Acetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise

[Mya Symons]

Which Catalase brand are you taking? You take only one 600 mg dose after heavy exercise, and none during a normal day?

I have been taking Invite Catalase. It is expensive, so I try to limit large doses (2 pills) for days I exercise, and 1 for days I don't.

 

[Adster]

I only recall the overall exercise science. No details, sorry.

It is lipid peroxidation, btw.

A point of interest: the same aldehyde dehydrogenase family that breaks down MDA is also involved in breaking down the 1st metabolite of alcohol: acetaldehyde. So people with bad PEM might also have bad alcohol intolerance.

Aldehyde dehydrogenase is also one pathway used to break down histamine in food.

 

[pemone]

I have been taking Invite Catalase. It is expensive, so I try to limit large doses (2 pills) for days I exercise, and 1 for days I don't.

Does anyone have pointers to any good discussions of when Catalase is likely to be useful?

Is there any good science talking about whether it would have a benefit taken as a regular supplement, outside of any exercise?

 

[pemone]

I have been taking Invite Catalase. It is expensive, so I try to limit large doses (2 pills) for days I exercise, and 1 for days I don't.

Mya, is this the one you take:

http://www.amazon.com/InVite-Health-Catalase-Hx-153/dp/B008BASLD4

I hate that they add this extra ingredient Picrorhiza Kurroa. I really like taking pure ingredients, as I take so many different things now.

 

[pemone]

I have been taking Invite Catalase. It is expensive, so I try to limit large doses (2 pills) for days I exercise, and 1 for days I don't.

Have you done any isolated experiments after exercise, taking just catalase and NOT sodium bicarb at the same time?

How do you subjectively perceive the difference when taking catalase?

 

[Mya Symons]

I just wanted to add one more thing. You want to get the Catalase alone without Superoxide Dismutase. I believe it was Dr. Pall who thought we produce too much Superoxide Dismutase and it would make us feel worse. I have tried the combination. It did make me feel worse. I know everyone is different, but it is something to keep in mind.

SCRATCH THIS. I AM REREADING THE INFORMATION ON THE PALL PROTOCOL. IT IS NITRIC OXIDE THAT IS HIGH NOT SUPEROXIDE DISMUTASE.

 

[Mya Symons]

Mya, is this the one you take:

http://www.amazon.com/InVite-Health-Catalase-Hx-153/dp/B008BASLD4

I hate that they add this extra ingredient Picrorhiza Kurroa. I really like taking pure ingredients, as I take so many different things now.

Yes, that is it. I also am annoyed that they add the extra ingredient. However, the only other choice without Superoxide Dismutase is Catalase from Europe and the cost of mailing is way too expensive for me. If you live in Europe there is one other brand called Super Smart Catalase.

If someone is able to find Catalase without Superoxide Dismutase or other ingredients, let us know please.

 

[Tammy]

I just read some info that apple polyphenols (sour apple skins) can raise catalase...........no added ingredients, fillers, etc.

 

[pemone]

I just wanted to add one more thing. You want to get the Catalase alone without Superoxide Dismutase. I believe it was Dr. Pall who thought we produce too much Superoxide Dismutase and it would make us feel worse. I have tried the combination. It did make me feel worse. I know everyone is different, but it is something to keep in mind.

I'm about to post a question about this and I will tag you in that.

Actually, it turns out that catalase is an enabler of superoxide dismutase, and without the SOD I get the feeling catalase has no effect. I think it is extremely common in mitochondrial illnesses, aging, and CFS to have SOD levels that are far below normal. Get an oxidative stress panel done. Mine showed SOD levels that were frightening...just in the toilet.

 

[Tammy]

My SOD levels extremely low also.

 

[pemone]

My SOD levels extremely low also.

If we tested 100 CFS patients who have the classic post exertional malaise symptom, I would be frankly amazed if at least 90 of them did not have significantly lowered SOD levels. I would expect the entire antioxidant complex to be significantly downregulated.

 

[Mya Symons]

I'm about to post a question about this and I will tag you in that.

Actually, it turns out that catalase is an enabler of superoxide dismutase, and without the SOD I get the feeling catalase has no effect. I think it is extremely common in mitochondrial illnesses, aging, and CFS to have SOD levels that are far below normal. Get an oxidative stress panel done. Mine showed SOD levels that were frightening...just in the toilet.

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder why it made me feel worse. Maybe the Catalase levels were too low for an effect and I was in the middle of a bad flare up.

Do you take Superoxide Dismutase supplements?


I found this statement about SOD and it is confusing: SOD converts the dangerous superoxide radical to hydrogen peroxide, which catalase converts to harmless water and oxygen. If you were producing too much hydrogen peroxide after exercise, wouldn't SuperOxide Dismutase make it worse?

 

[Tammy]

I would assume this might happen if you didn't have enough catalase?????? Might not be a good idea to take SOD supplement without enough catalase.

 

[Mya Symons]

I would assume this might happen if you didn't have enough catalase?????? Might not be a good idea to take SOD supplement without catalase.

Good Point. Maybe if I took the Superoxide Dismutase Supplement with extra Catalase things would get even better. I think I may try it and see what happens.

 

[pemone]

I found this statement about SOD and it is confusing: SOD converts the dangerous superoxide radical to hydrogen peroxide, which catalase converts to harmless water and oxygen. If you were producing too much hydrogen peroxide after exercise, wouldn't SuperOxide Dismutase make it worse?

Hey, that is great stuff, thanks. I guess the main byproduct of aerobic metabolism must be the superoxide radical? Someone chime in and correct me if wrong. So without the SOD you don't get the hydrogen peroxide. But without the addition of the catalase, you don't disable that byproduct. So there is a metabolic chain of events, and you need both the SOD and the catalase to get to a good place.

The catalase you took was helping to disarm the hydrogen peroxide. But it is possible that you have lots of superoxide radicals that you just don't have enough SOD to convert, so that the catalase you took cannot act on them.

The point of the new post I want to put up is to look for SOD therapies. The ones I found like SODZyme contain wheat and I cannot eat that. I take one supplement but I seriously doubt it does anything for me. Details in the new post.

 

[Mya Symons]

Hey, that is great stuff, thanks. I guess the main byproduct of aerobic metabolism must be the superoxide radical? Someone chime in and correct me if wrong. So without the SOD you don't get the hydrogen peroxide. But without the addition of the catalase, you don't disable that byproduct. So there is a metabolic chain of events, and you need both the SOD and the catalase to get to a good place.

The catalase you took was helping to disarm the hydrogen peroxide. But it is possible that you have lots of superoxide radicals that you just don't have enough SOD to convert, so that the catalase you took cannot act on them.

The point of the new post I want to put up is to look for SOD therapies. The ones I found like SODZyme contain wheat and I cannot eat that. I take one supplement but I seriously doubt it does anything for me. Details in the new post.

Thanks for the information. I am looking now and they are all made from wheat. That is disappointing. I can't eat wheat either. I did not notice that before. That explains the pain.

 

[Mel9]

Very interesting results, @Mya Symons.

Very interesting
I have recently discovered that CoQ10 taken after 30 min gardening prevented severe PEM
As long as I lie down for 2hours after gardening
Then I can do another 30 min gardening



I think that's a good interpretation.

And studies (see here and here) have shown that both bicarbonate and catalase (via its scavenging of hydrogen peroxide) improve muscle recovery after exercise.


Interestingly, in other threads on this forum, ME/CFS patients said they had significantly less PEM after physical exercise when taking co-enzyme Q10 beforehand, and when taking creatine monohydrate beforehand.

See:
How much CoQ10 do you take?
Creatine supplementation reduces my PEM

These two supplements have been shown to improve muscle endurance, and increase muscle recovery after injury respectively (see here and here), so that makes sense.

So that's now four PEM-busters identified: sodium bicarbonate, catalase, Q10 and creatine monohydrate.



I wonder if these four supplements might also help the PEM I get from mental exertion? I find that even light socializing for 3 or 4 hours in the evening will cause me significant PEM the following day or two. This greatly limits my social life. Though I expect that the mechanisms of mental exertion-induced PEM will be different to those of physical exertion-induced PEM.

Nevertheless, these four supplements taken together may work wonders for combatting physical PEM. It would be interesting for ME/CFS patients who are significantly limited by physical PEM to take all four of these PEM-busting supplements on a daily basis, and see if they can then expand their limits (eg: be able to walk more without PEM repercussions).

 

[Mya Symons]

Hmm. I take CoQ10 as part of the Pall protocol. I haven't tried creatine before. I've tried everything else so I may try that too.

 

[Sherlock]

The remaining ingredients that might help against PEM? Anti-inflammatories. Maybe flavonoids (turmeric, ginger, cheery, etc). Maybe NSAIDS, though keep in mind that NSAIDS can promote leaky gut --- though that might occur mainly where heat shock proteins get damaged in conditions of.. high heat.

 

[SDSue]

I take a lot of supplements, but I find the ones I mentioned above work the best to reduce PEM after exercise. Most effective is two baking soda pills before exercise and lots of catalase immediately after. I take 600 mg of Catalase after the exercise.

Hi, @Mary. I had to chuckle a little, because I went around with "baking soda helps exercise recovery" for months in my sig and hardly anybody said a word. So much is in the timing, I guess

I'm quite curious about this. I'm hovering between a 2 and a 3 on the activity scale, so I obviously spend a lot of time with PEM.

What are "2 baking soda pills"? Do people fill their own capsules? How much would one dissolve in water instead? And how often do you take this? Is daily too much?

Thanks!