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Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hanna, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. HealingSun

    HealingSun

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    Asklipia, did you have any concerns about the dyes & chemicals in the Glakay, especially as you took them for couple of years?

    Thanks for sharing your experience!
     
  2. fibrodude84

    fibrodude84 Senior Member

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    I have been supplementing with Mk7 for my osteoperosis for a while. Great for the bones but does nothing for my fatigued.

    for those who feel it helps id be curious to know what dose you take.
     
  3. Koan

    Koan Be the change.

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    I have been taking 240 mcg of MK7 for a few weeks (along with other supplements including D3, C, Cal/mag and strontium citrate) and have found a big difference in stamina and cognition. BIG. I walked 1.89 miles yesterday and 3.5 miles today. I walked 3 1/2 miles the day after walking nearly 2 miles! I am blown away. And, I am still thinking and functioning and I even took a shower when I got home. I have been walking 1.5 to 2 miles about every 3rd day for 3 weeks. This is a huge change for me. I can't attribute it to the MK 7 alone, as it may be the D or a combo, but I am trying to find an affordable source of MK4 to add that to the MK7 as I have not been this able for many years. So far, I have not crashed although there have been some brief near-crash like episodes. When not out walking I am quiet and usually reclining but able to cook and compute.

    I'm hopeful. Very hopeful.
     
  4. Blooze

    Blooze

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    I have been taking K2 MK7 for over a year with high dose D3 but I think I have been doing myself more harm than good due to a lack of understanding of how vitamin A plays a vital role with D3. I came across this info that seems to explain this well so I thought I'd share it here. http://www.westonaprice.org/health-...-a-sixty-two-year-old-mystery-finally-solved/
     
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  5. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @Koan: How are you? Any updates?

    I found this a little bit back. It seems interesting because it might explain why high doses of vit K might be warranted for those of us with a disease involving chronic inflammation. My apologies if this has been covered already:

    Antioxidant effect of vitamin K homologues on ascorbic acid/Fe(2+)-induced lipid peroxidation of lecithin liposomes.
    Ohyashiki T1, Yabunaka Y, Matsui K.
    1991

    Abstract
    The effects of vitamin K homologues (K1, K2 and K3) on lipid peroxidation of lecithin liposomes induced by ascorbic acid and ferrous ion were examined...vitamins K1 and K2 inhibited the lipid peroxidation, as did UQ-10, with the order of effectiveness: UQ-10 greater than K2 greater than K1. By contrast, vitamin K3 had no inhibitory effect on ascorbic acid/Fe(2+)-induced lipid peroxidation of the liposomes...From these results, it is suggested that the inhibitory effect of these vitamins is mainly involved in termination of radical-chain reaction. Experimental results using several radical scavengers and/or antioxidants supported this interpretation.


    Also this article:

    Novel Role of Vitamin K in Preventing Oxidative Injury to Developing Oligodendrocytes and Neurons

    2003

    Although vitamin K is not a classical antioxidant, we report here the novel finding that vitamin K1 and K2 (menaquinone-4) potently inhibit glutathione depletion-mediated oxidative cell death in primary cultures of oligodendrocyte precursors and immature fetal cortical neurons...The mechanism by which vitamin K blocks oxidative injury is independent of its only known biological function as a cofactor for gamma-glutamylcarboxylase, an enzyme responsible for posttranslational modification of specific proteins. Neither oligodendrocytes nor neurons possess significant vitamin K-dependent carboxylase or epoxidase activity. Furthermore, the vitamin K antagonists warfarin and dicoumarol and the direct carboxylase inhibitor 2-chloro-vitamin K1have no effect on the protective function of vitamin K against oxidative injury. Vitamin K does not prevent the depletion of intracellular glutathione caused by cystine deprivation but completely blocks free radical accumulation and cell death. The protective and potent efficacy of this naturally occurring vitamin, with no established clinical side effects, suggests a potential therapeutic application in preventing oxidative damage to undifferentiated oligodendrocytes in perinatal hypoxic/ischemic brain injury.

    So Vit K in and of itself is an antioxidant that protects cell (or mitochondrial?) membranes. This could explain why very high doses might be necessary (with all our inflammation, it gets used up quickly), and also why it seemed to help Asklipia so much--well, that and pulling calcium out of circulation so it doesn't potentiate glutamate excitotoxicity.
     
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  6. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @Blooze: Excellent article!

    Googling around, I found this further article, also by Chris Masterjohn at the Weston A Price Foundation, where he explores undercarboxylated osteocalcin as a hormone (in contrast to his view from the earlier article). This article is from 2013, and the former one was from 2007. Because I learn by explaining what I just read, here is a short discussion:

    First: The following is...perhaps not entirely essential to our discussion, although it is possible that it could touch on vitamin K toxicity issues (although Masterjohn doesn't mention it outright). It certainly seems like our understanding is still evolving, and some of the speculation is just that: speculation.

    One summary of the whole article might be: Masterjohn now thinks he was wrong in saying that osteocalcin in bone matrix makes it stronger. He now thinks that some osteocalcin (the undercarboxylated form) is probably a hormone that influences testosterone and insulin, at least. He does not challenge the idea that vitamin A and D work together to get our bodies to make proteins that need vitamin k to activate*. He does not challenge the idea that one of these proteins, matrix Gla protein, needs vitamin k to pull calcium from circulation and into our bones. The article is all about osteocalcin, which he didn't really know what it did before anyways.

    Vitamin k carboxylates osteocalcin, which in effect deactivates the version of it that we strongly suspect is a hormone and turns it into something that might or might not interfere with the "hormone" version, but does get put into bone matrix. So at first glance less vitamin k should mean higher undercarboxylated osteocalcin (the putative hormonal form), which would mean higher testosterone and higher insulin sensitivity (a good thing). However,

    Rats on vitamin K-deficient diets develop poor glucose tolerance (19). There is some weak indication, conversely, that vitamin K2 supplementation in humans with poor status improves glucose and insulin metabolism (20). Vitamin K1 or K2 supplementation in rats, moreover, lowers body fatness (21) and vitamin K2 supplementation increases testosterone (22).​

    I believe his conclusion ends up being that we get our hormonally active osteocalcin from bone resorption (taking bones apart...it happens all the time to a greater or lesser extent). Earlier, Masterjohn says that mice without the gene to make osteocalcin had a normal amount of bone mineralization, but different organization of mineral deposits. So perhaps part of what vitamin k supplementation is doing is putting osteocalcin back in our bones so that it can be released slowly in the hormonally active form.

    Which is all to say that if you want vitamin K to raise testosterone or improve glucose tolerance...well it is hard to say, but *possibly* there are some benefits that will come slowly, as we replace our bones.

    I think also that if one were to experience a problematic increase in hypoglycemia-type symptoms while taking a lot of vitamin K, it might be a sign that you are taking too much. Just speculating.


    *In an article he also published in 2007 in Medical Hypotheses, he hypothesizes that "vitamin A protects against the toxicity of vitamin D by decreasing the expression of vitamin K-dependent proteins." Anyone know if he still thinks this?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
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  7. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    From the Article Blooze Found (Emphases Added)

    Price administered a daily meal of nutrient-dense whole foods supplemented with high-vitamin cod liver oil and high-Activator X butter oil to the children of impoverished mill workers who suffered from rampant tooth decay. The treatment not only resolved the tooth decay without the need for oral surgery, but resolved chronic fatigue in one boy and by the report of their school teachers produced a marked increase in learning capacity in two others.​

    Of course, we don't know that this chronic fatigue was the same as ME/CFS. But interesting nonetheless.

    The K vitamins perform all of their well understood roles in the part of the cell responsible for the modification of proteins. Only a portion of the vitamin K within a cell exists in this area, however. Even more exists in the inner membrane of the mitochondria where the cell produces its energy. The greatest concentration exists in the nucleus, which possesses a receptor for vitamin K that may be involved in regulating the expression of genes. Vitamin K2 has a greater affinity than vitamin K1 for both the mitochondrial membrane and the nuclear receptor. We presently know virtually nothing about these functions.​

    Further supporting the idea that those of us with a mitochondrial encephalopathy will need way more vitamin k.

    MK-9, and presumably MK-7, stays in the blood for a longer period of time than does MK-4, but this appears to be because tissues take up MK-4 much more rapidly.​

    First off, lets highlight that he is only presuming that MK-7 is treated like MK-9. He also presumed to know the function of osteocalcin in this article and then backtracked a few years later. But @fibrodude84, I believe that Asklipia's success was taking MK-4, not MK-7 (which didn't work for her), so perhaps there is a difference. And (I know this is a bit late) I believe the dosages she used herself--that are not a specific recommendation for anyone to do the same--were gradually working up to 15 mg, and then after some months moving up to 45 mg. Also, she mentioned something about therapies being 45 mg per day for a 45 kg person. Again, this is not medical advice of any kind! As you probably noticed, some people have had bad reactions. So proceed with caution.


    How One *Might* Remedy Adverse Reactions to High Dose MK-4

    For good measure, and because I am about to start taking larger doses of vitamin K and would like to be prepared for adverse reactions: @yukito reported pain in chest and fingers, fatigue, sadness, and (unspecified in my notes) eye and heart problems associated with beginning high doses of MK-4. He overcame this by making sure to take some combination of:
    • Methylfolate (I would add that B2 might actually be what got depleted--it is necessary to...recharge both methylfolate and vitamin k, so B2 might work instead);
    • Calcium (150 mg per day); magnesium; and vitamin D: Magnesium is necessary to activate vitamin D, vitamin d increases absorption of calcium, so all of these raise calcium, which the vitamin k activated proteins would presumably need. Perhaps the pain and heart issues came from an electrolyte imbalance. More speculatively, perhaps the pain in bones (that @BrushedBrass reported reading about here) came from some extraordinary measures that the body took to break down bones in order provide enough calcium for all the vitamin k-dependent proteins that are suddenly sucking it up. Of course, too much vitamin d or calcium would probably not be pleasant either--they give me migraines!
    • Retinol (Vitamin A); I imagine this would help because it would slow many of the (non-antioxidant) functions of vitamin K, lowering the body's sudden need for calcium.
    • B12, carnitine, manganese, and possibly potassium. These I don't have any ideas as to how they would help. Anyone else?
    Feel free to add or correct anything I left out, Yukito! (And to fill us in on any doses you remember)

    Question for @Asklipia

    I have in my notes that you warn not to take vitamin k with glutamate containing things (like gelatin) because it will inactivate vitamin k. Would you be willing to share where you get this? From my reading of this bit of the appendix of Masterjohn's paper, it seems like glutamate plays an important role in allowing vitamin k to do its job and it might be more accurate to say that vitamin k uses up glutamate.

    Figure 3. Vitamin K-Dependent Carboxylation
    [​IMG]

    a.) A carbon dioxide molecule
    b.) a carboxyl group
    c.) Vitamin K-dependent carboxylation

    The vitamin K-dependent carboxylase rearranges the chemical bonds within carbon dioxide molecules. Carboxyl groups contain carbon and oxygen atoms and carry a charge of negative one. Calcium carries a charge of positive two. The side chains of the amino acid glutamate normally carry one carboxyl group; the vitamin K-dependent addition of a second carboxyl group gives these side chains a charge of negative two and thus allows them to bind to calcium, which has the equal and opposite charge. This process transforms glutamate into γ-carboxyglutamate, abbreviated Gla.​

    I can certainly see that if the immediate thing that vitamin k did for one was to reduce glutamate excitotoxicity, then taking something with glutamate alongside vitamin k would in that sense be counterproductive. But would you agree that glutamate does not "inactivate" vitamin k, or is there something I am missing or misunderstanding entirely?

    [EDIT: Just in case the above makes it seem like I am suggesting we ingest a bit more glutamate: It seems reasonable to assume that in cases of vitamin k deficiency, glutamate would not be the limiting factor in vitamin-k dependent glutamate carboxylation. This means that adding glutamate would not increase the actions of vitamin k noticeably. At best, taking more glutamate to increase vitamin-k dependent carboxylation would do nothing, and at worse I can see it causing excitotoxicity symptoms.]

    All of the above assertions by Chris Masterjohn (all of the indented quotes) cited publications. If you would like to see the details, please check out Blooze's link to Masterjohn's excellent article. Finally, I have said it before but it bears repeating: I do not have a medical degree of any kind and I am not offering any kind of medical advice.

    I took my first 4 mg of just MK-4 tonight. If all goes well, I will up my dose soonish. Wish me luck!
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    South America
    @aaron_c please keep us updated.

    I haven't read this whole topic yet, but will before choosing a vitamin from iHerb (inclined to go with Thorne).

    As a former DVT patient (took warfarin for 1.5 years) I am sure I need vit K2 urgently, especially b/c I have been taking vit E for almost one year now. Warfarin clearly played a central role in my health decline.

    I am +/- for Factor V Leiden (trombophilia) and will have to look carefully on how to balance vit E and K2.
     
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @aaron_c Thank you for putting your thoughts about Vitamin K in such a detailed post and reviving this thread.
    I did recover (I think) completely and Vitamin K was a big element in this. Because there are whole areas of my life which I had to abandon because of my illness, I have now turned back to try to straighten out the past paralysed mess of my life and I have stopped posting to focus on forging ahead!:)
    Unfortunately, I do not have a medical background and all I related along the way comes under either reporting the research of others (admittedly not understanding it perfectly) or describing as much as I could what had happened to me (and I did this as truthfully as I was able to).
    I am sorry that I did not keep notes for this.
    1- You will probably find the explanation for this if you look for "anti-K vitamin", "AK vitamin", "VK".
    There is a whole lot of studies that try to confuse AK and K. I believe that it is with the ultimate goal to try to defuse a potential bomb : ingesting MSG and such anti-K products is not harmless, it is like taking rat poison in fact.
    From what I understood the carboxylation based on the wrong glutamate created compounds which are useless to the body, a burden for the liver to process and evacuate, and depletes the body of whatever it needs to do its job when real glutamate is around.
    All glutamates are not equal.
    As you say, vitamin K uses up glutamate, but you could say the reverse, that is glutamate uses up vitamin K. If it is producing anti-K instead this is not good.

    2- As to the osteocalcin balance, it seems now that vitamin K is a regulator. In the same way that it is not the "clotting" vitamin but the vitamin that regulates clotting.
    We stopped taking it when we felt we were not growing anymore! I did grow more than 3 cms in height.

    I think we were cured because we came out of Vitamin-K deficiency. Due to fake glutamates being so widely available in today's food supply, due most probably too to an over supply of glutamate being formed in the gut by glutamate-producing beasties. I think the overdose of fake folates/glutamates reduce the captors for folates and induce a kind of starvation. Our intake of MK-4 got us out of that (and yes, it does induce at B2 deficiency).

    The interesting thing is, we stopped taking extra K2 a good while ago. Now that all we supplement with is probiotics (VSL3, clostridium butyricum, L. plantarum), we seem to get the same effects! Which would tend to show that the (bad glutamate) producing bacteria are getting phased out, enough not to create any visible trouble! However eating any fake folate brings back symptoms after a few days (not immediately - we just get that crazy manic high that most people seem to favour nowadays!).

    I wish you good luck!:) Please be careful with glutamate :devil::devil:. Take it easy! This of course in not a medical recommendation.
    Best wishes,
    Asklipia
     
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  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    South America
    Do you know anything about Saccharomyces boulardii flushing the Clostridia strains out of the body? When I took S. boulardii for the 1st time it helped, but then it seems be of no help at all anymore - on the contrary!
     
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    No I am sorry, Maybe you should ask this on another thread?
     
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Asklipia could you please share where you get the C. butiricum? Please apologize if you have already shared before.
     
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Japanese. Miyarisan. There is also some in AOR Probiotic-3
     
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  14. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland: Would you be willing to share what symptoms the S. Boulardii relieved and what symptoms it exacerbated?

    @Asklipia: I can't seem to find any studies describing what you have described about vitamin k and monosodium glutamate. It sounds quite reasonable to me (for whatever that's worth...), but I haven't found anything published in English.

    As far as "anti-k" or "anti-vitamin-k" references, I only find references to warfarin and other drugs that interfere with vitamin k recycling. It sounds like you are describing a different mechanism with a similar end (less active vitamin k)--so I think I understand what you mean when you say that glutamate uses up vitamin k. But it seems like "monosodium glutamate uses up vitamin k," would be much more accurate. As you say, not all glutamates are created equal. :)

    I do understand that either glutamate or vitamin k could be said to use up the other. Please see the (labeled as such) edit of my previous post for a better explanation of what I was trying to say. I am sorry that my somewhat arbitrary "correction" of your explanation was not really clear.

    Of course, the idea of vitamin k using up glutamate might be wrong. The carboxylation might occur only on proteins for which vitamin k has no regulatory effect, meaning that the only difference vitamin k makes is whether these proteins get activated or not, not whether we create more of them and in doing so use up more glutamate.

    Finally: I hope you can share what the "same effects" are that you experience from probiotics. I am curious what symptoms you might still have that would need to be treated even in such a minor way.

    Thank you so much!
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
  15. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    This is not a question of symptoms that need to be treated, but rather of effects.
    Because we took MK4 for such a long time, we are very aware of the effects and could recognize them.
    The probiotics bring about every few days a few things that MK4 brought :
    - teeth getting very smooth
    - calcium deposits around teeth detaching suddenly
    - very soft skin
    - sudden growth of hair/nails happening around 3 am
    - cracking at the base of the thumb when overextending the arm
    - no suntan when sunbathing
    - generally looking younger :thumbsup::balloons::thumbsup:

    There are some other effects of MK4 which do not seem to appear with the probiotics, and I suspect that this might be because these probiotics produce other types of vitamins that compensate for the surplus of vitamin K.

    I am not trying to treat symptoms in as you say "such a minor way". I have no symptoms left. However, having come out of this, and suspecting that there is a vitamin K/glutamate problem at the base of it, I am determined not to go back to the problem. Taking vitamin K for life is not a reasonable option I think. Taking supplements is not either. I am trying to find a way to balance perfectly the body, to reduce the sway and stay on even keel. I do not intend to stay on store-bought probiotics forever either, just for the pleasure of being able to eat what other people eat. Because I can clearly see that this disease is not the only bad outcome. I like playing with my life, and this excess of glutamates fries the brain, meaning less happiness. I am quite hooked to being happy first of all!
    I do not think that taking supplements is "a minor way". I think anything you take has an effect, and can push the body out of balance. I think probiotics are "a major way". So I shall stop taking them too.
    Best wishes!
    Asklipia
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014

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