Acetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise

[Sherlock]

What are "2 baking soda pills"?

I don't know. I use ~ 1/3 teaspoon out of the box at a time. (Too much has a powerful laxative effect.)

Is daily too much?

Before or after actvity would seem to be the way to go.

 

[MeSci]

I find that even light socializing for 3 or 4 hours in the evening will cause me significant PEM the following day or two. This greatly limits my social life. Though I expect that the mechanisms of mental exertion-induced PEM will be different to those of physical exertion-induced PEM.

This paper and this paper and this paper about lactate and the brain may interest you.

 

[adreno]

Hey, that is great stuff, thanks. I guess the main byproduct of aerobic metabolism must be the superoxide radical? Someone chime in and correct me if wrong. So without the SOD you don't get the hydrogen peroxide. But without the addition of the catalase, you don't disable that byproduct. So there is a metabolic chain of events, and you need both the SOD and the catalase to get to a good place.

You got it (mostly) right. You also need glutathione:

SOD converts oxygen free radicals into oxygen and a less toxic substance, Hydrogen Peroxide.

SOD + OFR (oxygen free radical) --> H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) + O (Oxygen)

Hydrogen Peroxide is less harmful, which is then converted to water by your second line of defense, Glutathione Peroxidase (GPX).

GPX + H2O2 --> H2O + O

The third defense against free radical attack is Catalase which transforms the remaining oxygen free radical to water and oxygen.

Catalase + OFR --> H2O + O

http://www.ganoderma-for-health.com/superoxide-dismutase.html

Turns out that reishi can raise all of these (SOD, glutathione and catalase):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20214017

 

[Mya Symons]

I'm quite curious about this. I'm hovering between a 2 and a 3 on the activity scale, so I obviously spend a lot of time with PEM.

What are "2 baking soda pills"? Do people fill their own capsules? How much would one dissolve in water instead? And how often do you take this? Is daily too much?

Thanks!

You can find them already made online (under sodium bicarbonate pills), but they are expensive. Or you can get a pill machine and make some yourself.

 

[Mya Symons]

"pone said: ↑
Hey, that is great stuff, thanks. I guess the main byproduct of aerobic metabolism must be the superoxide radical? Someone chime in and correct me if wrong. So without the SOD you don't get the hydrogen peroxide. But without the addition of the catalase, you don't disable that byproduct. So there is a metabolic chain of events, and you need both the SOD and the catalase to get to a good place."


Sorry, the quote feature didn't work right. I just wanted to mention this: Some bacteria like mycoplasma use up the body's
Superoxide Dismutase for themselves and produce their own byproduct of hydrogen peroxide. I am not sure if lyme does the same thing. I strongly believe that I have an ongoing bacterial infection, probably mycoplasma, and this is why the excess catalase helps me so much. However, I have no proof because I cannot afford the trip to a doctor who would actually test me and there is no standardized test.

Years ago I was told I had a mycoplasma infection for which i took azithromycin. I do not think it ever went away.

 

[MeSci]

Turns out that reishi can raise all of these (SOD, glutathione and catalase):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20214017

Results in mice are not reliable if you are looking for effects in humans.

Example.com have some info on human effects here.

 

[MeSci]

You can find them already made online (under sodium bicarbonate pills), but they are expensive. Or you can get a pill machine and make some yourself.

Or you can just use powder. I mix my solution for the day each morning. Probably cheaper, and maybe better to take it diluted like that.

 

[MeSci]

I use urine testing on ph paper as a proxy for measuring blood acidity.

I use saliva testing on ph paper as a proxy for measuring tissue acidity.

Is there evidence that this is accurate?

 

[Hip]

This paper and this paper and this paper about lactate and the brain may interest you.

Thanks very much for those links, @MeSci. They have spurred me on to reading more about lactate and the brain.

 

[Hip]

A local biochemist I hired explained to me that acidity can be in many different places in the body. It can be:

1) in blood, in which case sodium bicarb is a good solution

2) in tissue, which is treated by potassium bicarb (the potassium is a tissue alkalizer)

3) inside the cell, in which case case rubidium will neutralize the acidity

4) inside the nucleus of the cell, in which case cesium will neutralize the acidity

Did your biochemist provide you with any references to support 2, 3, and 4?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Turns out that reishi can raise all of these (SOD, glutathione and catalase):

I read on Examine.com that Reishi is an immunostimulator. OTOH users' reviews state that it is a modulator. Can anyone here please clarify that?

 

[pemone]

I'm quite curious about this. I'm hovering between a 2 and a 3 on the activity scale, so I obviously spend a lot of time with PEM.

What are "2 baking soda pills"? Do people fill their own capsules? How much would one dissolve in water instead? And how often do you take this? Is daily too much?

Buy pharmaceutical or food grade sodium bicarbonate. A low dose would be about 3/8 of a teaspoon. A high dose would be about 1 teaspoon.

I tend to mix in potassium bicarb in about a 3:2 ratio favoring sodium, taking care to not get more than about 400 mg of elemental potassium in any one dose.

Take one hour before or two hours after meals. NEVER take with meals.

 

[pemone]

Did your biochemist provide you with any references to support 2, 3, and 4?

Point 2 is obvious because sodium is the main extracellular electrolyte and potassium is the main intracellular electrolyte. There are whole structures on the cell wall dedicated to maintaining a balance between sodium outside and potassium inside, and a Google search will provide a huge number of references for you.

Points 3 and 4 on rubidium and cesium I never followed up on because I asked him if there was any way to measure alkalinity in these environments and he told me no. What's the point in proving the correctness of the thought if you cannot measure and take action anyway? Do you want me to ask him for you? I am trying to schedule another "class" with him in the next two weeks.

 

[pemone]

You got it (mostly) right. You also need glutathione:

Catalase can reduce hydrogen peroxide by itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalase

So Glutathione Peroxidase (GPX) is not essential for this particular transaction. It's an alternate way to deal with the hydrogen peroxide.

http://www.ganoderma-for-health.com/superoxide-dismutase.html

Turns out that reishi can raise all of these (SOD, glutathione and catalase):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20214017

Remember that Glutathione is not Glutathione Peroxidase (GPX). The latter is an enzyme that is part of the glutathione complex. It's important to make this distinction because some people make the point that you can ingest glutathione, or precursors, but if a person does not have the whole family of enzymes, then the glutathione won't be very effective as a result.

One of the problems with these endogenous antioxidants is that they tend to self-regulate. So if you upregulate them by supplement the body will fight back and stop producing as much on its own. You end up having to cycle on and off of those supplements to keep high levels in the body.

 

[pemone]

You can find them already made online (under sodium bicarbonate pills), but they are expensive. Or you can get a pill machine and make some yourself.

Or you can buy a huge 13.5 pound box of baking soda at Costco for under $10.

Forget the pill. Just use a 1/8th teaspoon measure and stir into water.

 

[pemone]

Is there evidence that this is accurate?

Testing urine and saliva pH is certainly NOT accurate as a test for blood pH. But you understand that the way they test blood pH is to stick a blood gas monitor into your artery and sample real time? It's a big deal to get such a test, even if you are hospitalized. So we are not going to get accurate data.

Steve Fowkes, a well known chemist, makes a reasonable point that urine and tissue pH is really a measurement of spillover from blood. It's just a cascade effect:

http://quantifiedself.com/2012/08/steve-fowkes/

I know empirically that when I start to feel like my head is in a brain fog or feels like it is burning, or when my muscles get that strange burning sensation that disables them, that nine out of 10 times if I then test my urine pH it is acidic. So it is suggestive of an overall shift within the body, but no scientist would accept it as either accurate or as proof. As an empirical and practical tool, I have found it to be brilliant and highly useful. Once I see acidity in urine, I simply pre-empt things and take low doses of bicarb just in case. And this over time has resulted in a dramatic reduction in my symptoms.

Taking potassium bicarb in the research literature is associated with reduction of bone loss and osteoporosis, because you are offloading the body's need to get bicarb buffering from your bones. So it's a very low cost and low risk symptom management for CFS with many nice health side effects.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Just a word of caution re potassium bicarb: it can really lower BP and some people might not be able to tolerate it. I took a dose of about 30mg and could not stand up for a couple of hours.

 

[pemone]

Just a word of caution re potassium bicarb: it can really lower BP and some people might not be able to tolerate it. I took a dose of about 30mg and could not stand up for a couple of hours.

Yeah, potassium is one of those things that you should consult a doctor and not a health forum alone....

It's interesting that paleolithic man is estimated to have eaten about 11 grams of potassium a day versus the current intakes under 1 gram. But that was potassium bound in food, slowly released, etc.

 

[Hip]

I think it is extremely common in mitochondrial illnesses, aging, and CFS to have SOD levels that are far below normal. Get an oxidative stress panel done. Mine showed SOD levels that were frightening...just in the toilet.

Note that there are three types of SOD (see quote below): which SOD did this panel measure; presumably SOD3?

Three types of SOD:

CuZn-SOD (SOD1) found almost exclusively within cells (in the cytoplasm).
Mn-SOD (SOD2) found exclusively to the mitochondria.
EC-SOD (SOD3) found exclusively to extracellular spaces outside cells.​

 

[Hip]

Point 2 is obvious because sodium is the main extracellular electrolyte and potassium is the main intracellular electrolyte. There are whole structures on the cell wall dedicated to maintaining a balance between sodium outside and potassium inside, and a Google search will provide a huge number of references for you.

Points 3 and 4 on rubidium and cesium I never followed up on because I asked him if there was any way to measure alkalinity in these environments and he told me no. What's the point in proving the correctness of the thought if you cannot measure and take action anyway? Do you want me to ask him for you? I am trying to schedule another "class" with him in the next two weeks.

I don't think it is obvious that potassium bicarbonate would direct itself into cells, just because potassium ion concentrations are higher inside cells, and sodium ion concentrations higher outside cells.

When potassium bicarbonate is dissolved in water (and the blood), it dissociates into potassium ions and bicarbonate ions. In water, these ions roam around independently, so would not carry the bicarbonate ion with them when the ion pumps on the cellular membrane pull these potassium ions into the cell.

This study found that a small percentage of both sodium and potassium bicarbonate did not dissociate in water, but remained as a whole molecule. However, even in this case, I am not sure if the ion pumps are capable of pulling in an entire potassium bicarbonate molecule into the cell.



I would certainly be interested in why your biochemist says that rubidium can neutralize acidity inside a cell.

I found this study interesting: rubidium chloride in the treatment of major depression.