone.

Have you tried any streptococcus pneumoniae vaccines? There are two variants on the market; pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccines and pneumococcal conjugate vaccines.

The pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccines only protect against systemic infection, while the pneumococcal conjugate vaccines also induce mucosal immunity, which reduces mucosal colonization.

There are a lot of different pneumococcal conjugate vaccines on the market, which contain different numbers of serotypes. Prevnar 20/Apexxnar contains 20 different serotypes and is the broadest one I think.

You might find mucosal vaccines interesting also.

 

[Atlas]

Why ceftriaxone you might ask, it's because lab test I had showed streptococcus pneumoniae in my post nasal drip and it's sensetive to ceftriaxone.

Have you tried any streptococcus pneumoniae vaccines? There are two variants on the market; pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccines and pneumococcal conjugate vaccines.

Another thing to consider trying could be Streptococcus Salivarius K12 probiotics. (They are for oral health and come as losenges to be dissolved in the mouth).

They are found to inhibit Streptococcus pneumoniae.

From this study:

The K12 strain is not only effective against S. pyogenes but also inhibits the growth of such pathogens as Haemophilus influenzae, S. pneumoniae, and Moraxella catarrhalis, all of which are involved in the etiopathogenesis of acute otitis media.5 The four pathogens are responsible for almost all bacterial pharyngotonsillitis cases in children and adults.

treatment with the K12 strain reduces recurrences of bacterial pharyngotonsillitis by approximately 80% and 90%, respectively. Even if a treatment over at least 90 days is followed by a 6-month washout period the protection rates against recurrence remain high (about 60% in either case).

And this study:

Our results suggest that S. salivarius K12 inhibits pneumococcal adherence by blocking pneumococcal binding sites, although other mechanisms such as direct interference through the action of secreted molecules may also contribute.

K12 is naturally found in the nasopharynx but increasing its levels might help to rebalance things, however I'm unsure how far into the nasopharynx it will be able to effectively colonize when simply dissolving probiotic in the mouth.

Update: it's unclear if this would be safe to take this intranasally, however. This article in nature microbiology concludes that nasal Streptococcus Salivarius is pro-inflammatory and increased levels in the nose makes allergic rhinitis worse. It's unclear to me from the study if this necessarily includes all strains within the species or just a subset.

 

[Hipsman]

Have you tried any streptococcus pneumoniae vaccines?

Yes I did Markov's autovaccines against streptococcus pneumoniae and these basically put my mild PANDAS in remission - I no longer have nervous ticks.

Another thing to consider trying could be Streptococcus Salivarius K12 probiotics. (They are for oral health and come as losenges to be dissolved in the mouth).

They are found to inhibit Streptococcus pneumoniae.

Hmm, I'm not sure these will work the with the advanced nasal irrigation technique I described above

Update: it's unclear if this would be safe to take this intranasally

Yea idk

 

[Hipsman]

Also, I might use a boric acid instead of ceftriaxone as pure boric acid is sold in pharmacies. Maybe I will use 2% boric acid in saline solution. Boric acid is sold for nasal application, so should be good https://www.epothex.com/products/epothex-boric-acid-2-nasal-spray-30ml-epothex

 

[godlovesatrier]

What symptoms precipate this being advisable? Is it chronic sinus pressure? I've only had that once but just trying to understand when it's best used.

Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Hipsman]

What symptoms precipate this being advisable?

I don't know, I just try to find a treatment that works for my chronic post nasal drip.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Yeah I have only had that once lasted a few weeks, not pleasant, hope it works for you!

 

[Hipsman]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36644968/

So I tried my advanced nasal irrigation technique with 0.23% povidone-iodine in saline solution. I used about 25mL total and held my head upsidedown for 5 minutes.

This felt like a nuclear bomb, right after I finished the procedure I got a mild headache for almost 3 hours, and also spit a bit of blood with my post-nasal drip once. My sense of smell significantly worsened too, thou I feel it's slowly getting a bit better now.

It was an interesting trial to do, but unfortunately too dangerous to use as an actual treatment. I suspect other disinfectants like boric acid would also cause irritation and damage if used like this.

So disinfectants like povidone-iodine for this type of nasal irrigation are no good, unless used in very very low doses, but then I think they won't do anything in low doses, sadly. Also, it's been 3 hours since I did this and I don't notice my post-nasal drip getting better

Please let me know if anyone has ideas what I can use to kill bacteria in my sinuses, especially streptococcus aureus. I might look into this for example - https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...occus-from-the-gut-and-the-nasopharynx.88380/

 

[Hip]

It was an interesting trial to do, but unfortunately too dangerous to use as an actual treatment. I suspect other disinfectants like boric acid would also cause irritation and damage if used like this.

Yes, you want to be careful about what you place in your sinuses, as these are sensitive areas, more sensitive even than the nasal cavity.

I normally just prepare an solution for nasal irrigation by adding 900 mg of pure salt (not salt with any additives) into 100 ml of distilled water (or tap water that I have boiled for 10 minutes).

I remember once I added just 20 mg of magnesium chloride to this 100 ml, and found that this produced an unpleasant stinging sensation in the sinuses.

 

[datadragon]

Yes, you want to be careful about what you place in your sinuses, as these are sensitive areas, more sensitive even than the nasal cavity.

Agreed. I only used the premixed Neilmed sinus rinse packets in the neilmed sinus rinse bottle with distilled water, and only added 1 drop of the 2% Jcrows Lugols Iodine solution then shake. https://www.amazon.com/NeilMed-100-Sinus-Rinse-Complete/dp/B000RDZFZ0 https://www.amazon.com/J-Crows-Lugols-Iodine-Solution-Pack/dp/B001AEFM9Y/

streptococcus pneumoniae

dietary zinc deficiency increases sensitivity to Steptococcus pneumoniae infection while revealing a role for zinc as a component of host antimicrobial defences. We report that dietary zinc levels dictate the outcome of S. pneumoniae infection in a murine model. Dietary zinc restriction impacts murine tissue zinc levels with distribution post-infection altered, and S. pneumoniae virulence and infection enhanced. Although the activation and infiltration of murine phagocytic cells was not affected by zinc restriction, their efficacy of bacterial control was compromised. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31437249/ S. pneumoniae pneumonia induce serum vitamin A deficiency and long-time lung vitamin A reduction, vitamin A supplement after neonatal S. pneumoniae pneumonia inhibit the progression of asthma by altering CD4+T cell subsets. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32144294/ Vitamin A is involved in Zinc metabolism and vice versa by the way covered a few times so any reduction in Vitamin A is going to further lower zinc levels in addition to any inflammatory reason for its reduction/unavailability.

povidone-iodine (PVP-I) 7% gargle/mouthwash showed effective bactericidal activity against Streptococcus pneumoniae mentioned in this research, however that did not mean to use in the nasal cavity only potentially a gargle. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40121-018-0200-7 Possibly Cetylpyridinium Chloride in things like crest pro health clean mint mouthwash. https://vertellus.com/wp-content/up...m-Chloride-The-effective-antiseptic-agent.pdf Achillea clavennae essential oil - The oil contained eucalyptol (1,8-cineole) and camphor as major compounds.. Tee Tree Oil has 1,8 cineole also. So does Thyme oil, Eucalyptus oil, Rosemary and Sage. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15567252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5206475/ in a quick search. And your medical provider which you should be consulting with may be able to assist with further discussion of the pneumococcal conjugate vaccines and other drug treatments mentioned above and available if you are unable to see any benefit such as found in general research like that when there is no general treatment advice.

 

[Cipher]

Please let me know if anyone has ideas what I can use to kill bacteria in my sinuses, especially streptococcus aureus. I might look into this for example - https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...occus-from-the-gut-and-the-nasopharynx.88380/

These 3 mucosal vaccines are available in Ukraine and contain both Staphylococcus aureus and Streptococcus pneumoniae:

Ismigen

Staphylococcus aureus
Streptococcus pyogenes
Streptococcus oralis
Streptococcus pneumoniae (types TY1, TY2, TY3, TY5, TY8, TY47)
Klebsiella pneumoniae
Klebsiella ozaenae
Haemophilus influenzae type b
Moraxella catarrhalis

Lantigen B

Staphylococcus aureus
Klebsiella pneumoniae
Streptococcus pneumoniae
Haemophilus influenzae
Moraxella catarrhalis
Streptococcus pyogenes

Broncho-vaxom/Broncho-Munal

Haemophilus influenzae
Streptococcus pneumoniae
Klebsiella pneumoniae
Klebsiella ozaenae
Staphylococcus aureus
Streptococcus pyogenes
Streptococcus sanguinis
Moraxella catarrhalis

Ismigen and Lantigen B are both sublingual products which is according to animal studies superior to oral administration.

 

[BrightCandle]

At least for me Ismigen did not leave a lasting improvement in my sinuses. I have less blockage in my nose now but I have less of every problem now.

 

[Cipher]

At least for me Ismigen did not leave a lasting improvement in my sinuses. I have less blockage in my nose now but I have less of every problem now.

From reading your old posts (see below) it seems like you experienced improvements in your ME/CFS from both Ismigen and IRS-19. Do you mean with "I have less blockage in my nose now but I have less of every problem now" that they've given you lasting improvements with both nasal congestion and your ME/CFS?

Short update. Its been roughtly 3 weeks or so after the first round of Ismigen and while I feel notably improved and can do activities over the past couple of weeks the area around my eyes has darkened a little more than usual. I have had panda eyes for years but its a bit more noticeable now. High leukocytes appearing in the urine but nothing else of note.

Looks like to me my body is actually fighting the UTI/Kidney infection, that tends to be the reason why you get that urine response and darkened eyes in my case are more than likely the bacterial toxins. Can't help but think that is probably increasing the amount of toxins being put into me. Not too concerned but wanted to give a quick update since this treatment has resulted in this specific symptom.

Quite a long time ago now I ordered 3 different products from the commercial list and they took many months to arrive. Last week I started with the IRS 19 (https://otc-online-store.com/irs-19-spray-buy-online) and its one I selected because it contains Staphylococcus aureus lysate which is one of the 3 bacteria in my urine I positively identified and its actually a pretty good match for the CBIS top list of common baddies otherwise. Just like with Ismigen I initially felt a bit rough after a couple of days, I got infected snot and inflammation in my nose from it but after about a week it turned and I started feeling a bit improved. I was spending about 18hours a day in bed and now I am just sleeping and spending my whole day upright, my orthostatic intolerance is very reduced and I am feeling more energetic each day.

 

[Atlas]

Please let me know if anyone has ideas what I can use to kill bacteria in my sinuses

Btw, this may not on its own permanently resolve the issue, but if you want a more effective standard nasal irrigation solution, you can add xylitol and baking soda to the salt.

Xylitol inhibits S. Aureus biofilm, and also makes the salt solution much less irritating. There are studies which conclude irrigation with xylitol is more effective too than salt alone.

When I had bad nasal congestion I used this formula and it really cleared up my nose nicely for the rest of the day. I eventually stopped doing it when my ME became too severe to have energy to do it all the time. But also the Markov staph vaccine seems to have cleared up my nose somewhat now.

The formula I based on the ratio in Xlear Nasal Irrigation solution, which you can buy in sachets but much cheaper to make yourself.


This is the formula (by weight):
---------------------

8 parts Xylitol
3 parts Salt
1 part Baking Soda

---------------------

Mix it all up. Then:

Serving size: 6g (1/2 Tbsp) per 300ml bottle/neti pot


I made a full glass jar of it at once which would last over a month.

I found irrigation with salt alone was much more irritating to my nose than this formula, which just felt completely neutral — it does not sting at all.

 

[BrightCandle]

From reading your old posts (see below) it seems like you experienced improvements in your ME/CFS from both Ismigen and IRS-19. Do you mean with "I have less blockage in my nose now but I have less of every problem now" that they've given you lasting improvements with both nasal congestion and your ME/CFS?

The problem is I have gotten worse since. So the effect is only temporary unfortunately.

 

[Hipsman]

These 3 mucosal vaccines are available in Ukraine and contain both Staphylococcus aureus and Streptococcus pneumoniae:

Thanks for the suggestion, I already tried the russian staph vaccine and the Markov's staph vaccine, both did nothing, unfortunately, after the vaccine courses staphylococcus aureus was still caltured in my nasal swabs.

 

[Hipsman]

@Cipher but it's interesting there are more vaccines, they are in tablets it seems, I wonder if I could use them Intranasally

 

[perchance dreamer]

I've recently had a nasal staph infection, which responded very well to swabs of Mupirocin ointment applied in my nose and sinus irrigation rinses that include a compounded Tobramycin, in addition to my usual Xlear packet.