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Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hanna, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Thanks you for the source!
  2. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Effect on teeth yes.
    They get very "clean", no more plaque. This is how I notice that I take enough MK-4, because all my MK-4 gets used up if I catch a bug from other people's children, of if I suffer too much stress etc. All these stressful events must release a lot of calcium in places where it should not go (over teeth and in gums), most probably taking it from places where it should stay. MK-4 is supposed to bring the calcium where it should be, even taking it away from the wrong places.
    The "silky teeth" feeling when it is missing is for me the signal I should take an extra MK-4 for a few days.

    I noticed that mB12 increases my need for MK-4, after a week I started to feel this rough feeling on the enamel.

    I used to have osteoporosis of the mandibular joint with my jaw coming unhinged if I yawned too hard. At the same time plaque problems and bad gum inflammation. My jaw was so thin I couldn't get an implant. MK-4 took care of all that. One of my friends had stones in the salivary glands, recurrent even after a painful operation. This seems to be more of the same problem. Eventually she tried MK-4 and for now it is OK.

    I noticed MK-4 has its own emergency list, it does not fix first what you find most urgent! It kind of goes around, and back to the same places but every time more in depth.
    At least now my teeth seem to be less shaky in my gums, and I have had no problems with them since more than 18 months ago.
    I have a kind of feeling that my jaw is stronger. Also this happened in the upper part (over the upper teeth). My cheekbones seem to have filled up too (not the muscle but the bone underneath).
  3. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    Hi Asklipia,
    That's interesting about your teeth.
    I have awful problems with deposits on my teeth, I have to get them cleaned by the dentist every 3 months.

    Do you think maybe there is some reason I don't absorb the K properly, that might explain why I don't get all these benefits that you get?
    Or perhaps some other nutrient it needs to work with, that I am lacking?

    When I read about the symptoms of vitamin k deficiency, I seem to have all of them... yet most of them don't go away when I take it.
  4. garcia

    garcia Aristocrat Extraordinaire

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    @Athene: were you taking the Thorne "Ultra K2" (which is 15mg mk4)?

    @Asklipia; I wonder if there are other nutrients which act as cofactors to vitamin K and which you have to be replete in to get full benefit??
  5. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Athene,
    I don't know about the other brands, but I think the VRP works if you don't take the capsule, which might be part of the problem.
    I noticed from my friends whom I encouraged to take K2 that the people who stop taking it do so not because it does not show results. They never wait long enough to give it a fair try. They stop because they are hooked on MSG and they need the MSG effect. When you take K2 AND MSG at the same time you don't get the MSG highs anymore!!!!! And you don't get the K2 benefits either. For them it is a loose-loose situation.

    1- You could have had reduced benefits because the VRP capsule either contains MSG or has an MSG like effect. This I know for sure because I tried it.
    2- You could have had the same problem because there is MSG/hydrogenated oils/artificial sweeteners in your food/drinks.
    Unless you address #2, you cannot fully enjoy the benefits.
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Garcia,
    As I said before
    I would like to add that the more vit D you take, the more you seem to need menatetrenone.
    I have also noticed that taking mB12 seems to incease my need for menatetrenone.


    Best,
    Asklipia
  7. iacyi

    iacyi

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    I started taking 5mg MK4 after I demineralised my front teeth experimenting with oral hygiene... The only noticeable thing for me was the skin on my face seemed to shed really fast for a couple of days after I started. I had sometimes taken it alongside vitamin E, so I will definitely stop that.

    Have you heard of Catherine Tomaro's Vitamin K Protocol? Seems like some people in the autistic community tried it. I can't find much discussion about it, though there is a Yahoo group for it which seems to have gone quiet recently.

    They recommend up to 15mg K2 three times a day, along with a raft of other supps.

    I have too much on my plate right now, but I will definitely keep all this in mind. Thanks.
  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Yes I have heard of Catherine Tomaro's Protocol and the Yahoo group. I agree with many of what she has found. The reading of the posts on her group are very helpful. I don't know why it has gone quiet. Maybe the protocol is working too well!

    As to the skin of your face, menatetrenone seems to give extra soft skin, too soft at first, maybe calcium related? I used to cut my hands on book pages for a couple of days. This goes away very fast and you end up with soft and supple skin all over. A kind of reverse of what you get when your thyroid is not working fine.
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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  10. CJB

    CJB Senior Member

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    Has anyone tried dietary sources such as grass-fed meat, butter, eggs? I'm listening to this audio right now. Just recently switched to grass-fed butter (ouch - it's expensive, but I don't use a lot and I figure it's cheaper than buying vitamin tablets) and we've gotten some laying hens and are eating fresh, organic eggs from happy, spoiled chickens.

    http://foodfreedomrevolution.blogspot.com/2012/01/vitamin-k2-for-heart-bone-and-skin.html

    ETA: She just said that the difference between MK-4 and 7 is that the 7 is a natural product - dried natto - and the MK-4 is synthetic. If you take MK-7, the recommended doseage is 120 mcg 1x/day and if you take MK-4, the recommended doseage is 4500 mcg 3x/day.

    I'm brain dead - I may have some of this wrong.....
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Yes!! for the eggs! I eat every day one of two fresh eggs fried in grass-fed butter. Be careful to keep the temperature of the butter low when you cook the eggs. I noticed that for some reason I get better results that way. Vitamin K2 is not affected by heat though, at least that is what I found out. Maybe not entirely true. Maybe it is something else which is lost at high temperatures.
    If you want MK-4 the natural way, it is found in brains, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, tongue, tripe. Not so much in liver. And more so in birds. And birds fat. Of course well-raised birds. I found that ducks are fantastic in that respect. If you have room, you could have a few ducks as well. Their eggs are a little bigger than hens eggs and they are delicious. It seem there is way more K2 coming out of duck products. When you eventually cook your duck, you can save a large amount of ducks fat, which keeps very well, chock-full of MK-4, and you can use it in your cooking. This gives a delicious taste to your veggies.
    Enjoy!
    merylg, Athene, Hanna and 1 other person like this.
  12. CJB

    CJB Senior Member

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    Thanks for answering a question I forgot to ask about K2 being affected by heat.

    Also, thanks for reminding me about the bone marrow - I know there's a renewed interest in bone broths and it's something I started doing last year. Chicken carcass in the crockpot over night.

    I'll be checking our zoning regs to see if we can have ducks. And start to learn what they need!

    Duck liver pate'? I've always hated liver of all kinds, but I may have to revisit. They mentioned the French paradox in the audio link I posted and they eat lots of foods with K2.

    There was a segment on the news (I think - could've been a tv magazine) last night about taking calcium supplements and how they are implicated in a rise in heart disease. K2 is supposed to regulate where the calcium goes. Interesting.
    merylg likes this.
  13. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    CJB : Vitamin K2 is unaffected by heat but very light-sensitive. I make broths too, but all night in the crockpot will give you a lot of glutamate, not very good for us. I do two hours of normal boiling, taking care to include something acid (dash of lemon juice, of vinegar, or one tomato) to help extract minerals. Bon appetit!
    xks201, I wouldn't write anything like that. You could write "I took this and it helped me in such a way". A lighter touch maybe?
    As to the product you recommend, I notice that it contains K1, which is not necessary for anybody, unless you are a cosmonaut. Vitamin K1 is present everywhere in our food. It is also turned into anti-K when you are ingesting hydrogenated oils, which everyone does unawares. It does contains MK-4, but at a miserly half a mg dosage, when therapies are generally 45 mg per day for a 45 kg person.
    Thank you though for the opportunity to inform on the subject!
  15. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    5mg is the highest k-2 dose per pill I see on Amazon. 45mg a day would cost a fortune. Just saying. = Have you tried high dose k-2 or know anyone with CFS that has?
  16. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    You could try reading this thread from the beginning. Only 30 or so messages.
  17. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I'm using Carlson and it's cheap. I wonder if that means it's no good?
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    My two tests for MK-4 :
    - Is it excitotoxic? Because that defeats the purpose of taking it. If I feel that effect I look for the cause.
    This happens in the following situations :
    1- the capsule contains a glutamate, generally gelatin. To find out if the capsule is the culprit, I take the contents without the capsule and check if the excitotoxicity is still present.
    2- the product inside the capsule contains a glutamate or a hydrogenated oil. This is the case when I have done #1 and still notice excitotoxicity.
    - Is there enough good quality MK-4 in that product?
    If there is, you should feel an effect on teeth after a couple of days. Smoother enamel. If not, try upping the dose (you won't die from that!). If at taking 45 mg per day nothing happens on your teeth, I am afraid there is most probably just rice flower in your capsule! Or it has been left out in the sun or something else. No use taking it.

    The price I think does not matter so much. Cheap for some is expensive for others! I suspect we are made to pay for things the price we can afford.
    For example : Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin). When bought in Bangkok (posh area mind you) = 1 pill with a ridge in the middle (divisible) 25 mg = 1 baht (today 1 Thai baht = 0,03 USD).

    I have not tested Carlson. This does not mean it is not good! But it is in a gelatin capsule. I would not take the capsule. Even though you may not feel the excitotoxicity from it, the gelatin effect would swallow part of the MK-4 effect. Counterproductive. You will get more value from your Carlson product by discarding the capsule at the moment you take it. MK-4 has no taste.
    I notice that Carlson also sells Vitamin K2 as MK-7. Not the same product. What I am taking is Menatetrenone (MK-4)
    Best wishes,
    Asklipia
    merylg and Hanna like this.
  19. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    I think that sounds like good advice from Asklipia.
    I found that when vit K works, you feel the effects in just a matter of days, and Asklipia has also suggested the same. So if you have been taking it for a few weeks and don't feel it doing anything, I would suspect maybe it really isn't doing anything.
    My own experience with supplements has been that the difference between expensive adn cheap depends which vitamin. If they are easy to synthesise and relatively resilient, like Vitamin C, then it's possible to find good cheap ones. If they are prone to being poorly absorbed, easily degrade when exposed to temperature variations etc, or are simply unusual supplements that few people take, then you generally have to pay more to get something that works.
    So I would try following Asklepia's suggestions and just give up on that brand if you don't feel anything soon.
  20. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Athene I find the sublingual product I mentioned works quite well. Sure the dose is not superphysiological but it is physiological.

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