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Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hanna, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. tamasaburo

    tamasaburo

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    Okay, dude. This K2 is scary stuff. Many people seem to be fine with a ton of it (especially MK4), and for other people (like me), it seems to give them dangerously high blood pressure, palpitations, and all kinds of problems. I'm pretty sure it caused me to develop retinal holes. What's the deal with this stuff? Everyone acts like it's so innocuous, but I would never have taken it in the first place if I knew there were any chance of such side effects.

    I will say, there may be some connection to vitamin D levels in terms of how one reacts. I had lowish levels (30) and they went even lower (20) after a week or two of K2, so it seems to sort of "burn" the vitamin D or increase the need for it. This could potentially be harmful for those who are already on the low end, though I'm not sure that's the only reason to be worried about K2. I would guess that the proper ratio would depend on how high your D levels are in the first place.

    Personally, I doubt I will ever take K2 again regardless, which is depressing since it seemed to have a lot of good effects. But the side effects are just too scary.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
    24FMK4 likes this.
  2. 24FMK4

    24FMK4

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    Yeah, I agree with you. I probably should be avoiding K2 still, but I keep reading all these good things about it and wishing they would apply to me, but I seem to be screwed. Every time I eat significant amounts of calcium I get itchy. And I start to have slight vision problems, like you. The Vitamin D just makes it worse. Yet, not eating calcium is not a viable thing. Tonight I noticed a lot of negative symptoms just from that one 100mcg pill I took. And my osteomalacia coming back, on top of it. So I think I cannot take K2 until my Vitamin D level is higher. Which might be never, at this rate. Sigh.

    I think K2 is no more of a "miracle vitamin" than any other vitamin. It is no more significant to the body than Vitamin D, C, E, B, iron, zinc, magnesium, calcium, etc. It is marketed as a miracle vitamin because so few people know about it, which makes that a good marketing tactic. So when people read about it, they never heard of it before, their doctors don't even know what it is... so the pharmaceutical companies can say whatever they want and everyone not only believes them but they feel like they're a lucky insider on a great secret. Actually, the truth is that all these supplements get marketed similarly. pretty much every nutrient, someone is claiming it's "the missing link!!!" in the modern diet. I think K2 just gets that even more due to the fact that it's not well-known... and those who ARE deficient in it are eager to be like "look! I found it! the missing link!!!" But actually, all these things are dependent on each other to an equal extent. My problems could be from Vitamin D deficiency just as much as K2 deficiency. Most of the reviews on Amazon are fake or people saying they just started taking it a month ago and haven't seen any difference, but are going to keep taking it because they read that it's good.

    I never really had any bone problems or anything until now, and I'm afraid trying to get K2 has ruined my health. Oh, the irony. And then there is a never-ending line of people online who want to tell me "oh, well, if K2 didn't work, you should ask your doctor if you have fibromyalgia." "you must be magnesium deficient. here's my website, you can buy some magnesium from me!!" Hello! Stop telling me what to do, random person on the internet who doesn't know me! My boyfriend is probably right telling me that I need to just avoid supplements like the plague. Because I really feel like this supplement junk brought the plague on me.

    By the way, if anyone else has found out about K2 through Dr. Mercola, I would avoid his articles like the plague. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola#FDA_Warning_Letters

    He is also against vaccinations.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  3. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    The supplement that my doctor recommended for osteoporosis contains, among other things, 1000 IU vitamin D3 (as cholecalciferol), 500 mcg vitamin K1, 25 mcg vitamin K2 (as MK7), and 250 mg calcium.
    24FMK4 likes this.
  4. 24FMK4

    24FMK4

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    Cool, thanks for the info. Did you try this one and how did it work for you? Thanks. My mom was taking 45mcg MK-7 + 2000-4000IU D. It sounds like the MK-7 built up in her body over time. At first this ratio worked for her, but then it leveled out. She found that increasing her Vitamin D but not K2 led to increased improvement - namely, her feet were decreasing in numbness.
  5. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I was only recently diagnosed with osteoporosis. Unfortunately the supplement she recommended contains folic acid, which I do not assimilate. I am in the process of procuring the components individually, with methylfolate instead of folic acid.
  6. yukito

    yukito

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    I had some problems taking little doses of mk-4 (100µg/day).Eyes problems,heart problems,bone and joint pains.
    I could improve these taking mainly calcium and methylfolate sometimes retinol.That makes me think it is a problem of taking mk-4 without cofactors. If you eat eggs you will have mk-4 with all the cofactors and so you won't experience side effects.
    Nowadays I obtain my mk-4 from meat,grass-fed butter and eggs.
    It seems that mk-4 is essential for me but very little doses can do the job.
    Hope it helps,good luck.
  7. vortex

    vortex

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    If you are supposed to take k2 mk4 3 times a day and you aren't supposed to take it with vitamin c, then when are you supposed to take vitamin c ??
  8. tamasaburo

    tamasaburo

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    Hi, thanks for the message. What kind of eye problems did you have? Did they get better with time?
  9. yukito

    yukito

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    Since longtime,my right eye is astigmatic and nearsighted.My left eye is just nearsighted. After two months of mk-4 I got a blurred vision,like a astigmatism on the left eye,also both eyes muscles worked and accomodated less efficiently.It got better and now it's normal,just nearsighted and astigmatic on the right eye, and nearsighted on the left eye,as always.
    It didn't get better thanks to time but because I found some of the things that had been depleted because of mk-4 and repleted it.I used methylfolate methylcobalamin adenosylcobalamin carnitine calcium magnesium manganese,vitamin a and d.and it got better in a few minutes.
    The next days, I tried vitamin b5 and B6 and it improved a little bit more,and then time and sleep finished to repair things.
    Two weeks ago I tried to take some mk-4 like 100 µg, it made me feel weird,I took some methylfolate and it got better in a few minutes.
    24FMK4 likes this.
  10. 24FMK4

    24FMK4

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    Hey everyone. I've been actively updating about my health issues related to K2, Vitamin D, and bone health on the previously linked blog. I also posted there some videos that I am now recording to visually and verbally document my bone size and health. Doing this partly so my docs will stop telling me it's all in my head and partly so I know it's not all in my head and partly for general knowledge. I encourage others to do the same - so no one can say that you made it up, and to contribute to knowledge about these nutrients.

    After all this time, I have figured more things out about my body. Definitely - regardless of what doctors say - have been Vitamin D deficient at roughly 30ng/ml. That was the level on two tests, but that doesn't mean my level has been constant. Furthermore, I don't think from experience that the severity of Vitamin D deficiency is based on D levels alone - it also depends on how long you've been deficient and how much calcium you've been getting, and if you've been taking K2 supplements (bad).

    I've lost a bit of weight (10-14lbs), and I first thought it was due to fat loss. I now think it was a combo of fat loss and bone loss because I didn't gain weight when I put some fat back on. I was getting increasing bone pain and even starting to get a lot of bone chills. !!! I haven't heard others report bone chills, but it's like bone pain.... just a spontaneous chill that lasts a few seconds and then goes away, through my skeletal system. I was also getting depressed if I stopped taking Vitamin D. I haven't been taking Vitamin K2 at all in a while because every time I tried it again, I felt horrible. I think the MK-7 makes me feel worse than MK-4 because it lasts longer. MK-7 45mcg, just one pill, made me feel horrible all week. Next time I experiment with K2 will be after raising my Vitamin D level and with MK-4 only and I will cut the pill up because they are too much.

    I am now convinced of what someone suggested here before. I cannot say I am absolutely positive, but time will tell. I believe that you cannot take K2 supplements if you are Vitamin D deficient or even nearly deficient - it is very dangerous to the body. You DEFINITELY cannot take either of these without 100% DV of calcium, or else it will destroy your bone. This is my experience. No matter how much I took these supplements, it was a problem. I found that for me personally, calcium supplements became a problem as well. I suspect that the magnesium counteracts the effects of Vitamin D. One lowers calcium levels and the other raises them, in the blood. It seemed like if I took calcium supplements (with magnesium) or ate slices of gourmet cheese, I started to be immediately very thirsty and urinate a lot. That's a sign of hypercalcemia. I take this to mean that the magnesium was causing me to urinate out all the calcium I was eating. I got kidney pains, too, from just small fragments of calcium tablets. I think this is due to Vitamin D deficiency - because if you are deficient, then the body takes a lot of calcium from the bones, and/or the body cannot maintain that level of calcium in the blood because it needs D to do that. Because of this deficiency, then the appropriate magnesium to calcium level changed. So now I'm avoiding magnesium and seem to not get this problem. I have been getting lots of calcium through pizza (processed cheese that I think has less magnesium), soy, and fortified orange juice. I've been taking lots of Vitamin D supplements and gradually feeling less bone pain and chills, less bone sensitivity, smoother teeth. Strangely, though, my mouth feels constantly filled with bacteria despite brushing a lot and using medicated mouthwash. Strange that my teeth are nice and white and smooth, yet coworkers complain about my bad breath daily now. Based on my experiences, I think that when I start taking MK-4 supplements again, this problem will correct itself. However, I'll endure the bad breath for now. Am I the only one having this experience or are people afraid of TMI? Anyway, Vitamin D has antimicrobial properties, so the smooth teeth I'm assuming comes from the calcium. I guess I need the MK-4 to activate the anti-microbial properties.

    My vitamin D intake for the past week has been 2500IU to 6500+IU per day. I notice that 5-12 hours after eating a big calcium-rich and Vitamin D breakfast, the bone problems will start coming back. So then I go and eat some more with Vitamin D and they go away again. And none of this apparently requires K2 intake! The only reason I'm tempted to go back on K2 right now is to clean out my mouth. Also I've been eating a small amount of non-organic eggs here and there. That is about the only K2 I'm getting directly. Doesn't do much if anything for my oral health. The thing with MK-4 is that my oral health got really bad when I took it, but if I took it with a lot of Vitamin D, then stopped taking MK-4, suddenly THEN my oral hygiene would get better. My teeth got extremely grainy on MK-4 one time - I assume due to depleting my body of Vitamin D. I guess the Vitamin D was going to kill bacteria, but stopped working on other things. Strange, but I couldn't make this stuff up!

    All this has been very complicated and confusing, but I think I'm slowly figuring out how my body functions on these things. There seriously need to be more studies done on K2, and even on the other nutrients. There's debate about the optimal amount of Vitamin D, and think that is because everyone is different, and because it's really dependent on cofactors. That's the problem of modern medicine. We discreetly divide up parts of the body that don't divide up like that in reality. K2 is no more special than Vitamin D or calcium. It's useless without them. It is able to be marketed as a miracle vitamin more so than the others because it's more obscure. I also think that different ethnic groups vary in their required amounts of these nutrients. For example, black people may have less vitamin D but still have lower risk for osteoporosis than other groups. Vitamin D supplements could be more dangerous for groups who traditionally do not eat a lot of calcium. Example, I work in an Asian restaurant and get lots of free food there, but none of it is calcium-rich except for the tofu.

    It took me so long just to figure out something as simple as the fact that I need to combine Vitamin D with pizza and/or soy and/or fortified orange juice. And without K2, for now. Rheumatology appointment is in almost two months. Hope they'll test my bone mass because I'm certain that I've lost some. That was freaky. Now I can finally relax and go back to my normal life because I figured out how to at least stave off the bone loss until the UV rays come back. Sucks I got the exact opposite of intention with K2 - to the extreme! Now I hope, perhaps naively, that with diligence I can get my bone mass back up and even higher than it was. I am also planning to start a lot more weight bearing exercises once the weather gets warmer because that's important for bones. Atm, I am just trying to get my body back in a normal range before trying to build extra bone.
  11. 24FMK4

    24FMK4

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    methylfolate? never heard of it... interesting. did the methylfolate come with anything?
  12. yukito

    yukito

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  13. tamasaburo

    tamasaburo

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    Hi 24MK4,

    Two questions for you:

    Have you ever taken the acne medication Accutane?

    Did you ever try eating natto, and if so, did it have the same effect as taking MK7, or was eating the whole food different?

    Thanks!
  14. BrushedBrass

    BrushedBrass

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    I've been taking 15mg of mk4 daily, without any Vitamin D supplementation. Does anyone know if this would have a negative effect?
  15. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @24FMK4,
    I don't know but that Vitamin A might be what is missing in your Vitamin D + calcium mix. Vitamin A is a potent immune activator, it helps with pathogens, and helps the health of the skin and mucous membranes.

    I met a person who said that K2 caused her vitamin A deficiency symptoms. After she told me, I realized that was happening to me, too. I don't know why, and I contacted Chris Masterjohn, who studies and write about the fat soluble vitamins, and he didn't know why, either.

    Actually, that might explain the issues you had with your eyes, Vitamin A being very important in eye health.

    In this article about the immune system, http://digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C104673.html
    see how Rheumatoid arthritis is one of the diseases of an imbalanced immune system with the shift towards the Th2 branch. And then see the things that are good for this situation, Vitamin A being one of them.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  16. BrushedBrass

    BrushedBrass

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    I read this post from another forum which scared me...

    " believe MK-7 caused my bones to shrink dramatically because I was low in Vitamin D and not supplementing. So the notion that it would cause them to fill out when taken in balance makes sense. It’s crazy scary to me to see my bones shrink so rapidly. It was very rapid. All my bones got sharper. I lost weight. I had osteomalacia. Joint pain. Pain in the top of my skull. The skull near my ear. Inside my ears. Toes, hands, elbows, sternum, rib cage. I’m even afraid I have a lump in my breast, but I think it’s just bone that became more noticeable."

    http://www.naturalheightgrowth.com/2013/07/13/increase-height-and-grow-tall er-using-vitamin-k2-aka-menaquinone/
  17. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Have you had you vitamin D level tested? Is there any reason not to take a modest amount of vitamin D just to be on the safe side?
  18. BrushedBrass

    BrushedBrass

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    I've not had my D level checked and didn't think to supplement with it whilst taking the mk4.
    I was taking mk4 to see if it would raise my testosterone as a study conducted on rats suggested, but after reading that woman's comment I'm scared that I could have made my facial bones thinner.
  19. ariel

    ariel

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    Hello :)

    Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread.
    I too am thinking of supplementing K2 (MK4), mostly because I've been interested in Weston Price's work for a while now and though I've tried following the WP Foundation's protocols re diet I don't know how successful I am.
    And also I just can't seem to shake off my CFS and my teeth have always been terrible. So perhaps this is one of the things that my body really needs...?
    Asklipia's experiences with MK4 seem very promising, especially as she seems to believe that it was one of the main causes of her recovery. -- Though it seems that a couple of people here have had very negative, and seemingly quite scary experiences from it.

    I am wondering if it would be wise to take fish oil (or cod liver oil) at the same time as these are the natural forms of Vit A and D.
    To those who did supplement with D3, what form that was it?
    Sunlight isn't so much of an option for me right now, as here in Australia we are going into winter. And also I've always avoided the sun here, as it is so incredibly intense - quite different to the sun in other parts of the world.

    Thanks again
  20. BrushedBrass

    BrushedBrass

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    Actually took it whilst supplementing with the fat soluble vitamins and minerals, now think cheekbones are thicker and wider, which my face can't take. Hoping it will be reversed if I stop.

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