Active B12 Protocol Basics

[jaykle]

@liverock, what mutations cause this issue? And does it have a name? Given that I have mutations all around the cycle, I suspect I probably qualify for the party.

I've been taking about 5x more mB12 than adB12 with sublinguals, but recently I've been using a product with a 3:1 ad:methyl ratio. If I have this problem, I need to re-think that product.

Welcome to the PR forum jaykle,

Sounds like Mb12 deficiency causing a 'folate trap'. A 1:1 ratio of MB12 and folate is not suitable if you have mutations joining the Folate/methione parts of the cycle.

With these mutations MB12 is not being recycled adequately and the folate trap is sprung. Depending on whether the mutations are homozygous or heterozygous determines the amount of increased MB12 required to get round these mutations.

If its correct that you are taking 2x as much AdBcl as MB12 that could be a problem as well. The normal ratio is between 3 to5 x more MB12 than AdCbl. Some people taking higher doses of ADCbl compared to MB12 have reported symptoms similar to methyl trapping.

Try lowering AdCbll and increasing MB12.

Thanks for your detailed reply.

As another member has already asked the question, I'll be brief. Which mutations (SNPs or "Family") are you referring to? In the meantime I've received my other blood tests which all came negative (they were trying to check the source of this anemia) so it could be that you are very right regarding this direction...

EDIT: I just looked at the methylation cycle diagram so I can be more specific - are you referring to the MTR/MTRR mutations?

EDIT2: Looking at some of the related MTR/MTRR it seems that I'm hetro with some of them. Somehow I can't attach the table here so I'm doing it with another post.

 

[jaykle]

As previously mentioned it seems that I'm hetro with some of the MTR/MTRR SNPs. Are all SNPs in this case created equal or some have more "impact"?

 

[liverock]

@jaykle

Yes, its the MTR/MTRR mutations in question.

These two are the most popular ones. The MTR A2756G and MTRR A66G produce a 'double whammy' against MB12.
If you go to the MTR/MTRR sections on this site you can see visually the problem with explanations and remedies.

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Outcomes-Non-CV-Autism-Methyl Cycle.htm#MTR: Methionine Synthase.

If you are not COMT + mutation then taking MB12 can be used to help overcome the problem, otherwise Hydroxy B12 which is slower acting. If all else fails you can supplement Phosphatidyl serine in the 'short route' BHMT pathway to help methylation.

Do you suffer from CFS/ME there's nothing on your profile.

Its now midnight in the UK, off to zzzzz.

 

[jaykle]

@liverock - thanks.

Regarding my CFS/ME condition - well I definitely have/had several CFS symptoms although I was never professionally diagnosed.

I will try your MTR related recommendations - I'm about to travel abroad and I would like to try these "experiments" while I'm at home...

One question about the starting point - should I "reset" completely first? meaning stop taking l-methylfolate for several days, take only Methyl B12 for a while and then start kicking in the l-methylfolate? or just increase the B12 to my daily procedure?

 

[stridor]

@garyfritz
You have a few variants that could contribute to a greater need for B12. The FUT2 is involved with B12 absorption. TCN2 = transcobalamin, also known as "the frailty gene" moves B12 into the cell. MTRR attaches a methyl group to B12 = recycling. This is the main one that @liverock is speaking to.
I have TCN2++ and 2 x MTRR ++(each one by itself less significant than yours - together?). I need a lot of mB12 and essentially rely on diffusion to move it into the cells bypassing TCN2.

 

[Helen]

Hello,
This is my 1st post so I'm not sure if this is the right place to start this discussion... I apologize in advance...

I'm MTHFR C677T +/+ and settled about a year ago on a "light" version of the active B12 protocol. Basically, I'm taking on a daily basis MethylCbl (1000mcg, sublin.) + AdCbl (~2000mcg) and L-Methyl (800 mcg.).

Recently I've done another blood test and found out that some CBC parameters have gone worse (comparing to the previous test I've done about 10 months ago) and now probably indicating Anemia (doctor sent me to more tests...)

For example, RBC and Hemoglobin which were borderline normal low, have now crossed the red line and are low (RBC 4.4 to 4, Hgb 13.7 to 12.9). MCV is going up (95) and Platelets count have dropped to borderline minimum and MPV crossed borderline high 13.3.

Bottom line - Can this "Anemia" be an outcome of the protocol? I know that in some cases people have suffered from a paradoxical folate deficiency when applying the protocol but I must say that 99% of the time I feel great and only in the begining of applying the protocol more than a year ago I had to do some adjustments (e.g., potassium) so besides the "Anemia" I didn't/don't experience any apparent symptoms which may indicate paradoxical folate deficiency...

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Hi Jaykle,

Welcome to the forum. I would suggest that you create your own thread. Your post above would be a great start.

I think your anemia could be caused by too little available vitamin B12. Your polymorphisms make you at risk for both B12 and folate deficiency as others already told, so you would probably need more than a "light protocol". It is a (well)known medical fact that with a B12 deficiency you might get an anemia too as "iron will not stay if you are B12 deficient" (quoted from a doctor). At least the anemia should be thouroughly examined, and your doctor seems to do.

You probably know that there are no valid tests for B12 but some should be done. The most valid , except for spinal fluid testing, is methyl malonic acid as a direct marker of B12 deficiency. Homocysteine should be tested but might show either B12, B6 or folate defiency. Also a blood cobalamin should be included though it, from experienced doctors, is seen as pretty unvalid if negative. Taking B12 in any form affects a blood cobalamin test. All tests might be in normal rannge and yet you could have a functional B12/folate deficiency.

Experienced doctors in my country often let the the patient (like me) find out what kind of B12, dose, and frequency that give an optimal effect. Adding folate sometimes is more tricky as you probably have noticed from all the posts about this. Titrating slowly is the most recommened to give the body time to adjust to the combination of B12+folate that is supposed to get the methylation going again.

 

[liverock]

@liverock - thanks.

Regarding my CFS/ME condition - well I definitely have/had several CFS symptoms although I was never professionally diagnosed.

I will try your MTR related recommendations - I'm about to travel abroad and I would like to try these "experiments" while I'm at home...

One question about the starting point - should I "reset" completely first? meaning stop taking l-methylfolate for several days, take only Methyl B12 for a while and then start kicking in the l-methylfolate? or just increase the B12 to my daily procedure?

@jaykle
Raise your MB12 to a 5,000 mcg Country Life sublingual to get out of the methyl trap ASAP and your methylfolate at 1,000mcg. Make sure the sublingual is kept trapped between the upper lip and gum for max absorption, and it should last at least an hour using this method.
Get a homocysteine test at the same time, which as you are C677T++ will probably be high.
As MB12 overcomes the MTR/MTRR problem your homocysteine will probably lower, but you may have to raise the MB12 to 2x5,000mcg/day or more to get it lower. Taking a Thorne Basic B Complex should also help. In methylation we are all different there are no standard dosages, its all a matter of what suits your particular unique makeup by trial.

As previously said if you still have problems after this, using TMG or phosphatidylserine.(depending on your COMT mutations) down the 'short route' will help to increase methylation.

Poor CBS mutations could also affect your methylation.

.

 

[liverock]

@liverock, what mutations cause this issue? And does it have a name? Given that I have mutations all around the cycle, I suspect I probably qualify for the party.

I've been taking about 5x more mB12 than adB12 with sublinguals, but recently I've been using a product with a 3:1 ad:methyl ratio. If I have this problem, I need to re-think that product.

@garyfritz
You just have the MTRR mutation which is causing your MB12 problems.

As far as the ideal MB12/Adb12 ratio there is not a lot of references but this is the one from Freddd/Eric. Which product are you taking thats 3:1 ad:methyl?

http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/#adb12-ratio

 

[jaykle]

@liverock

Thanks again.

 

[jaykle]

@Helen

Thanks! (sorry for being a bit late on my side...)

 

[liverock]

@jaykle
One thing you need to be careful of if the extra MB12 starts cranking up methylation suddenly again, is the return of low potassium symptoms. OTOH you may have to wait for MB12 levels to build up enough, without any outward obvious improvement, if you have been 'methyl trapping' for months.

 

[jaykle]

Hello again,

I just wanted to update that my homocysteine levels came back normal (6.4 mumol/L) which seem to point out that folate deficiency (or even paradoxical folate deficiency) is unlikely. Right?

Additionally, although unreliable as a true measuring tool, FYI my B12 serum levels are normal-high (750).

So it seems I'm back to square one regarding this "Anemia" phenomena I'm experiencing. Seeing a hematologist on Wednesday...

Jay

 

[aturtles]

I could not find the right place to say this, so I'm going to say it here. Because WOW, I never thought I'd be saying this...!

Yesterday, under my Nat Doctor's direction, I gave myself my first Methyl-B12 injection.

I'm super proud of myself. I never thought I'd be able to do self-administered injections. I was really apprehensive (okay, yeah, TERRIFIED), but I did it. And OH my GOSH is the result far and away better than all the brands and doses of sublingual MeClbs I've tried.

The ND was great -- she coached me beautifully. But I actually did the injection. (Me! ).

I wanted to post about it in case anyone else is wondering about injections, but thinking that doing it themselves would be too hard and terrifying. Because that's what I thought. And I've taken the first step.

Sooooooo... I wanted to follow up on all this. First the NP and I did the IM injections, and yeah, the first one rocked. The second one not as much. Then (thanks to comments by @garyfritz re Freddd advice) we did the SC injection. I was all set to learn to do those and move forward.

But even the SCs are going to spike somewhat, and injections are a pain (literally) and expensive. Did I really need them? We had a sit-down, me and the NP, and I said, wait, why are we doing this again? She said she wanted me to try a purer form of MeCbl that might also be more effective. She was less than thrilled with the sublingual tabs' necessary fillers to keep them from dissolving fast, and the different brands' inconsistent formulations producing who knows what kind of efficacy.

She asked me to try nasal spray from a compounding pharmacy that would make it at predictable quality to specified strength (1mg/ spray, is what we came up with).

So that's what I'm doing next. Snuffling MeCbl. Planning to test run that this month and see how it goes.

I'm reporting in on all this because, well, I've had so much great help here and so much wonderful support, that if my experience can help anyone else, I feel I must. Comments or questions welcome, here or PM.

 

[ahmo]

@aturtles I'm getting set to try inhaling. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?posts/514370/

 

[FTY]

Hi, quick question, apologies if this is the wrong thread. I was about to purchase Source Naturals advanced B12 complex when I read a terrible, terrible review of it on amazon. Does anyone know anything about the claims made here?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Source-Natu...56450&sr=8-8&keywords=Active+B-12+Dibencozide

To be honest, it scared me quite a lot, as though I wasn't confused enough about what I need anyway!

Any insights appreciated

 

[ahmo]

@FTY

methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide) ? with folic acid.

You should be avoiding folic acid. It interferes w/ folate . Iherb sells Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex (AdB12). Enzymatic Therapies MB12 is the highest rated 1mg B12 by users of Freddd's Protocol. And Country LIfe 5000mcg (5mg).

 

[FTY]

@ahmo Thanks - I hadn't noticed that it had folic acid in it - you've saved me time and money! I couldn't find any other brand of adB12 without folic acid but I've now located the anabol naturals on iherb, can't seem to find the other two that you mentioned though - all of the country life supplements seem to have folic acid? (I actually ordered some recently only to find it contained folic acid on closer inspection hence why I was looking on amazon for an alternative). Thanks again

 

[ahmo]

@FTY
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-B12-Infusion-Energy-30-Chewable-Tablets/2119#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=enzymatic therapies b12&rc=252&sr=null&ic=1

http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Gluten-Free-Methyl-B12-Cherry-Flavor-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/51092#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=country life b12&rc=1446&sr=null&ic=4;)

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

Hi, quick question, apologies if this is the wrong thread. I was about to purchase Source Naturals advanced B12 complex when I read a terrible, terrible review of it on amazon. Does anyone know anything about the claims made here?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Source-Naturals-Advanced-B-12-Complex/dp/B000GFHP2U/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1415356450&sr=8-8&keywords=Active B-12 Dibencozide

To be honest, it scared me quite a lot, as though I wasn't confused enough about what I need anyway!

Any insights appreciated

The reviewer was discussing Source Naturals L-Tryptophan, not B12 or Dibencozide.

In October 2010 I purchased Source Naturals L-Tryptophan....

Sounds like someone hates Source Naturals, and is spamming on AmazonUK.

Check out the USA site, lots of good reviews there: www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-Advanced-Complex-Tablets/dp/B000GFHP2U

 

[garyfritz]

can't seem to find the other two that you mentioned though - all of the country life supplements seem to have folic acid?

@ahmo's link is the right one. I used a lot of that Country Life 5000mcg. That's the ONLY Country Life B12 I would recommend. All the others contain folic acid, or cyanocobolamin, etc. The 5000mcg is methylB12, and it has no sugars or acids in it. The sweetener (Xylitol) is actually beneficial to tooth enamel.

I was taking 20mg (4 * 5000mcg) per day. Given what I know now, I would break it into halves or even quarters, so as to lengthen the time window that it's diffusing into my bloodstream. I suspect I could have done with less than 20mg if I'd done that.