Active B12 Protocol Basics

[Nikki7]

From Freddd's info I fit into this category...
4. Severe abnormal fatigue. Muscles don’t repair well. Severe muscle pains of many types. No exercise tolerance. Exercise doesn’t increase muscle or mitochondria increase. Edema, congestive heart failure. MeCbl & AdoCbl 1000mcg absorbed & L-Carnitine Fumarate & L-methylfolate 3200+mcg will start correcting and titrate to sufficiency, 1000mcg diffusion level, greater insufficiency of all factors before treatment.

I am super confused. I started his basic protocol...should I be trying to just take what it says here? I'm much higher on the MeCbl and AdoCbl currently and way lower on Methylfolate. Can anyone address? Thx!

 

[ahmo]

I am super confused. I started his basic protocol...should I be trying to just take what it says here? I'm much higher on the MeCbl and AdoCbl currently and way lower on Methylfolate. Can anyone address? Thx!

What is says where? What are you taking? Maybe you answered earlier. When I asked Fred about increasing folate, he suggested 100-200mcg every day or 2. This worked great for me.

 

[Nikki7]

What is says where? What are you taking? Maybe you answered earlier. When I asked Fred about increasing folate, he suggested 100-200mcg every day or 2. This worked great for me.

What is says where? What are you taking? Maybe you answered earlier. When I asked Fred about increasing folate, he suggested 100-200mcg every day or 2. This worked great for me.

The above listed info from Freddd's post made it look like I should be on tons of methylfolate to me. I am just following basic protocol at best.
I'm currently on all Rec vitamins
MB12 3000-4000mcg daily
1000 5mthf daily
A crumb of Adb12 --/just can't tolerate it
Wondering if I should be on more 5Mthf? For pretty severe fatigue and all?
I'm having healing with what I'm doing...almost feel I'm overdoing? Constant need for potassium and maybe more folate?
Just wondering if I should be aiming for higher folate?
Thanks!

 

[Kathevans]

The issue is that depending on your genetics, or whatever it is that plays into your tolerance of these supps, it could be easier or more difficult to ramp up to your ultimate levels of all the Deadlock Quartet. If your symptoms are too strong or feel intolerable, pull back, let your body get used to a particular level before moving on to the next. I go up and down over the course of each week, but ultimately the trend is upward. Over five months I've made enormous progress.

It's ok to feel that your 'almost overdoing' sometimes, but I would think not every day. Let your body be your guide. If you take your time initially and chart your responses, it's easier to look back and see what's what.

It sounds like you've done a lot. Take a step back and take in your progress!

 

[Nikki7]

The issue is that depending on your genetics, or whatever it is that plays into your tolerance of these supps, it could be easier or more difficult to ramp up to your ultimate levels of all the Deadlock Quartet. If your symptoms are too strong or feel intolerable, pull back, let your body get used to a particular level before moving on to the next. I go up and down over the course of each week, but ultimately the trend is upward. Over five months I've made enormous progress.

It's ok to feel that your 'almost overdoing' sometimes, but I would think not every day. Let your body be your guide. If you take your time initially and chart your responses, it's easier to look back and see what's what.

It sounds like you've done a lot. Take a step back and take in your progress!

Thanks @Kathevans! I will give this time. Glad for your progress over five months...that's awesome and encouraging!

 

[ahmo]

The above listed info from Freddd's post made it look like I should be on tons of methylfolate to me. I am just following basic protocol at best.
I'm currently on all Rec vitamins
MB12 3000-4000mcg daily
1000 5mthf daily
A crumb of Adb12 --/just can't tolerate it
Wondering if I should be on more 5Mthf? For pretty severe fatigue and all?
I'm having healing with what I'm doing...almost feel I'm overdoing? Constant need for potassium and maybe more folate?
Just wondering if I should be aiming for higher folate?
Thanks!

Looks like Kath has answered you. good luck.

 

[heyitisjustin]

Thanks for the reply.
Personally I am looking to reduce my high histamine levels, my high MCV, and increase my own body's melatonin production so my circadian rhythm can be reasonable. I know my high histamine levels contribute to a number of lingering pain symptoms that my other meds and supplements are not adequate to handle. Hence I am trying to 're-tool' the methylation protocol I have been following for 2 years in the hopes of improving some of the things.

I seem to have the same problems namely histamine and melatonin. Have you (or anyone else) made progress in these regards?

 

[ahmo]

@heyitisjustin Activated B2 radically reduced my histamine issues. I've blogged about it, FMN linked in my signature.

 

[sand9417]

@Freddd - I am wondering if you have an opinion about whether your protocol would be effective for a young child on the autism spectrum. I know CFS is quite different from ASD, but our child presents with atypical autism characteristics (some similar to CFS) that were significantly exacerbated by a coxsackie virus infection at age 4. I have been very impressed by your knowledge of biochemistry, and your protocol is much more accessible than others (Yasko) I have researched. Thus,I would be very interested in your opinion about how the principles you have uncovered might apply to someone with ASD, and what results we might expect if we tried the protocol at some point in the future. Thanks!

 

[Kathevans]

I seem to have the same problems namely histamine and melatonin. Have you (or anyone else) made progress in these regards?

Having followed Fred's Protocol, gotten many positive results, only to still suffer sleep issues and other neurological symptoms, I have to double down on what @ahmo has to say about B2. In fact, given that forms of Riboflavin are used in many of our physiological processes, and seemingly can get more used up by pushing methylation, I think adequate B2 intake is absolutely required. All Bs are not created equal. And all Bs are not used equally in YOUR body. This depends on your genetic profile. Mine from 23andme should have been a heads-up in terms of B2, but given some of Fred's warnings and my own caution, I kept the Riboflavin at a low 20mg/day in a complex.

So, imho, this thread is a must for those treading into the deep waters of methylation: forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b2-i-love-you.15209

It's long and some of it may be old news to you, but some of it was very new to me and there were some terrific stories. It gave me a deeper understanding of how it all works. And btw, my sleep has improved with the B2. I'm certainly not there yet as I'm only three or so weeks into a slow titration, but I see reason for hope.

And isn't that always the point?!

 

[heyitisjustin]

This depends on your genetic profile. Mine from 23andme should have been a heads-up in terms of B2,

Thanks for the reply. Are you talking about MAO-A or some other SNP?

 

[Kathevans]

Are you talking about MAO-A or some other SNP?

Yes, indeed. The MAO A+/+. But, because I cut back on my B Complex to keep the needs for B2 lower, the extra B2 in the Source Naturals hasn't amounted to much yet. I'm wondering if more is absorbed as a sublingual--it seems to to me.

Somehow, thought it never seems as easy as one or two things to me (or even four!). I just read somewhere here that you need to have more B1 than B2. Hmmmm. If that's the case, B1 may be my next deficiency!

Today, I'm afraid, all of this seems like wack-a-mole to me.

 

[mgwpg]

Ok I'm just going to say it, this protocol is communicated very poorly and is not easy for anyone to understand, much less people with CFS and brain fog. Seriously, read the replies here, everyone is confused and has a different translation of what Fredd is saying.

Does anyone actually know what you're supposed to do? I have seen about 10 different translations of this and they are all significantly different. I have seen multiple PDF's e.g. "my understanding of fredds protocol" (the name eludes that they had difficulty understanding it) and even those are not clear. Can someone simply break down what we are supposed to do? I have literally read for hours and have given up.

Does anyone have a comprehensive explanation of this protocol?

 

[dh214]

Hello,

I have had all sorts of problems since I was 16. I am 34 now (hypothroid, autoimmune off and on, joint pain in hands, weight loss, canker sores, terrible sinus infections, depression, and spells of being tired for 1-2 months at a time) - diet has helped with some of these but I have had clues in the past like B12. The reason I am posting here is to get some help on this process, as it was about 2 years ago that I took one pill of methycobalimin and I could have sworn my whole life was changed for the better. I slept so deeply that first week, was social, had energy, wasn’t depressed, no longer had joint pain in hands. Everything in my life was cured. Then it didn’t work. But I didn’t know enough as to why and didn’t go any further.

So, Im trying to understand this process. I am also a little worried about hurting my body from what i have seen regarding potassium -

Here are my questions -
Should I be getting potassium checked?

I am also confused how much I take and to know when to stop or what the upper limit is?

The B-complex I am taking right now does not have B12 or Folate. It is by Seeking Health. Is necessary to eliminate these from the B-complex?

What do you take first? of these below?

Absolutely critical minimums for basic healing.

• Jarrow Formulas 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness
• Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) 3mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness
• Solgar Metafolin 800mcg
• Jarrow B-Right b-complex, 1 capsule twice a day
• Potassium, your choice of brand and form - this is insurance against hypokalemia triggered by sudden healing and potentially fatal - if you have blood tests, potassium is usually checked, midrange, around 4.5 is good. Some people will have problems at bottom of "normal" range, 3.5-4.0 as I do.
• Omega3 fishoils - essential for myelin sheathing for the nerves, many brands will do, 2-6+ capsules per day, I buy it at Costco, house brand. This is available in many supermarkets.

Essential, usually needs supplementing

• Zinc - 50 mg
• Calcium/magnesium supplement
• D - 3000-5000 IU total
• A&D from fish oil, 10,000-(400-800-1000) Vitamin A should be 10,000, D might be any of 3 numbers with additional D to be taken
• Vitamin E, NOW Foods Gamma E complex
• Vitamin C – 4000+mg/day

Possibly Critical Showstopper Cofactors - add after initial stages, any number of these in any combination may be required for maximum effectiveness or in some cases to work at all.

• SAM-e - 200-400mg/day, makes methylb12 more effective, possibly much more effective, increases energy, improves mood
• TMG - enhances SAM-e, methylb12, l-carnitine
• L-carnitine fumarate (acetyl might work better for some), works with adenosylb12, lack can completely prevent effectiveness of adenosylb12, increases energy, aerobic endurance, improves mood
• Alpha Lipoic Acid - enhances l-carnitine and adenosylb12
• D-Ribose - enhances adenosylb12, l-carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, improves exercise recovery and energy

Additional possibly helpful cofactors

• Selenium
• Lecithin
• Chromium GTF
• many other supplements

Thank you for your help.

 

[Biarritz13]

]Hi. I've read through the protocol several times and i'm still confused about what to do if there is a "paradoxical folate insufficiency"

Everyone is going to be different. It is more of a trial and error than follow a recipe. Some people take 2 mg of mfolate a day and some higher. There are those who are taking 20 mg a day but I am not sure whether they are absorbing it well. Hope you can. I have to put it under my tongue.
So, push up the B12, watch the potassium - most of us needed some at first, watch the B2 there will be extra demands on it. gradual increase in mfolate....and then adenosylcobalamin and l-carnitine fumerate, if you are following Freddd's ideas.

Hi Stridor.

I am still insecure with this protocol.
I do understand why we need potassium after adding B12 and how to evaluate it (through cramps and twitching) but I am not sure how to deal with after, especially in the case when you go back to the "normal state" after adding potassium. Is it at this moment that we need to add b2 then adenosylcobalamin? What's about LCF?

Thank you.

 

[heyitisjustin]

Many of the veggies I used were high in iron, and it turns out I have congenitally high iron levels. Which is toxic for an adult male.

Did you find a gene linked to iron status? How high were your levels? My iron has always been high, but I hadn't been too worried. Trying to figure out if I should be.

 

[heyitisjustin]

I recovered from severe AFS (adrenal fatigue syndrome) - w/ collagen loss, muscle wasting, salt craving, neurochemical dysregulation, etc... and at the worse points I felt a stabbing pain in lower back.

Do you know what caused/fixed the muscle wasting? I think I eat plenty of protein and I have the same issue. I was guessing gut problems, but that's only because that's the only thing I can think of.

Did you have sleep issues or joint pain? Just trying to see if we have the same problems/solutions.

 

[Sherpa]

@heyitisjustin

the muscle wasting was (in believe) largely caused by high cortisol levels. I got locked into "sympathetic dominance" from body being constantly in anxiety, fight or flight response. the high costisol disrupts testosterone production so you cannot grow new muscle or maintain muscle.. and when the stress and energy debt gets severe the body will metabolize its own muscle tissue protein to use for energy.

Hell yes, I had sleep problems that were ferocious. They went away after many months of controlling my stress levels, practicing yoga, taking herbs and vitamins to reduce corisol production, reducing technology use, taking vitamins to support adrenal hormone synthesis.

I did not have joint paint, so much as muscle pain, but I have heard joint pain is a common symptom of adrenal fatigue syndeome (AFS).

 

[heyitisjustin]

@heyitisjustin

the muscle wasting was (in believe) largely caused by high cortisol levels. I got locked into "sympathetic dominance" from body being constantly in anxiety, fight or flight response. the high costisol disrupts testosterone production so you cannot grow new muscle or maintain muscle.. and when the stress and energy debt gets severe the body will metabolize its own muscle tissue protein to use for energy.

Hell yes, I had sleep problems that were ferocious. They went away after many months of controlling my stress levels, practicing yoga, taking herbs and vitamins to reduce corisol production, reducing technology use, taking vitamins to support adrenal hormone synthesis.

I did not have joint paint, so much as muscle pain, but I have heard joint pain is a common symptom of adrenal fatigue syndeome (AFS).

My cortisol is only high in the morning. My testosterone is very high (as is my sex hormone binding globulin so it all isn't active). I can see the constant stress being a problem for me, but perhaps through a non cortisol channel?
Perhaps I don't have joint pain. My knees/elbows hurt, but it does seem to be the knee/elbow muscles.

 

[stridor]

@Theodore
There is definitely a learning curve associated with this protocol. This is particularly true as there isn't any set "recipes" we all seem to need our own variation and adjuncts.

As K+ is an intercellular ion it is hard to measure well. There is supposed to be something like an RBC potassium level or something like that but I did what you did and went by symptoms. I felt like I was being dragged down. I don't know how else to put it.

I took it for several weeks....10 or 12 and then eased off. Never had to go back on.
B2 you can take out of the gate. Freddd recommends...I forget now, something like 25 mg of the various B's. I don't absorb B2 well and am taking 100mg twice daily. This is about half of what people with migraine take. It would only be alot if I could absorb the stuff. I don't absorb iron or folate well either. The folate is under the tongue.

I also inject the RDA of B1. B2, B5 and B6.

I don't know whether I am the guy to follow. I have my own quirks. I got a lift with the first couple of adeno's and it was a sign to continue. The extra energy does not last and after a year I settled into once weekly dosing.

I was late starting the LCF because I had such disastrous results with acetyl-l-carnitine the 4 times I tried to incorporate it. Theoretically, it seemed at the time as if I should be taking carnitine so I kept trying.
I did eventually try the LCF and it was instant love.

For the record, I am always happy to try and help but there are others on this site far more conversant with the protocol I would say. I try to get over here about once a week to see how things are going. Cheers.