Acetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
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This is probably way off topic but I was researching sodium bicarbonate in a round about kind of way. I was trying to find a natural ACE inhibitor and stumbled upon SB. It's very interesting that it could be used for PEM as well. I don't have PEM anymore, but I have NO issues which I think may be related to ammonia, or histamines. It seems to all fit together somehow.
How related to ammonia, drob?

Among my very 1st symptoms was sudden hypertension and I couldn't generate my usual exercise induced NO anymore.

I don't have PEM anymore, either. And I know that histamine is one of my major devils - as with anything mast cells.
 

Sherpa

Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie
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I think it is extremely common in mitochondrial illnesses, aging, and CFS to have SOD levels that are far below normal. Get an oxidative stress panel done. Mine showed SOD levels that were frightening...just in the toilet.

I didn't run a test but have SOD SNPs and many symptoms of low SOD. I am taking Extramel French melon extract and I find it energizing, PEM reducing, increased sun tolerance
 

pemone

Senior Member
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448
I don't want to drag the thread off-topic so I'll just add a couple of brief comments. With ME/CFS it's really easy to make yourself worse with incorrect assumptions and supplements that stem from those. Based on your comments about having tried to raise NO and believing we are suffering from excess NADH, i.e. reductive stress, I think there is a danger of making yourself sicker because shifting the redox state in an even less favourable direction is the worst thing you could do in this illness since it is the core pathology we're all trying to address. I would recommend familiarising yourself with Paul Cheney's thoughts on the redox issue and the methodology he has used to study this in his patients and what happens when he gives them supplemental oxygen or supplements commonly recommended around here like fish oil, methylcobalamin, 5-MTHF etc. I don't have any handy links since he doesn't publish anything; it's all lectures or transcripts of conversations he's had with his patients. Martin Pall's work on NO/ONOO is also very important.

Can you post links to Cheney's thoughts?

It is important that the oxidation and redox be BALANCED. Too much of either is bad. The problem with the CFS literature is that everyone talks theories all day long, and none of it gets reduced to clinical guidance. Saying that everyone is overly reduced, or everyone is overly oxidized, is advice that is worth what you paid for it.

What I am saying is TEST your redox balance. If you are overly reduced, experiment with oxidants. If you are overly oxidized, I struggle to understand how you have CFS in the first place, because apparently your electron transport chain (which drives aerobic metabolism) is chugging along very well.

If a person is overly reduced, they have low NAD+ Low NAD+ will downregulate all kinds of metabolic processes, including by the way glycolysis. How can it be healthy for anyone to live with an NAD+/NADH ratio of 200 when the average person has a ratio 500 to 2000?

Sadly, as you've already discovered with low carb and random ALA dosing, people with CFS and those predisposed to develop it are far from robust and sometimes never recover from some seemingly banal experiments/supplements/meds so all I can say is be careful.

Yes, but just as sad is that people do things that benefit them and abandon them because they had no way to measure a result and relied on subjective feeling alone.

Regarding the microbiome, there is an emerging and pretty compelling literature that it is involved in all kinds of chronic disease and I can't possibly summarise it here. Genova and other currently available commercial tests are worthless since the likely problem isn't some huge pathogen in the gut but rather an absence of key anaerobic species that produce butyrate among many other functions. There is a whole subforum here on PR about the gut where you can get a lot of useful information.

How can we take action on a hypothesis we cannot test?
 
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pemone

Senior Member
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Hi @pone, no I don't have a link handy. I think it was discussed in a video conference last year, but I am not sure the paper is published yet.

I started to reply earlier but needed to do some research to be sure what I was saying was accurate.

With regard to 2,3 bisphosphoglycerate, there was an interest in this in the late 90s but repeated testing (probably unpublished) could not confirm a deficiency. If this is normal then lactic acidosis is not present. In fact, privately, I was informed that repeat lab testing shows high 2,3bpg, which indicates alkalinity not acidity. However as a marker this is a time average .. it indicates (indirectly) average blood pH . Spot pH will depend on activity, and the activity we use to get a test done may make us acidic. So only in a fully rested state will we get to see alkalinity, and even then not until a while after activity stops.

For research purposes bisphosphoglycerate sounds great. But why make this more complex than it needs to be? If you consistently pee acidic urine, there is clearly some spillover from the blood to the kidneys, and you are seeing a time delayed effect. It might be about the system's buffers more than actual blood acidity, but the bottom line is taking sodium bicarb has been confirmed by many of us to correct whatever is broken.

Try it. You'll like it. :)


We will indeed produce lactic acid, but its not that we are stuck in glycolysis but the Krebs cycle cannot ramp up to meet need. Why this is happening is still being debated and investigated. There are lots of theories, and most have some evidence for them. It may also be that several theories are right but its combinations of things or right for different subgroups.

It's the same thing. If you cannot run Krebs cycle, you rely on glycolysis. You are stuck in glycolysis and rely on it for energy. We are saying the same thing and playing with words.

I'm very clear on what is happening in this disease. By one of many possible mechanisms, the electron transport chain is breaking. Only downregulation of the electron transport chain could explain catastrophic loss of ATP and catastrophic downregulation of NAD+/NADH.

Hypoxia and carbon monoxide poisoning have both been considered in ME.

What can break the electron transport chain?

* Sure, hypoxia is a great idea. Is enough O2 getting to the mitochondrial membranes to support Complex IV in ETC. But in my case I have great O2 saturation as measured by an O2 meter on finder. I tried to take nattokinase to improve bloodflow. I raised nitric oxide which should also improve blood flow and O2 delivery. Those things might improve me about 15%. They don't fix anything.

* Any of the four complexes in the ETC can be broken. In my case, the working hypothesis is that mercury replaced iron sulfur complexes in the proteins of my ETC, breaking it.

Once you downregulate ATP and NAD+, all kinds of chaos happen to you. You fail to make enzymes and proteins and all kinds of energy and NAD+ driven processes. This by itself might explain 90% of the other symptoms and frailties people get with CFS.

To me the hallmark of CFS is the energy collapse and the PEM. And that MUST trace to collapse of the ETC. Find the reason for that collapse and fix it, and everything else will rebalance.
 

pemone

Senior Member
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448
I have just realised that I have a genetic polymorphism (SNP) in the eNOS gene. The SNP is
G894T, which according to some sources leads to less nitric oxide, so less smooth muscle relaxation, and reduced platelet activity. Other names and details re the SNP:
...
The recommendation I have been given for this SNP is to take more omega-3, and I am now, but am also on a beta blocker for seriously-high blood pressure. I have long wondered why I suddenly developed high BP after it being normal for decades, and about ten years after getting ME. Something must have affected/amplified the way the SNP affects me, or maybe removed/inhibited something that was countering it. I did become briefly borderline obese about five years before the hypertension was spotted, and was overweight for maybe a decade.

But I always suspected that the immediate cause of my high bp was excessive vasoconstriction. Shame some/most doctors appear to have no interest in the cause of things and just throw drugs at them in a random way.

Looks like I could do with something that boosts nitric oxide.

Someone just take a gun and shoot the allopathic medical industry. I mean Omega-3 to fix your nitric oxide? Wow.

As you say, they don't want to cure anything.

Research the foods that contain nitrates. Get the test strips. Start out slow and observe subjective feeling as well as measure nitrite levels on the strips. Scale up.

Do that for two months and I expect to see you back here with a smile on your face. It can make a dramatic difference in how you feel. It is not a cure for CFS, probably.
 

pemone

Senior Member
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448
I didn't run a test but have SOD SNPs and many symptoms of low SOD. I am taking Extramel French melon extract and I find it energizing, PEM reducing, increased sun tolerance

Which brand, and how much do you take?
 

alex3619

Senior Member
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Logan, Queensland, Australia
Only downregulation of the electron transport chain could explain catastrophic loss of ATP and catastrophic downregulation of NAD+/NADH.
False. Categorically. Its not the only possibilility at all, though it is a possibility. There may be nothing wrong with regulation or function of the electron transport chain. It could easily be somewhere else. Such as mitochondrial transporters. Or oxygen supply with tissue hypoxia.

What can be said, which you might be saying but not clearly enough, is that there is insufficient mitochondrial energy production. That does mean the ETC is not producing as much energy as we need, but it does not mean the problem is in the ETC, its regulation or function. Its a possibility, not a certainty.

I have used bicarb in the past and was not impressed, but that does not mean it wont work in combination with things I hadn't tried at the time. Very often we need combinations and single effects don't work as well as combination therapies. What is more interesting is to try bicarb in conjunction with increased activity. I have not tested this yet to see if it alters PEM for me.

Blood oxygen saturation is irrelevant in local tissue hypoxia. Its a deceptive figure. Its also irrelevant if oxygen is not properly dumping where needed, which can induce local tissue hypoxia. It tells you about the potential supply, but not if its used. Its indicative, nothing more. We need some way to measure our local oxygen and carbon dioxide in working muscle. We need some scan to measure small vessel perfusion in working muscle.

Now as to regulation, if its a regulation problem then its probably hormonally mediated, and by that I include immune hormones, at least in muscle. Its less clear about the brain. I would bet its eicosanoid mediated, but that could easily be wrong.

I would not want to rule out viral toxin mediation though, or even mycotoxins, at least at this point.

Detox issues can also do it. It turns out (and I have not investigated the issue in depth) that even salicylates can cause issues leading to poor mitochondrial function. I wonder if this is a direct effect, or secondary due to eicosanoid imbalance. I may have to look into this.

One thing we cannot be sure of though is whether or not the mitochondrial problem is the primary problem. I very much doubt it. I think its secondary, but that its the primary cause of much of our pathophysiology.

Currently it looks like the primary pathophysiology is immune disregulation in the brain,, probably in the microglia. However the driving force could even be pathogens such as enteroviruses.

Its important not to prematurely confuse pathophysiology with causation. Treating pathophysiology treats symptoms, but if the root cause is not treated then even with improved symptoms you cannot achieve a cure. We now know a lot about pathophysiology but there are still a lot of potential theories out there about causation, even without considering the cause may be something we have not investigated yet ... that is if there is a single cause and not many or a combination effect.

The simple analogy is that energy production is a long chain. We know there is a break in the chain, but that could be anywhere in that chain. In reality its more like a complex chain of spaghetti web, with loops, only linear in parts. The ETC is a few links in the chain, not the whole chain. We do know that glycolysis is working though, as we make lactate in abundance.

I do expect that supporting the electron transport chain will help, and the research indicates that both CoQ10 and NADH are helpful. I do wonder if SOD would help, and of ways to boost it.

One thing I don't think is very helpful is ATP. Ribose should be much more effective as a supplement. An entire bottle of ATP pills would give you enough energy for only a few minutes, though it would boost the substrate pool. Ribose also boosts AMP and ADP synthesis, but much more cheaply.
 

Sherlock

Boswellia for lungs and MC stabllizing
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I have used bicarb in the past and was not impressed, but that does not mean it wont work in combination with things I hadn't tried at the time. Very often we need combinations and single effects don't work as well as combination therapies. What is more interesting is to try bicarb in conjunction with increased activity. I have not tested this yet to see if it alters PEM for me.
anti-acid
anti-oxidant
anti-inflammatory
maybe a mild vasodilator, too, to try and get the above to where they are needed
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
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5,103
but that does not mean it wont work in combination with things I hadn't tried at the time. Very often we need combinations and single effects don't work as well as combination therapies.
For me transdermal bicarb worked with oral magnesium oxide
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,162
To me the hallmark of CFS is the energy collapse and the PEM. And that MUST trace to collapse of the ETC. Find the reason for that collapse and fix it, and everything else will rebalance.

You are equating the mental feeling of fatigue with reduced energy production due to mitochondrial dysfunction, and suggesting this is the only viable explanation of fatigue.

However, when you come down with an infection like the flu, and feel extremely fatigued and have all the symptoms found in sickness behavior (which are quite similar to those of ME/CFS), there is no mitochondrial dysfunction. So you can feel extremely fatigued and get many ME/CFS-like symptoms even when your mitochondria are working fine.
 

Hip

Senior Member
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18,162
Yet its fair to say there is an energy dysfunction. Sickness behaviour changes how we act, which reduces energy production. We have an actual reduction in energy generation.

I am not sure if any research has been done to determine whether in sickness behavior we feel fatigued and low in energy because the brain goes into a mode designed to make us feel that way, or whether there is a real physical shortage of energy in the body, perhaps because the body enters into an energy-conserving mode during infection, in order to save as much energy as possible for fighting the infection.

In other words, in sickness behavior, is there a real energy shortage making us feel fatigue, or is the the brain just "faking" the fatigue feeling, as part of the normal behavioral response to infection?
 

pemone

Senior Member
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448
False. Categorically. Its not the only possibilility at all, though it is a possibility. There may be nothing wrong with regulation or function of the electron transport chain. It could easily be somewhere else. Such as mitochondrial transporters. Or oxygen supply with tissue hypoxia.

NADH is converted to NAD+ in complex I of the electron transport chain. That is the only place that can make the conversion is large quantities. If the electron transport chain does not work, where is NADH getting converted to NAD+?

I just told you that hypoxia is one of the things that could break the ETC.

Mitochondrial transporters is a possibility, but the net effect is to break the electron transport chain, if you measure NAD+ / NADH as low.

Again, I am trying to establish the fundamental fact of the disease that the electron transport chain is in fact broken. You keep getting lost in detail.


What can be said, which you might be saying but not clearly enough, is that there is insufficient mitochondrial energy production. That does mean the ETC is not producing as much energy as we need, but it does not mean the problem is in the ETC, its regulation or function. Its a possibility, not a certainty.

So establish the fact that the energy is not being produced. How can you object to that? You keep using the fact that there are a dozen possible causes for an effect as a way to avoid making a commitment to the fact that the effect exists.

I am just saying measure the effect, establish the fact that ETC does not work, and then work back to details from that.


I have used bicarb in the past and was not impressed, but that does not mean it wont work in combination with things I hadn't tried at the time. Very often we need combinations and single effects don't work as well as combination therapies. What is more interesting is to try bicarb in conjunction with increased activity. I have not tested this yet to see if it alters PEM for me.

For me, and for the people it has worked for, bicarb works by itself. It makes a three day living-hell of PEM into a four hour episode. It's dramatic; it's quick; and it doesn't need any other supporting element.

Blood oxygen saturation is irrelevant in local tissue hypoxia. Its a deceptive figure. Its also irrelevant if oxygen is not properly dumping where needed, which can induce local tissue hypoxia. It tells you about the potential supply, but not if its used. Its indicative, nothing more. We need some way to measure our local oxygen and carbon dioxide in working muscle. We need some scan to measure small vessel perfusion in working muscle.

Understood, but I am establishing in the pathway that I take in enough oxygen. I thinned my blood to allow better bloodflow. I used nitric oxide to dilute my vessels. If you think up a way to measure O2 in complex IV of the ETC let us know. In the meantime, I did what can be reasonably done to make sure my cells get oxygen and it did not fix things in a major way.

One thing we cannot be sure of though is whether or not the mitochondrial problem is the primary problem. I very much doubt it. I think its secondary, but that its the primary cause of much of our pathophysiology.

Before you take the time to figure out the ultimate cause, establish the fact of the effect. I read lots of stories here from people who do not have PEM, probably do not have compromised aerobic metabolism (based on symptoms they describe), and therefore probably do not have CFS.

I do expect that supporting the electron transport chain will help, and the research indicates that both CoQ10 and NADH are helpful. I do wonder if SOD would help, and of ways to boost it.

NADH should hurt not help. If ETC does not work NADH piles up from outputs of the krebs cycle. It is NAD+ we need. A person in a highly reduced state with low NAD+/NADH needs oxidants, in absence of a functioning ETC.


One thing I don't think is very helpful is ATP. Ribose should be much more effective as a supplement. An entire bottle of ATP pills would give you enough energy for only a few minutes, though it would boost the substrate pool. Ribose also boosts AMP and ADP synthesis, but much more cheaply.

Of course yes.
 
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pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
You are equating the mental feeling of fatigue with reduced energy production due to mitochondrial dysfunction, and suggesting this is the only viable explanation of fatigue.

However, when you come down with an infection like the flu, and feel extremely fatigued and have all the symptoms found in sickness behavior (which are quite similar to those of ME/CFS), there is no mitochondrial dysfunction. So you can feel extremely fatigued and get many ME/CFS-like symptoms even when your mitochondria are working fine.

No I am not equating the feeling of fatigue with reduced energy production. The whole point of my post is that I am MEASURING decreased ETC function, and I am basing my actions on those measurements.

The point I am making is to NOT rely on your subjective feeling of exhaustion as a way of classifying the cause. That would ultimately mislead you.

If you have CFS, there is no reason you would not want to establish that your ETC does or does not work, and knowing that will make all the difference in how you pursue a cure.

If you had a flu-like onset to the disease, that is not a reason to not establish the effect. Either your aerobic metabolism works or it does not. Test it. Establish the fact of it working or not working, and then you can work backwards.
 

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
I take Seeking Health's SOD - 1/2 capsule every A.M. is working so far.

The manufacturer of Extramel - the microencapsulated MElon extract rich in SOD - says 140 i.u. a day of SOD is a good adult dose. These caps are 300 i.u. I would like to try the full dose but I'm going slow.

I'm taking in the PM and have not noticed any effect. Do you feel like it immediately has some stimulative effect? Maybe I should follow you and take in morning?
 
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