Acetyl-Choline Overload

[Learner1]

Does anyone else who has posted in here get out of breath at weird times? I can exercise just fine most of the time but then occasionally (usually after breakfast or lunch) I get super winded going up the stairs. Or sometimes when I lay down in the middle of the night after using the restroom (but fine going to the restroom)...? This out-of-place shortness of breath always comes when I'm also dealing with insomnia, oddly enough.

No, I'm never out of breath. I run out of energy first.

 

[Mary]

No, I'm never out of breath. I run out of energy first.

Ditto!

 

[Mary]

@Mary
There you are !!!

I've been missing you, but reluctant to post the dread R U OK til yesterday, when I finally gave in .... really glad to see you here. Or anywhere in these threads !!!

Hi @YippeeKi YOW !! - thanks for your concern! I'm okay, I've had a LOT going on, so not much energy for the board - I'll send you a PM so as not to derail this thread

 

[GreenMachineX]

No, I'm never out of breath. I run out of energy first.

Wish I could figure that one out...

 

[Mary]

Wish I could figure that one out...

This happens to other members here. Maybe you should do another thread or do a search for this specific issue. And I've come across this issue in reading about various things, and if I can recall what I read or come across it again, I'll let you know

 

[GreenMachineX]

This happens to other members here. Maybe you should do another thread or do a search for this specific issue. And I've come across this issue in reading about various things, and if I can recall what I read or come across it again, I'll let you know

Thanks Mary.

I've been looking for that Seriphos product and you're right, everyone is out of stock! I'm wondering if Relora may be a decent substitute until I can find Seriphos...? Headed to vitamin shoppe today to find it a shot!

Does anyone have a bottle of Seriphos they want to sell me?

 

[WinterWren]

Our situations do sound similar.

Aren't choline and acetylcholine basically the same thing though?

In another day or 2 I'll try the hydroxyzine if this doesn't resolve by then.

Hopefully something helps you, I’d be interested to hear how hydroxyzine works if you try it.

It’s a precursor but there’s also free choline in the brain (and other choline containing compounds). I don’t know anything about it really, but I remember a researcher (Jarred Younger I think) talking about pwME having more choline in their brains and that it’s a sign of neuroinflammation (maybe he was referring to acetylcholine but I don’t think so?).

 

[GreenMachineX]

Hopefully something helps you, I’d be interested to hear how hydroxyzine works if you try it.

It’s a precursor but there’s also free choline in the brain (and other choline containing compounds). I don’t know anything about it really, but I remember a researcher (Jarred Younger I think) talking about pwME having more choline in their brains and that it’s a sign of neuroinflammation (maybe he was referring to acetylcholine but I don’t think so?).

I just remembered... years ago I tried all kinds of different cholinergic substances like choline bitartrate, alpha-gpc, etc and I don't think any of them gave me insomnia, but definitely headache and brain fog. Guessing my current condition isn't from acetyl choline buildup then.

Either way, I'll be using the lipoic acid I bought. I'm also starting to suspect a hormone issue (estrogen or cortisol).

 

[Mary]

@GreenMachineX - you may know this, but Relora has magnolia bark in it. You said earlier you didn't want to take magnolia bark because of the telmisartan. What sort of interaction were you concerned about between these two things?

fwiw, I've tried Relora before with no apparent benefit, but it's been several years, I could have had a lot of other things going on, so I may give it a try again. Several years ago Bulk Supplements magnolia bark was very potent and very effective for sleep - I think it did lower cortisol. 1/8 of a teaspoon would let me sleep for the night. Unfortunately, their current product is pretty much useless. I could take a teaspoon of the stuff and not know I'd taken anything.

Do you have magnolia bark on hand? If so, what brand is it or where do you get it?

ETA: Yesterday I called Interplexus, the company which makes Seriphos, and asked when/if they hoped to have more in stock. She said they hope to have more in February, but no guarantees!

 

[GreenMachineX]

@GreenMachineX - you may know this, but Relora has magnolia bark in it. You said earlier you didn't want to take magnolia bark because of the telmisartan. What sort of interaction were you concerned about between these two things?

fwiw, I've tried Relora before with no apparent benefit, but it's been several years, I could have had a lot of other things going on, so I may give it a try again. Several years ago Bulk Supplements magnolia bark was very potent and very effective for sleep - I think it did lower cortisol. 1/8 of a teaspoon would let me sleep for the night. Unfortunately, their current product is pretty much useless. I could take a teaspoon of the stuff and not know I'd taken anything.

Do you have magnolia bark on hand? If so, what brand is it or where do you get it?

ETA: Yesterday I called Interplexus, the company which makes Seriphos, and asked when/if they hoped to have more in stock. She said they hope to have more in February, but no guarantees!

First I'll say I've developed pretty severe hypochondria over the past few years. It borders on ridiculous at times. Nevertheless, I'm just concerned that something I take interacts with the telmisartan causing my blood pressure to go too low. This is a new concern for me because it wasn't long ago that my blood pressure was the lowest it's ever been, 106/60 when for years it never went lower than 125/75, and usually was 140/75. I still don't know why it was that low. The past couple times I've taken it over the past couple weeks, it was 115/75 at its lowest. Not knowing what caused any of it concerns me.

Regarding the Relora, yeah, I bought it on purpose because I did use it years ago the last time I dealt with insomnia. I have Nootropics Depot Magnolia also on hand, but their stuff is always super strong and I know Relora is mild. That was my rationale at least.

Glad to hear that about Seriphos!!! I'll be continuously checking their site!

 

[GreenMachineX]

Slept a total of 7 or 8 hours last night! Woke up literally every hour but it's still an improvement!

Might try time release melatonin tonight...

 

[Judee]

In my own personal case:
Over a few weeks, these start-up effects faded and I was able to tolerate two daily doses of 300mg GPC without any problems.

But can I ask what type of symptom or benefit you are taking it for...like brain fog or ??? And did you notice it helping that.

Does anyone else who has posted in here get out of breath at weird times?

I do but I think mine has more to do with my cheating on my diet as I re-test things. Using antibiotics for possible Lyme co-infections over the last year or so has seemed to improve some of my food sensitivities so I've been adding some foods back in here and there...maybe even some that shouldn't be.

Maybe Mary is right and we should start a new thread however, I do think I've seen this topic before under things like "air hunger" so maybe do a search first.

 

[hapl808]

So what might actually be happening is you are tanking on neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine. This is just a possibility to think about while everyone is brainstorming. This is what was happening with me. So now when I can't sleep things like tyrosine or Butcher's Broom can help.

What would potentially be the answer if you have constant tachycardia? I'm sitting in bed now in a mild PEM crash working on my laptop and drinking chamomile tea and my HR is around 95-100. This is normal for me.

 

[GreenMachineX]

But can I ask what type of symptom or benefit you are taking it for...like brain fog or ??? And did you notice it helping that.



I do but I think mine has more to do with my cheating on my diet as I re-test things. Using antibiotics for possible Lyme co-infections over the last year or so has seemed to improve some of my food sensitivities so I've been adding some foods back in here and there...maybe even some that shouldn't be.

Maybe Mary is right and we should start a new thread however, I do think I've seen this topic before under things like "air hunger" so maybe do a search first.

Air hunger is the perfect description, and its interesting that it mostly happens with me shortly after meals as well. I'll search it. Thanks!

 

[GreenMachineX]

Finally getting some sleep! Basically altering the amount of methylfolate and methyl b12 through the multi (Thorne 2 Per Day, just taking one) and adding extra methylfolate is working. There's a strange balance though...I get histamine issues (feel hot and sweaty, lazy, severe total body itching in afternoon, brain fog about 5pm for a couple hours) with a total of 300-400mcg methylfolate and 300mcg methylcobalamin, but at 500mcg methylfolate and 300mcg methylcobalamin I don't sleep nearly as well, but better mood, motivated, and the histamine symptoms are drastically reduced. I also have some deficiency symptoms going on of one or the other, like sores in mouth, but unsure which that applies to. Air hunger so happening in the first few hours after breakfast also.

 

[Violeta]

What would potentially be the answer if you have constant tachycardia? I'm sitting in bed now in a mild PEM crash working on my laptop and drinking chamomile tea and my HR is around 95-100. This is normal for me.

I don't know, that's a strange one. I have a friend with the same thing. She even used a 24 hour heart monitor to see if it varied or was affected by anything at all, and it just stayed the same the whole time.

 

[GreenMachineX]

For anyone still following along here...

Finally sleeping 8 hours per night, and only woke up 3 times last night. I attribute this to most likely increasing b12 dose (not by much though) and eating 4 whole eggs per day due to low-ish numbers on blood test (369, range 250-900). Or, it's from reducing my testosterone dose significantly. I wasn't on much to begin with (70mg total per week), but my free testosterone was top of range in trough which might just be too much for me personally. Either way, sleeping better.

Anxiety is still right at the door ready to bust through. Niacin, theanine and lemon balm work temporarily, but something is obviously still not right.

23andme showed negative for mthfr mutations so I don't need special types of folate or methylcobalamin, but homozygous for COMT mutations which may explain the chronic anxiety...dopamine and norepinephrine lasting too long in my brain. I also can't find the right balance of theanine and niacin to when I'm overstimulated. Just 25mg niacin and 100mg theanine shuts it down hard to where I'm overly relaxed (I still have to actively control the silly health anxiety thoughts though).

Otherwise, bizarre muscle/tendon cramps still a problem. Air hunger is gone for the most part. Histamine issues like severe itching seem to be gone. And the nightly brain fog is gone. The muscle cramps prevent me from doing any exercise other than walking right now. At least I'm improving though. There's still other things going on, but these are the most debilitating in my life.

 

[hapl808]

I don't know, that's a strange one. I have a friend with the same thing. She even used a 24 hour heart monitor to see if it varied or was affected by anything at all, and it just stayed the same the whole time.

Yeah, I got a smart watch and found pretty much the same. Very hard to find anything that affects heart rate or HRV naturally and consistently, but might try beta blockers at some point.

 

[Tannukchhina]

For anyone still following along here...

Finally sleeping 8 hours per night, and only woke up 3 times last night. I attribute this to most likely increasing b12 dose (not by much though) and eating 4 whole eggs per day due to low-ish numbers on blood test (369, range 250-900). Or, it's from reducing my testosterone dose significantly. I wasn't on much to begin with (70mg total per week), but my free testosterone was top of range in trough which might just be too much for me personally. Either way, sleeping better.

Anxiety is still right at the door ready to bust through. Niacin, theanine and lemon balm work temporarily, but something is obviously still not right.

23andme showed negative for mthfr mutations so I don't need special types of folate or methylcobalamin, but homozygous for COMT mutations which may explain the chronic anxiety...dopamine and norepinephrine lasting too long in my brain. I also can't find the right balance of theanine and niacin to when I'm overstimulated. Just 25mg niacin and 100mg theanine shuts it down hard to where I'm overly relaxed (I still have to actively control the silly health anxiety thoughts though).

Otherwise, bizarre muscle/tendon cramps still a problem. Air hunger is gone for the most part. Histamine issues like severe itching seem to be gone. And the nightly brain fog is gone. The muscle cramps prevent me from doing any exercise other than walking right now. At least I'm improving though. There's still other things going on, but these are the most debilitating in my life.

Have you got feeling naturally sleepy????? When you were overmethylated, did you feel sleepy at all????

 

[GreenMachineX]

Have you got feeling naturally sleepy????? When you were overmethylated, did you feel sleepy at all????

I never felt tired when I was overmethylated. I have figured out the source of the overstimulation of methylfolate and folinic acid, but the amount i need for healing and not being depressed also overstimulates me. Every day I have to decide if I want to feel relaxed and sleep well yet mildly depressed, or have bad sleep but great mood.