AdB12 weird response?

[caledonia]

@caledonia @stridor
I checked my multi and nothing contraindicated in it like ALA.

I also get overly revved up on adenosyl if I take too much. When I try decreasing by 1,000mcg, then I feel more tired. It took me over half a year to titrate up to 3.000 mcg/day. I could try experimenting with lowering it again

I'm glad your multi passes muster.

lol - I'm taking 4mcg adenosyl a day. I'm doing liquid sublinguals which you only need to hold for 20-30 seconds so that bypasses the teeth issue. My tongue can feel tender if I hold it for longer than that.

Can you describe in more detail what kind of moods swings I should be watching for, and what other symptoms I should watch for as far as symptoms that I'm not tolerating methyl?

Not exactly bipolar, but going between anxiety/panic and depression. The depression could be bad enough to make you suicidal. It could occur with a dose as low as 50mcg or even less.

A stress/anxiety reaction in general could mean that you're having a transsulfuration/CBS issue and need to address that. I had to do this. I wasn't tolerating B12 at all. Now I can take 20mcg methyl and 4mcg adenosyl per day.

Also the diarrhea continues to be worse and now having bad gas too, with no change to diet. As mentioned before, those symptoms dissipated after I increased methyl shots to 300mcg before, but then the brain fog and getting flustered when stressed got worse. (That's why some of it feels like a healing reaction.) So how to choose between less diarrhea/more brain issues or vice versa?

As I mentioned before, and Stridor mentioned, it could be the vit. C. Although I'm not sure why extra B12 would be helpful unless it takes vit. C to process it.

P.S. I had never heard of PEM before so I googled it. Can you recommend any websites?

Websites to describe what it is, or how to deal with it, or???

The term comes from the Canadian Consensus Criteria for ME/CFS. It's also called PENE or post exertion neuroimmune exhaustion in the International Consensus Criteria for ME.

 

[jnwp]

Interesting thread. It seems Adb12 may be a lot more potent than some expect. I am curious to hear from those who have had reactions. I am positive that I reacted to it the first time I took it, but it was harmless enough - some swelling and itching on my cuticles that went away. My lip swelled up once, too - histamine, I guess? Anyone else run into this?

I wrote it off as start-up/detox (ditto what I thought was food poisoning) and pressed forward, eventually taking a really high dose - 4mg/day against just 1mg of MB12. I think that may have been a big mistake. Does anyone currently, or did you in the past, take ADB12 in a higher dose than MB12? How's it worked out?

 

[surfbaby]

Interesting thread. It seems Adb12 may be a lot more potent than some expect. I am curious to hear from those who have had reactions. I am positive that I reacted to it the first time I took it, but it was harmless enough - some swelling and itching on my cuticles that went away. My lip swelled up once, too - histamine, I guess? Anyone else run into this?

I wrote it off as start-up/detox (ditto what I thought was food poisoning) and pressed forward, eventually taking a really high dose - 4mg/day against just 1mg of MB12. I think that may have been a big mistake. Does anyone currently, or did you in the past, take ADB12 in a higher dose than MB12? How's it worked out?

Hi @jnwp
I am very sensitive to ADB12, and many others are too. After 16 months on @Freddd 's Protocol, I'm still not entirely certain of my dosage and react when I take too much. I usually feel overly jittery and get shortness of breath when I take too much. I can only tolerate taking it at night when I'm more tired, and feel really sick when I try to take it in the daytime, even after a year of taking it. It is very potent and some people have to titrate it up slowly from a dose as small as a crumb. That's what I had to do. It took me over 6 months to go from a crumb to 2,000mcg to 3,000mcg per day. Others like @stridor can nibble on it throughout the day, and do well on higher doses. For some reason I can only tolerate the Source Naturals ADB12 which doesn't seem as strong as the Anabol Naturals.

Some people take it daily like me, and some like Freddd take 1 big dose weekly, instead of one of their MB12 doses. See the link to ahmo's Guide to Freddd's Protocol below for more details. I think most people take ADB12 in a lower dose than MB12. When I got up to 2,000mcg-3,000mcg/day of ADB12 I was taking 10,000mcg/day of MB12. While there are no exact ratios in this protocol, I thought I once read a suggested minimum ratio of ADB12 to MB12, but I can't find it now.

These 2 guides helped me a lot:

Here is a link to @ahmo 's Guide to Freddd's Protocol: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/a-guide-to-freddds-protocol.1618/
and sheclimber's guide:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-understanding-of-freddds-protocol.1697/

 

[surfbaby]

@surfbaby
You and I are on different paths when it comes to B12 and methylation. Different trajectory as well since I had all the mercury removed and 100 rounds completed before I started mfolate and mB12. Who knows what my reaction would have been if I had figured out my B12 problem before Hg-tox?

Some of the mood swings associated with COMT can be quite pronounced. And if someone has a history of Bipolar Disorder and prone to skewed judgment, they may need help.

Cutler warns people away from mB12 if they have Bipolar and by heeding this advice I was sick for months longer than necessary and no doubt burned a few neurons. Horrible months.... But, my reaction shows that allowances have to be made for individual response. I took to B12 like a fish to water.

I have never had a reaction to either adenosyl or methylB12....unless the dose was too low. Now, folate is another story and until I added the second needle I was able to experience what I called a "methyl block". Not really sure about that but like I said all I needed was more B12.

Freddd said in a post once that it wasn't methyl block since I was taking mB12. Whatever it was, it responded to niacin and went away when I increased my dose of mB12.

Cutler and Freddd are very bright guys and I shutter to think of where I would be now without them. But try as they might they will not be 100% right. for 100% of people, 100% of the time.

At my peak, I was taking 2 needles + 45 mg sublingual of mB12 and 8.6 mg of adenosylcobalamin daily. This is still well shy of anything that Freddd was doing and while he isn't on my path either, he was the only person I could find at the time that I related to at all.

The B vitamins were added to the morning shot of mB12 and the afternoon was just 1 mg B12. One of these days I will try to cut back again. There has been a shift in my whole metabolism associated with adding low-dose naltrexone,

I have put on 8 much needed pounds of mostly muscle. Muscle tone has improved as well. I still tire too quickly. I have a hard time judging this. I led a Bipolar life and either had more energy than anyone else in the room or was unable to get up off the couch. I don't know what is normal for a guy my age.

I do know that there are people running marathons at 62 and I know that I will not be doing anything like that anytime soon. 25 min treadmill followed by 25 min on the weight machine is where I am at. There will be new tires and tubes on my bike this spring. It hasn't been ridden since 2007. Loss of interest in my bike might have been one of the first signs that my energy levels were changing.

LDN so far has not allowed me to bring foods back which was my hope.

Too much Vit C can contribute to diarrhea. I doubt that you can get around this other than by making your own Liposomal vitamin C. It is cheap and easy. Here is my recipe. There are others.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/how-to-make-liposomal-vitamin-c.19919/#post-412529

If you are Hg-tox you will benefit from high doses of C. Think in the 6-8 gms and higher range. Remember that the great apes consume something like 4 or 6 gms daily and they don't have amalgam fillings. When I was at my sickest Vit C was crucial.

Hi @stridor
It has been almost 2 years since I've posted. It's been a rough road with brain fog from the methylB12 shots I started back in 10/2016 when I switched from sublingual. I've tried every dose of methylB12 shots & various doses of accompanying methylfolate, and still unable to find that sweet spot. I did figure out recently that the brain fog is better with much lower doses like 100-200 mcg per day. However then the fatigue, vision, IBS & other things are worse. I also finally figured out that I needed a higher dose of methylfolate in ratio to methylB12 than I was taking.

I just wondered if you're still here and how you're doing. My uveitis (eye disease) keeps coming back, and between that & the brain fog, that's why I haven't been posting. I thought I'd go it alone for awhile, but that's not working well. I probably shouldn't be straining my eyes, but I can't figure this out alone. @ahmo once gave me tips on how & where to post for current threads, but I can't remember. I never was good at navigating this site. I'm going to try to find her posts to me, as my eyes allow.

You, @ahmo & @caledonia were the kindest to me. I would love to hear from all 3 of you for some much needed support before embarking on this website again! My beloved M.D. of over 30 yrs is retiring in Jan or early Feb! I don't know how difficult it will be to find a new doctor willing to prescribe my methylB12 shots & help me order hair analysis test on this island. I wanted to order the Doctor's Data with Minerals that @caledonia once recommended ASAP so I can get results before he retires. However her Blog Post is now completely blank & I can't find any of the many Resources she once listed including hair analysis, DNA interpreting, Cutler resources, etc (I think they were on her Blog). I noticed she hasn't posted anything since July 2018, so I hope she is ok & hasn't left the site.

I'm having problems with adenosylB12 again now too, since Source Naturals changed their tablets from Sublingual to Biolingual. Even tho the ingredients are the same, they are shiny now & not matte, and even a crumb of the new one gave me terrible joint pain, whereas before the only side effect I had was jitteriness & over-reactive brain if I took too much. I tried Anabol Naturals & got so sick all day from even putting a crumb in my mouth for a few seconds. After several attempts, I just can't do that one. I was thinking about trying Seeking Health adenoosylB12, the only other one I could find without folic acid, but it has xylitol which has bothered me before. That only leaves Country Life, but there's the folic acid. After several weeks of no adenosylB12 and increased fatigue, maybe it's better than nothing! Since I'm not MTHFR, and my dose is so small, maybe it won't be so bad.

If you have any info on the best hair analysis to do, I would really appreciate hearing from you, @ahmo or @caledonia before it's too late to get it done & get results back before my doctor retires. Aloha from Hawaii!

 

[stridor]

@surfbaby I am so sorry to hear that you are still struggling with things. Remember that methylation was only one part of the puzzle that I had to assemble. Brain-fog can be methylation, liver, ammonia or thiol, gut or adrenal. It can also be caused by Stealth Infections.

I have been on hydrocortisone for years as my adrenals did not survive the mercury poisoning. A recent increase to Addisson´s doses has helped with mental clarity.

My ongoing SIBO means that fog will never be totally gone but what I have now is rarely brought to my attention. This in comparison to 2011 when I was having problems following conversation. It does not interfere with my enjoyment of life. I don´t have a colon and the SIBO is going nowhere.

I highly recommend that you follow through with the hair testing. The test is from Dr´s Data, hopefully someone else can provide more information. You could join the Cutler facebook group and get the information there. I never did a hair test, I did the ill-recommended Challenge test instead.

Mercury skews the immune system and some of us end up with infections. I had mycoplasma and HHV-6. Put this in the back of your mind for now. You can not move against infections until the immune system is back on line and that can not happen if there is a toxin floating around.

 

[Freddd]

I would like to update people on a number of things. I'm going to start with everybody's favorite, mercury. There was a recent study of using selenium to neutralize mercury. THe researchers said basically that it was amazing to watch the selenium do away with mercury toxicity symptoms "before your eyes". They had no idea that in this variation on refeeding syndrome (also includes "FMS, CFS, MCS, hypersensitivity, "chronic pain syndrome" and all sorts of related chronic conditions that keep the pressure on the body to heal indefinitely) can react so quickly. It cuts through all the BS around mercury.

Looking at this whole business as a refeeding syndrome,the solution is very much simpler becasue it simplifies the the micronutrients. The problem with micro nutrients that they are usually each at the end of a cell making line so several of them can have mixed symptoms. Each cell fails for 1 reason and one group of symptoms. With partial methylation, enough cells are getting made that micronutrient fails at the same time as each other and methylation fails as well. If a person gets to the point where there are not any folate/MeCbl fails, then all the micronutrient fails become obvious and also certain types of "fail" with CyCbl, HyCbl and AdoCbl. If these are used by injection or sublingual, some people can't convert them to MeCbl on entry to cell,then they (AdoCbl,CyCbl and HyCbl) cause a methyltrap fail,in small amounts,as acne like lesions or more. Some of us found that too much and/or too often caused "Jekyll-Hyde potion type response " (Professor Bunsen Honeydew, puppets). I found that one 10mg sublabial once a week and 50mg for 5 hours or so once a month for CNS worked very well and no problems. My daughter needed AdoCbl every day. People are different. How you function on cobalamins and folates makes all the differences. And it is important to get that in balance with each other and especially the deadlock quartet becasue of the way they work in different compartments, having both healing and deficiency symptoms right next door in different compartments.

Also I found it necessary to add all the micronutrients. I had cell making responses from half oif them, the other half just assuming that they are equally hard to absorb from food or becasue of gut problems that I shpoiuld take all, and that appears to be helping..

Then I come back to those things never expected. I have started getting a widespread non-methylation set of symptoms. It turns out the Deplin type methylfolate has suddenly ceased being effective. Quatrefolic type works well, I use it for 2 days and suddenly the Deplin type are good for 3 months again. It works just the opposite way too. If I am using the Quatrefolic, it wears out and the Deplin type revives it in too days. The same thing happens with l-carnitine, I was going along fine with L-carnitine fumarate. Suddenly it stopped working and those symptoms started coming back,. I tried a change to L-C tartrate and it has sparked since. It changed suddenly when my copper serum level got above a certain low level These are things that can happen to you.