Acetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise

[Sherlock]

@Sherlock I bingo-ed the triangle + a few +/- Hypercoagulability SNPs + the pill

I saw you mention heparin - which by the way gets harvested from animal lungs and intestines, from their mast cells.

Do you take any natural blood thinners? Fish oil, vit E, even cinnamon e.g ? Avoid excess vit K from leafy greens, broccoli? Take herb analogues of warfarin (natural coumarins)?

 

[Gondwanaland]

I saw you mention heparin - which by the way gets harvested from animal lungs and intestines, from their mast cells.

I had no idea That is why I got so much pain after leaving the hospital. Later I was able to associate the same pain to autoimmune triggers like gluten, and more recently to flax seeds, psyllium and whatnot.

Do you take any natural blood thinners? Fish oil, vit E, even cinnamon e.g ? Avoid excess vit K from leafy greens, broccoli? Take herb analogues of warfarin (natural coumarins)?

I can't live w/o fishoil or vit E.
I crave salads and high vit K food in general (folate?) and just experimented with vit K2 MK-4
Will look into coumarins, thanks for the hint!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wonder if all the pain I have since the heparin in 2011 isn't derived from high vit K food like... gluten, flax seeds and psyllium?

Coumarin
Metabolism in humans
The enzyme encoded by the gene UGT1A8 has glucuronidase activity with many substrates including coumarins.

23andMe lists a TON of SNPs for the UGT1A8 gene... I wonder what DD, DI, II and no call mean.

 

[Sherlock]

I wonder if all the pain I have since the heparin in 2011 isn't derived from high vit K food like... gluten, flax seeds and psyllium?

It seems there is something called post-thrombotic syndrome.


FWIW, the standard view of it: http://www.webmd.com/dvt/tc/post-thrombotic-syndrome-topic-overview

How is it treated?
You may need to wear specially fitted compression stockings to treat PTS. These may help with pain and swelling. If you have sores, you may need medicines and bandages to help the sores heal.

Your doctor may prescribe pain medicines. Propping up your leg may reduce pain and swelling.

Seems to be based on vein damage, not remnant cotting.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Seems to be based on vein damage, not remnant cotting.

I don't have either of those, no swelling. I think it's more autoimmune related...
Compression stockings are of no use, my legs are too thin for those and not swollen. But they are always up in the desk (histamine issues).
My pain has been transiently suppressed by gluten free diet, mB12 and magnesium protocol. Trying RS (PS) and psyllium brought it back big time :thumbdown: Even worse now with K2. I still have some unopened LAG to try

 

[MeSci]

I never got sustained benefit from probx. I feel that both prebx and probx are immunostimulants and harmful to me right now (trigger inflammation).

My feeling towards S. boulardii is that it transiently reduces the gut flora diversity, and the only time it helped was for the 1st time I took it - every other day for 2 weeks. My suggestion is to take it once and see if you get benefits. No need to fear it, since it does not repopulate. It's like a flush (I can attest to that). And to stick to the topic, it reduces circulating histamines and acidity.

I try to stay away from pharma drugs as much I as can now. Most of my symptoms could be attributed to their side effects (anti-acids, cipro & other abx, warfarin, accutane etc.). I can account for 2 occasions when they have been helpful though: metronidazole put my rosacea into remission and heparin saved my life.

You mean flush out the gut flora? I don't want to do that - it took me ages to get the balance right. I don't want to evict my mates!

It may be that my polyuria wasn't histamine-related. It's gone for now - I just have the desmo-responsive type.

I also avoid pharma except for the few drugs that I know and trust. I do a lot of research before trying a new one, like the beta blocker I requested instead of the ACE inhibitor that had given me hyponatraemia, which was no small thing - could potentially have killed me.

Anyway, sodium bicarb doesn't seem to help with my other polyuria - there - back on track - just! I may need to start tweaking the doses as suggested by @alex3619 et al. I do usually have a larger dose after lunch in anticipation of relatively high activity, and I made it even larger today (meaning smaller doses at other times - no change in overall amount).

 

[MeSci]

Glad you got through it okay. There was a big publicity push in 2008 by the US Surgeon General:
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/calls/index.html
The Surgeon General's Call to Action to Prevent Deep Vein Thrombosis and Pulmonary Embolism
and
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/119/15/e480.full

Does anybody remember the guy from Jethro Tull who stood on one leg while playing the flute? He got a DVT in one leg a few years ago from a long plane flight..

Oh yes - seen them live - brilliant! He's called Ian Anderson.

Whoops - how can we tie that in to the thread topic...?

 

[Sherlock]

I don't have either of those, no swelling. I think it's more autoimmune related...
Compression stockings are of no use, my legs are too thin for those and not swollen. But they are always up in the desk (histamine issues).
My pain has been transiently suppressed by gluten free diet, mB12 and magnesium protocol. Trying RS (PS) and psyllium brought it back big time :thumbdown: Even worse now with K2. I still have some unopened LAG to try

Do you mean autoimmune as in mediated by antibodies or autoreactve T-cells? Or do you mean what I'd think of as autoinflammatory where an allergy/sensitivity reaction raises overall inflammation and stirs up old problems all over?

If the latter, maybe histamine is causing vasodilation and the resulting bradykinin is causing the pain?

 

[Gondwanaland]

You mean flush out the gut flora? I don't want to do that - it took me ages to get the balance right. I don't want to evict my mates!

Like in the homeopathic principle, yeast fights yeast

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think I will have to look carefully into this:

I saw you mention heparin - which by the way gets harvested from animal lungs and intestines, from their mast cells.

I see a vit K connection here.

 

[Sherlock]

Oh yes - seen them live - brilliant! He's called Ian Anderson.

Whoops - how can we tie that in to the thread topic...?

How about if I throw in the phrase "[something] Benefits PEM"? (get it?)


[edit: while there are those who cannot and should not exercise, I hope that those on the cusp see this thread so that they can Benefit ]

 

[MeSci]

Like in the homeopathic principle, yeast fights yeast

I don't have a yeast problem AFAIK.

 

[MeSci]

How about if I throw in the phrase "[something] Benefits PEM"? (get it?)

Ah yes - and when I get post-nasal drip (part of PEM?) it's like having Aqua-lung. Anyone not familiar with Jethro Tull - don't worry if that makes no sense.

 

[Gondwanaland]

How about if I throw in the phrase "[something] Benefits PEM"? (get it?)

The pain I am referring to I get all the time from just doing nothing or sleeping and is related to stuff I eat or supplement, so I am the one off-topic here as usual

I don't have a yeast problem AFAIK.

I didn't think I had either

 

[jimells]

Lactic acidosis takes time to develop. Julia Newton's work suggests we are highly acidic during and after exercise, but excessively alkaline at rest (one of our adaptations?). Lactic acidosis increases oxygen dumping in the short term as acidic conditions increase oxygen release from red blood cells.

The early (prodromal) state for migraines is alkaline-anaerobic-anabolic stress, which shows in non-inflammed individuals as an alkaline trend in the urine which reaches an alkaline threshold (a different pH reading in each individual), at which time prostaglandins are produced to quickly acidify the body/blood stream and produce the full-blown migraine symptoms.

@swfowkes are you suggesting that the rapid change in pH is what causes the migraine symptoms? Migraine attacks are the absolute bane of my life. They are the primary symptom of PEM for me. They almost always start about 4 - 7 AM and wake me up. And now I'm reading that I am likely already excessively alkaline before the diurnal cycle makes urine even more alkaline, which causes a sudden acidification reaction, which causes the awful migraine symptoms. Ughh. This is an ugly picture.

Well. Tomorrow there will be another 8 inches of snow on the ground. Before I go out to push it around (I have a pickup with a plow) I'll try some baking soda and Co Q10. Yum.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The solution was to eat large quantities of nitrate rich foods.

I find that I must limit my intake of high nitrate foods. I don't understand the implications of it yet.

 

[zzz]

I find that I must limit my intake of high nitrate foods. I don't understand the implications of it yet.

Nitrates can produce nitric oxide, and too much NO leads to the NO/ONOO cycle (Dr. Martin Pall's "No! Oh no!), producing peroxynitrite.

Dr. Jay Goldstein also thinks that too much NO could be a central problem in ME/CFS.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@zzz Thanks, still beyond my understanding
Will have to do my homework on this one

 

[pemone]

I have never looked into that (I have thin blood). You probably know that:
CFS is known for rouleaux (stacked) RBCs.

How does this get diagnosed and what is the consequence?

That the worst danger of nattokinase Rx would be from an intracranial bleed.
That a non-CAD non-CVA danger of hypercoagulable blood would be DVT/PE a la' Virchow's Triangle --- also perchance involving immobility from e.g. PEM

Yeah, I am probably taking on some risk by thinning my fibrin without knowing what to test later to track effects.

Can you explain the other comment about non-CAD non-CVA danger?

The thing is, I don't actually have proof that I am hypercoagulable do I? There was no bleeding study done for me. What was done was a sedimentation rate test, and this is normally used to assess inflammation. If the blood is not viscous and particles fall through quickly, this is a marker of high inflammation. My blood was at the far end of the other range, which one osteopath commented meant that my blood is "thick". That's not the way the test is normally used probably.

 

[pemone]

Nitrates can produce nitric oxide, and too much NO leads to the NO/ONOO cycle (Dr. Martin Pall's "No! Oh no!), producing peroxynitrite.

Dr. Jay Goldstein also thinks that too much NO could be a central problem in ME/CFS.

Can you point to a page where he lays out his argument for that?

I think he has a steep hill to climb. Nitrates/nitrites should be pro oxidants, and someone with broken electron transport chain will benefit just from some conversion of NADH to NAD+. Dilation of vessels should improve oxygen delivery to deep tissues. And some researchers thing nitric oxide at night helps to speed up mitochondrial turnover.

For NO to be harmful, the person would need to have high NAD+/NADH ratios, and I don't believe such a person would be experiencing an energy collapse. Since NADH is converted to NAD+ in complex I of the electron transport chain, a high NAD+ would be evidence that the person's aerobic metabolism is intact.