Active B12 Protocol Basics

[NoMoTime]

Hello

A month ago I started Freddd's methylation protocol and it worked well for a week and then I went back to my previous normal. I stopped taking supps after getting a ton of folate deficency symptoms and realizing I don't have enough folate at hand to get methylation started.

Here is more info:
-MCV went from 97,9 to 99,5 (normal range is 83-97,2) from april to november last year. That's the last time I had MCV checked
-Had been using 2-4 scoops of whey per day for 2 years up until 3 weeks ago. Switched to pea protein shortly after starting methylation protocol because Freddd recommends not using whey.
-Supplements I have are Country life mB12, Source Naturals adB12 and Solgar's Metafolin, Jarrow B-right complex, fish oil and C,D and E vitamins and niacin. When ordering more folate I ordered 2 bottles of Life extension's 5mg methylfolate because it's cheaper and it seems like I'm going to need a lot of folate.
-The day before I started mb12 I took B complex. Next day I woke up with runny nose which is a symptom of folate deficency but I ignored it. Took 1/4 of mB12 and haven't experience mental clarity like some people do but I got diarrhea. Next day I took mb12 and 1 metafolin spread through 4 doses. In a couple of days I was feeling FANTASTIC. For the first time in a long time I was singing my favourite songs out loud, I was more sociable and I got more done in 3 days than what I usually get done in a week. And it was effortless. In a week that feel good faded away and I was back to being tired/depressed/fatigued. That's I figured I should up the dosage on something. When I tried taking 1/2 of mb12 I got diarrhea within 20 minutes of taking it so I figured it's the folate. I increased my dosage to 2400 mcg a day but nothing changed. I was still fatigued and had folate deficency symptoms. It seems to me like I'm going to need huge doses of methylfolate I only have 1 bottle of metafolin so I decided to stop doing the protocol until my new order arrives.
-During all this time I haven't had any potassium deficency symptoms.
-I've had been having sleeping issues for half a year. I would wake up after 3 hours of sleep and then I couldn't fall asleep again. I would be up for few hours and then I could fall asleep again. I tried prescription pills and melatonin which used to help before but they didn't affect me during this period. Sleep issues seem to be gone now. If I wake up during the night I can go back to sleep easly now. This could be related to using b12.

My question is - how do I start methylation the right way with these conditions?

I've read a lot of posts and different guides but I'm still confused. I can't tolerate 1/2 of mb12 so I guess 1/4 of a pill should be my b12 dosage. Dont really know about methylfolate... Should I increase methylfolate slowly or start taking big doses right away to avoid paradoxical folate deficency? Or just continue taking 1/4 of mb12 and 2400mcg of methylfolate and just hope it starts working?

 

[Eastman]

@NoMoTime

caledonia advises Start Low and Go Slow and I tend to agree. Since folate deficiency appears to be your main startup problem, I suggest slowing raising that until your deficiency symptoms go away.

The fact that you initially felt better on the methylation protocol but went back to your previous condition suggests that other cofactors may be depleted. You may want to consider adding them if your improvement stalls.

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

My question is - how do I start methylation the right way with these conditions?

I've read a lot of posts and different guides but I'm still confused. I can't tolerate 1/2 of mb12 so I guess 1/4 of a pill should be my b12 dosage. Dont really know about methylfolate... Should I increase methylfolate slowly or start taking big doses right away to avoid paradoxical folate deficency? Or just continue taking 1/4 of mb12 and 2400mcg of methylfolate and just hope it starts working?

Maybe try a different protocol? A protocol written by a naturopath, Dr. Ben Lynch:
http://mthfr.net/mthfr-c677t-mutation-basic-protocol/2012/02/24/

 

[NoMoTime]

@Eastman
I read in a lot of posts here that mb12 shouldn't be lower than methylfolate (to avoid methyl trapping I guess). If I start slow with both but my methylfolate requirement turns out to be let's say 7,5mg, does that mean I should also increase mb12 to 7,5mg or more? But then I wouldn't be going slow... This is all very confusing and there's a lot of contradicting info so I was looking for more specific answers with the dosages.

What other cofactors should I consider?

@CFS_for_19_years
Cool. I already have most supplements he recommends so I will try it out if freddd's protocol doesn't work for me after I try bigger doses of methylfolate.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Hi I can only post my experience which is from a moderate sufferer perspective (can gently walk 20 min most days but can't really lift or carry anything) . I would advise low and slow and track symptoms on an app or spreadsheet. I found a lot of the symptoms of low folate were the same as low b12 and some of the low folate were like low potassium (e.g waves of nausea/ reflux type symptoms). I use itchy skin and heart palpitations as my sign for low potassium but you may be different.

I worked my way up to 10 mg of b12 sublingual per day over 6 months and slowly increased methyl folate to 3x400mcg. I experienced the half life of methyl folate that Fredd was talking about so splitting the doses was important for me. I have subsequently dropped the sublingual b12 and moved to subdermal b12 oil which works much better. B12 is the key for me and I have avoided going too high in the folate but this isn't the same for everyone.

Regarding other co factors, I take B right b complex, magnesium (2x375mg magnesium oxide plus 20 sprays of magnesium chloride sub dermal "oil"), multivitamin and mineral, phosphatidyl serine, extra vitamin c, vitamin d, Acetyl l carnitine (2x1000mg) extra selenium, creatine (reduces burden on methylation) d ribose. I also eat 3 eggs a day for the choline and eat a moderated carb diet (20% of calories carb and get 50% of my calories from fat).

I don't take methionine or tmg but I do reduce burden on methylation with the creatine, which also helps a bit with strength stamina. The d ribose is for mitochondria support. I also need to take potassium gluconate to control the heart palpitations (3x200g) although I would advise only take these if you need them. There is no way I would tolerate the large amount of methyl folate that Fredd and others need so I may not be the best person to ask here.

Hope that helps a bit

 

[Eastman]

@Eastman
I read in a lot of posts here that mb12 shouldn't be lower than methylfolate (to avoid methyl trapping I guess). If I start slow with both but my methylfolate requirement turns out to be let's say 7,5mg, does that mean I should also increase mb12 to 7,5mg or more? But then I wouldn't be going slow... This is all very confusing and there's a lot of contradicting info so I was looking for more specific answers with the dosages.

The recommendation to keep mB12 no lower than methylfolate was by richvank. Freddd did not agree with it. You can read their debate here.

I myself take more methylfolate than mB12, as do, I believe, some other members here. I am mainly guided by symptoms.

What other cofactors should I consider?

Freddd listed a few in the opening post of this thread, as does the Ben Lynch article that CFS_for_19_years linked to.

Incidentally, some people find that taking vitamin B2 reduces their need for methylfolate.

 

[NoMoTime]

Started today again with only 1/8 mb12 and 800mcg of methylfolate divided in 4 doses. Feeling decent but my scap started itching again. Will take supps at these dosages for few days and see what happens.

@arewenearlythereyet
Thanks for sharing your experience! You are using some cofactors which I haven't even heard of before so I'll add some of them later on if I can't get methylation started with this trial, satrting with carnitine and magnesium.

It's strange to hear that creatine is helping you with methylation. I found creatine to be probably the only supplement that had ever made any noticable difference in my muscle gains. I still have 0,5kg bag of creatine left but I'm kinda scared of using it because creatine allegedly increases DHT which causes balding and I lost way too much hair during last year.

@Eastman
Thanks for the link to the debate. There's a lot of contradicting info on the forum and someone who is new to this will get confused easily.

B2 does seem to be an important cofactor for many people in that B2 I love you! megathread. I read there that vit C and D can deplete B2 so I'll stop taking them. It's not like they were making any difference anyway.

 

[Basilico]

I know that in general Jarrow is a good company, but my experience is that when I get low on B12 because I haven't taken it in a while, I tend to get a specific kind of spasm in my sleep. When I take either the Ben Lynch brand or the Solgar brand of methylB12, it goes away pretty immediately, but taking the Jarrow methylB12 never did anything, which led me to believe that Jarrow is less effective (I always keep it under my tongue for a minimum of 30 minutes).

Additionally, I had been not taking Vit E because I could not find one that didn't contain Soybean oil, which I'm just not willing to ingest. I just recently found a new Vit E that seems super cool, and the ingredients are not only soy free but seems overall pretty allergy friendly (other ingredients are gelatin and rice powder). It's also the Gamma form (the most important one!) In case anyone is interested it's by BoostCeuticals: https://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-400IU-Capsules-Mixed-Tocopherols/dp/B01IMTUZF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488251235&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=vitamin e gamma&psc=1

I was originally using the Ben Lynch Seeking Health methylB12, but I switched to Solgar, mainly for price. Anyone notice a difference in efficacy between these (or other) brands?

 

[roxie60]

Just ordered PURE Encaps Hydroxy/Adeno B12. Cyano and Methy do nothinbg for me except increased levels on labs. Hope it makes a difference. I think my genes maybe the reason I have felt no difference with Cyano and Methyl. Anyone try Hdroxy/Adeno version of B12 and see any results?

 

[garyfritz]

I use the B12 Oils products. I've used pure-methyl, methyl/adeno, and hydroxy/methyl. b12oils.com doesn't have a hydroxy/adenosyl so I haven't tried that.

FOR ME,

• Pure-methyl helps, but does not control all symptoms. Similar with methyl sublinguals.
• Similar with hydroxy/methyl. I ran out of adenosyl/methyl and I've been using some hydroxy/methyl. It helps but I don't sleep as well at night, often waking at 3-4am with some agitation. 1mg methyl sublingual seems to help that so I can go back to sleep.
• Adenosyl/methyl works the best for me. 2 shots of oil at bedtime, along with lots of antioxidants and other support (C, E, magnesium, zinc) keeps my symptoms 99% controlled. I sleep soundly through the night.

I believe my "B12 symptoms" are actually created by mercury toxicity -- a number of clues suggest this. People with different issues will probably have different results.

 

[Kathevans]

After long experimentation and consultation with Greg of B12 Oils, I gradually titrated cofactors such as molybdenum and selenium and continued to get B2 on board. Then titrated up methyl B12 and switched to the oils, which have worked well for me for at least 8 months now. But it is the Adenosyl I'm finding is the most help currently--for widespread pain of muscles and tendons. Still with the sublingual for the moment, which I'm not fond of--6-12,000mcg in 2-4 Seeking Health's product. I'm looking forward to switching over to theAdeno/Methyl Oil which I have on hand.

LIke you,Gary, I've become dismayed to uncover mercury toxicity that may be contributing to my issues. I had the last of my amalgam fillings out last month only to discover that more amalgam may have been left behind in root canals, of which I have 3, and under crowns (lots more!). I did manage to find a biological dentist n my area, but the process will be long and very expensive. I am going to do one quadrant of my mouth next month at a cost of $7,000. Slow but steady, I guess.

I am getting more sleep at night, but it's still up and down with a usual early morning dose of supplements that help me get another2-3 hours before I start my day.

OH, and btw, when I need to top up B12 to help with symptoms, I still find the Enzmatic B12 sublingual the most effective, though I like the Country Life as well--even though they dissolve very fast.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

After long experimentation and consultation with Greg of B12 Oils, I gradually titrated cofactors such as molybdenum and selenium and continued to get B2 on board. Then titrated up methyl B12 and switched to the oils, which have worked well for me for at least 8 months now. But it is the Adenosyl I'm finding is the most help currently--for widespread pain of muscles and tendons. Still with the sublingual for the moment, which I'm not fond of--6-12,000mcg in 2-4 Seeking Health's product. I'm looking forward to switching over to theAdeno/Methyl Oil which I have on hand.

LIke you,Gary, I've become dismayed to uncover mercury toxicity that may be contributing to my issues. I had the last of my amalgam fillings out last month only to discover that more amalgam may have been left behind in root canals, of which I have 3, and under crowns (lots more!). I did manage to find a biological dentist n my area, but the process will be long and very expensive. I am going to do one quadrant of my mouth next month at a cost of $7,000. Slow but steady, I guess.

I am getting more sleep at night, but it's still up and down with a usual early morning dose of supplements that help me get another2-3 hours before I start my day.

OH, and btw, when I need to top up B12 to help with symptoms, I still find the Enzmatic B12 sublingual the most effective, though I like the Country Life as well--even though they dissolve very fast.

hi @Kathevans

Glad to hear that you are making progress. If it's ok can I ask what regime did you end up with on the b2? I take 3 doses per day. I would be interested to hear what amounts and at what frequency you have ended up with. I also take the country life adenosyl sublingual so I'm interested to hear how you go with the oil. I'm thinking of switching one of my hydroxyl/methyl doses with the methyl/adenosyl....bit unsure when the best time of day or frequency to try though. I currently take one sublingual 1-2 times per week. Also thank you for your postings to date. They have been really helpful to get me on to the oils in the first place along with those from @garyfritz @Athene* and @Johnmac

 

[Kathevans]

I'm taking 25mg of B2 3x/day, but also get another 20 mg, or 25 in my Seeking Health B-Minus complex,which I divide and take 2x/day.Adding cofactors--150 of moly, 200 selenium (I was already taking 200mcg of iodine)--enabled me to raise Folate levels from a previous high of about 1600 to about 3600mcg. And Adenosyl seemed to increase it further, though, honestly, I'm still not sure where this will end up. My reactions to the Adenosyl are still fluctuating, which I know has to do with the deficiency, so I'm taking it slow...as I have everything.

As you mentined above, deficiency symptoms are often the same for more than one supplement, and I've come to think of this as Fred's refeeding syndrome. (Although I've always needed the base of B12). As I increased the B2, for example, it took care of most symptoms until it didn't. I was once up to about 150mg of B2, then, after getting other things on board, titrated back down. For me this has been a continuing puzzle looking for a solution!

Like you @arewenearlythereyet, I can usually walk just fine (though lack of sleep exhaustion can limit what I do) but holding things causes pain. I get help if I can with my groceries. The damage that the Adeno is revealing is widespread. Of course, I felt it along the way, but specific areas faded...from neck and shoulder blade pain, to hip and thigh, to Achilles' tendon.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

I'm taking 25mg of B2 3x/day, but also get another 20 mg, or 25 in my Seeking Health B-Minus complex,which I divide and take 2x/day.Adding cofactors--150 of moly, 200 selenium (I was already taking 200mcg of iodine)--enabled me to raise Folate levels from a previous high of about 1600 to about 3600mcg. And Adenosyl seemed to increase it further, though, honestly, I'm still not sure where this will end up. My reactions to the Adenosyl are still fluctuating, which I know has to do with the deficiency, so I'm taking it slow...as I have everything.

As you mentined above, deficiency symptoms are often the same for more than one supplement, and I've come to think of this as Fred's refeeding syndrome. (Although I've always needed the base of B12). As I increased the B2, for example, it took care of most symptoms until it didn't. I was once up to about 150mg of B2, then, after getting other things on board, titrated back down. For me this has been a continuing puzzle looking for a solution!

Like you @arewenearlythereyet, I can usually walk just fine (though lack of sleep exhaustion can limit what I do) but holding things causes pain. I get help if I can with my groceries. The damage that the Adeno is revealing is widespread. Of course, I felt it along the way, but specific areas faded...from neck and shoulder blade pain, to hip and thigh, to Achilles' tendon.

Thanks @Kathevans that's really helpful. I think I need to spread my b2 to 4 doses (one of mine is also in a multivitamin). I definitely notice the folate dropping off now that I've upped the b12 (blurry vision) so I might do the same with this along with the adeno.

The adeno is definitely noticeable when I take it ...makes me really sleepy and relaxes tired muscles. I'm wondering also if I can mange some of the pains in the leg and shoulders with Adeno . I'm going to take the plunge and add it in, probably with my night time dose see what happens once I've sorted my b2. I'll leave upping the folate until I know how the others work...but will probably have to squeeze another dose in somewhere ...although I'm running out space in my pill dispenser!

 

[Kathevans]

Just hope I made clear that Folate needs seemed to go up with the addition of more Adenosyl. I'm now taking 4800mcg/day. But as I said, these numbers are going up and down--it's one of the reasons I've stayed off the forum by and large. Balancing things out is another challenge in itself. At least for me!

 

[garyfritz]

LIke you,Gary, I've become dismayed to uncover mercury toxicity that may be contributing to my issues. I had the last of my amalgam fillings out last month only to discover that more amalgam may have been left behind in root canals, of which I have 3, and under crowns (lots more!). I did manage to find a biological dentist n my area, but the process will be long and very expensive. I am going to do one quadrant of my mouth next month at a cost of $7,000. Slow but steady, I guess.

I think most of us in the US, and many in other countries, have some level of mercury poisoning. Amalgams, vaccines, seafood, fallout from coal plants, ... we have many sources, and for some of us the body can't keep up with it. Mercury is a wicked-nasty neurotoxin and it screws up almost every system in the body.

Yes if you have amalgam left in RCs or under crowns, you still have a problem. The Andy Cutler folks say the tiniest crumb of amalgam can totally mess up chelation. The mercury in a single filling is more than enough to kill you, and apparently a small bit of amalgam is more than enough to cause problems. The chelators will pull mercury out of the amalgam, even if it's under a composite filling or crown, so you still have a steady flow of Hg entering your body -- which means you can chelate for a long time and not get better, or even get worse.

Cutler says virtually all people experience a "dump phase" starting about 6-8 months after amalgam removal. Your body is loaded full of Hg in the organs, brain, etc, and when you remove all the amalgams, you stop the steady influx of Hg into your system. Once your body & chelators start to clear the Hg out, your serum levels drop to a level where a homeostatis mechanism kicks in so your organs start unloading their Hg into your bloodstream. This movement of Hg causes some amount of symptom relapse for a few months until you clear out more. Many people have gone 9-12 months without experiencing the dump -- but then they go back to have more x-rays, and their dentist discovers a bit of missed amalgam. They remove that, and THEN 6-8 months later they hit the dump. So it really is necessary to get ALL the amalgams out if you want to stop the toxicity, and especially before you start chelating.

I'm getting my first amalgams out on Monday. Over the next few months I'll get them all (8) out, including at least one tooth that will require a crown. I also have one crowned root-canal molar. I don't know if there is amalgam under the crown, and it's gold so x-rays can't penetrate. But bio dentists generally advise strongly against RCs anyway. One dentist helps out a lot on the ACC group on FB, and she says she would not have an RC in her mouth. She says they are magnets for infection and inflammation, and cause other health problems. My RC has always been sensitive (I've had it about 15 years) and I figure it's probably at least inflamed. So I'm going to get it extracted too. And then I'll be clear to start chelating.

 

[Kathevans]

@garyfritz Yep, that sounds about it. Even the crowned root canals out. As I say, I've been luck to have a biological dentist about an hour away in Groton, MA, who will do the work, albeit at no small cost. Actually the cost is the same as it would be to have a failed crown or root canal replaced by any other dentist, so that's not all that bad. It's just that all my back teeth either have crowns or root canals. I'm lucky, I'm told, in that in each quadrant I have enough teeth left so I can have bridge work where the root canals will be removed. but as I say, this is going to take a while. I'll keep you informed...I'm most traumatized by the thought of sitting in the dentist's chair for 3 hours and no nitric oxide--which they give to others for mild sedation--because it wipes out B12 levels! Just what we're trying to improve!!

I have no plans to chelate while the amalgam work is in my mouth. Just the basic four supports of Vit C, E, and those other two, which slip my mind for the moment!! Oh, yes, magnesium and zinc. I guess I'm taking all of these even now, have been for a long time, though my C levels may need to go up.

 

[garyfritz]

Yes, my RC has a good tooth on one side, but the other side is the tooth requiring a crown. It's already in bad shape (hence the crown) so I don't think a bridge is an option. I'm planning to get a zirconium implant. Very pricey but hopefully it will restore my chewing ability "like new." And it won't be infected/inflamed like the RC.

I won't use NO either, for the reason you mentioned. NO is a bad idea for B12-challenged people. Honestly though, I've had NO before (years ago) and I didn't notice that much benefit from it. I found "the chair" just as traumatizing with or without it.

 

[Kathevans]

Good luck, Gary! I'll be waiting to see how it all goes...and watch out that zinc supplementation doesn't lead to copper deficiency. My alternadoc wants me to take at least 1 mg copper daily to balance the 22mg of zinc I take.

 

[keenly]

Make sure you have B2, Iodine, Molybdenium, Selenium and Lithium on board BEFORE adding B12.