Abilify tolerance

[Push Fwd]

Hi, it's me again, asking something for Martin
Martin read a report in which someone took Abilify for his depression but also developed tolerance. He then found out that 50mg amisulpride removed this tolerance. Is this possible from your point of view? @Hip @leokitten

Or has someone experience with taking both drugs at the same time?

 

[leokitten]

I don't have experience or opinion on that and generally would avoid trying things from only a single ancecdotal report, especially neurotropic medications as they work somewhat differently in each individual.

On a separate note, I heard that Ron Davis is working on possibly using levodopa as a workaround to Abilify? To me none of it makes objective sense.

Levodopa doesn't have similar mechanisms of action as Abilify, causes significant dopamine receptor downregulation and stops working well over time (ask PD people), has toxicities and isn't anti-inflammatory like Abilify, gives people withdrawal effects when they have to come off of it, etc.

This to me isn't a solution. Maybe he's trying to work around Abilify's metabolic side effects, which honestly are minor in most of us if anything at all. What's 100x more important is figuring out Abilify tolerance and why it stops working in many after a few months. I would hazard a hypothesis that it doesn't have much to do with the metabolic side effects but has more to do with dopamine and/or serotonin receptor density changes in the brain.

I also proposed to Janet and Ron on PR to investigate brilaroxzaine, which is in early phase III trials for schizophrenia and does not seem to have any of the metabolic side effects of Abilify while having all of it's positive effects. It's being developed by a pharma company close to them in the Bay area. Maybe it could get approved by the FDA more quickly under compassionate use grounds if we do some small trials on it. If you are going after that workaround then this is a better path forward than levodopa!

 

[jaybee00]

@leokitten

I was just guessing it might be L-dopa. Nobody knows but Ron. But there was a person on the FB group who responded to L-dopa, but she also had some other co-morbidities.

 

[leokitten]

@leokitten

I was just guessing it might be L-dopa. Nobody knows but Ron. But there was a person on the FB group who responded to L-dopa, but she also had some other co-morbidities.

Ok sorry thought there were more hints as to what it was . One anecdotal report is nothing though.

 

[leokitten]

@leokitten

I was just guessing it might be L-dopa. Nobody knows but Ron. But there was a person on the FB group who responded to L-dopa, but she also had some other co-morbidities.

Was she taking Abilify with levodopa??

 

[jaybee00]

No, only levadopa—no Abilify.

 

[Push Fwd]

What's 100x more important is figuring out Abilify tolerance and why it stops working in many after a few months. I would hazard a hypothesis that it doesn't have much to do with the metabolic side effects but has more to do with dopamine and/or serotonin receptor density changes in the brain.

Thanks for your reply.

Some weeks ago, Martin has done some testing and the results show that his serotonin is very low (44,1 ng/ml- reference is 120-400 ng/ml).
Has someone else with Abilify tolerance done some testing and low serotonin, too? Or is about to test it?

 

[leokitten]

Thanks for your reply.

Some weeks ago, Martin has done some testing and the results show that his serotonin is very low (44,1 ng/ml- reference is 120-400 ng/ml).
Has someone else with Abilify tolerance done some testing and low serotonin, too? Or is about to test it?

There is no reliable standard or specialty clinical test that exists which tells you if your brain serotonin is low or not. Serotonin has a number of functions in the body outside the brain, so these extra-cerebral tests of metabolites or whatever tell you zero about what is happening in the brain.

In order to find out if brain serotonin is low you need a spinal tap and calibrated measurement of brain serotonin metabolites in spinal fluid, including comparing it to some standard of what is “normal”. All these other “specialty” tests are just using people as human ATM machines.

 

[cph13]

Quoting the article:


Certainly makes you wonder whether Abilify might be selectively altering methylation and thus gene expression in specific areas of the brain, leading to poop out.



Some years back, I experienced rapid poop out from

Quoting the article:


Certainly makes you wonder whether Abilify might be selectively altering methylation and thus gene expression in specific areas of the brain, leading to poop out.



Some years back, I experienced rapid poop out from the dopaminergic antidepressant bupropion (Wellbutrin), one of Dr Jay Goldstein's ME/CFS treatments. This drug instantly gave me two weeks of total remission from all my brain fog and cognitive symptoms, which was remarkable; but then exactly two weeks later, the drug just stopped working, and even a long break from it did not help. I never figured out why.

At the time, this Wellbutrin poop out reminded me of the historical story of giving L-dopa to encephalitis lethargica patients (the disease which turns people into living statues, caused by the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic). These living statue patients rapidly recovered movement once given L-dopa, but some time later, it stopped working, and sadly the patients slipped back into the disease.

You seem to have the best handle on how things work. You are lucky Wellbutrin pooped out on you. Between max dose of Wellbutrin and .05-1mg of clonazapin I blew out my gaba receptors. I've not touched anything since. Insomniac, i need your knowledge as i am at a loss Hip.

I've been on LDN for autoimmine and pain (broken humerus' n bone on bone knee w oa) 2.5-3yrs. Its been a bear to regulate.as.my receptors.(I'm MTHFR ++1298C) don't clear it. DARK MOOD. 13 days off to see the light 1.5 years ago!
Recently, it took 3 weeks off to clear receptors.

During that time i decided.to.go on abilify as its a dopamine/ serotonin regulator. All these years im trying to up my Da/... maybe regulations the thing. The improved sleep wore off after i added back in the LDN due to pain..
AMAZINGLY only .05mg.

I upped it to 1mg..darn dark mood is back. (Niacin helped 100mg.)
My question is how do I...what do I take...now to tweak both these meds. I need to sleep and I'd really like to function. I go for sunrise walk for 3 hrs maybe 6000 sreps and I'm done for the day. (AS OPPOSED TO 13000 STEPS )
I get 2-3hrs sleep im on l-theanine, 5htp, gaba, baicilin, CORDECEPS niacin, pantatheine, jujubee, glycine, ornithine "And the kitchen sink"
I wake @2 or3am add some ltheanine or 5htp for another 2 hrs maybe. Im not sluggish in the morning just no desire. Everything's a push..many days I'm not successful.
Do i need dopamine i.e. tryosine phenylalanine or???
Can i add something natural to the abilify to enhance its affects. Im deathly afraid im going to make matters worse.

Ive resigned myself to ULDN .05mg abilify 2mg. I'm unaware of can get my get up n go back.

Untranasal GSH was miraculous 2 yrs ago. $$$is the issue.
With much respect for your journey n knowledge. I wish you and all Happy Healing, XOC
.........the vitamin junkie

 

[jaybee00]

You should seek medical advice from the physician who is prescribing you drugs.

 

[cph13]

You should seek medical advice from the physician who is prescribing you drugs.

MY COMMENTS WERE FOR @Hip. I am NOT seeking medical advise. Just brainstorming with someone ive been following for years.

Why are you being rude?

I suggest you keep your nose on your face.

But hey, thanks for bumping this.

To update @Hip, today i added modafinil .. the boost i needed, i guess 11,000 steps accomplished. No serious pain or fatigue. I just dont care to use "D r u g s" I'm looking for a natural remedy, @H I P.
LDN N ABILIFY is enuf pharma.

 

[Hip]

@cph13 , just saw your post now. I am bit brain fogged in recent days, so am not sure if I follow your question.

But if you asking about how to stop Abilify from pooping out after some months, I don't think anyone has the answer to that yet, unfortunately.

 

[cph13]

Sorry for the diabtribe. I know better but its complicated.

Since 2013/4 no pharma has touched my lips regularly. 2018 LDN walked into my painful life. I just restarted @.05mg. for pain/inflammation. I am @3 weeks on 2 mg of abilify. .

Yesterday, I added modofinal (i use this sporadically. Scared..Tolerance!). Those 3 things although helpful don't do it.

I cant figure out if i need MORE DA

This kinda sums me up :

Low norepinephrine may be associated with depression and mood changes as well as fatigue, difficulty concentrating, decreased ability to stay focused on tasks and diminished sense of personal/professional drive. Norepinephrine is converted from dopamine requiring vitamin C, copper and B3, and L-tyrosine is an amino acid precursor. (I know C is NOT getting into my cells. WHY? Dr. Has no clue)

I tried tyrosine pre abilify; saw no marked imp. @500mg.

I do not know much about overdoing/INTERFERENCE while on abilify.

Now i just read about bromantine.

Hip, You seem to have tried a lot. I thought maybe you might have thoughts.

We live in HOPE

XO C

 

[lenora]

Hello @Martin aka paused||M.E. I don't expect you to reply, but did want you to know that you're thought about and I certainly hope something other than abilify will come along soon.

I think it's worth nothing, for everyone, that Dr. Davis's son, Whitney, only takes very, very small amounts of abilify b/c it can stop working. How is your sleep pattern?

Two studies, one from Dr. Davis and the other from England seem to prove that trytophan and serotonin play a role in this illness. I wouldn't suggest that anyone take them independently b/c one seems to be too much and the other too little. I do believe the answer lies in research...and it's being done at this time. I hope you are at least getting some good rest. Yours, Lenora.

 

[pamojja]

(I know C is NOT getting into my cells. WHY? Dr. Has no clue)

Usually glucose is competing in uptake with ascorbic acid in the cell. Are you maybe on a high carb diet, or have high blood glucose levels already itself?

There might be many other reasons nobody knows. However, how did you find out that vitamin C doesn't reach intracellularly? - Usually its measured only in serum.

High dose vitamin C might overcome it. Though not many want to go this route. One way to trial if it would make a difference would be a vitamin C IV.

 

[Hip]

Low norepinephrine may be associated with depression and mood changes as well as fatigue, difficulty concentrating, decreased ability to stay focused on tasks and diminished sense of personal/professional drive.

For low mood and depression, I have found the following noticeably helpful, and take them regularly as a cocktail when depression hits me (though don't take all of them all the time):

Effects kick in within a couple of hours:
Amitriptyline 10 mg — reuptake inhibitor of serotonin and norepinephrine
Manganese 3 mg — needed for dopamine synthesis. I find this one increases enthusiasm for doing things
Spanish saffron 100 mg — increases dopamine
Moclobemide 75 mg — increases dopamine

Effects kick in within 12 hours:
High-dose inositol 12 to 18 grams day — increases serotonin

Effects kick in after a few days:
High-dose cod liver oil (at least 300 mg of EPA)
Folinic acid 200 mcg

 

[cph13]

Usually glucose is competing in uptake with ascorbic acid in the cell. Are you maybe on a high carb diet, or have high blood glucose levels already itself?

There might be many other reasons nobody knows. However, how did you find out that vitamin C doesn't reach intracellularly? - Usually, its measured only in serum.

High-dose vitamin C might overcome it. Though not many want to go this route. One way to trial if it would make a difference would be a vitamin C IV.

My dr. "WHO GIVES ME IV C" just test serum levels on an off IVC day. They were below range. She just commented and said, "the C is not getting into your cells". Esp. now I am an avid "c" injector. Doris Loh, the "C" guru just stated that IV C is not the right form of C to increase levels. I Had been Pre-diabetic but I HAD it under control with Bergamot and Berberine. Interesting...my blood glucose levels came back HIGH "this time" A1C- 6.1. I am NOT on high carbs very seldom pasta, sugar limited to fruits (in season careful). My D levels fell as well even though I was taking 10,000 iu a DAY! Thanks for your input Pamojja. Just noticed
you are from Austria....my grandfather's birthright. Happy Healing, XO C

Oh my...ILIGHTBULB!!!!! Pam....'ve been using D-ribose DAILY in my mushroom cacao coffee.

 

[pamojja]

Esp. now I am an avid "c" injector. Doris Loh, the "C" guru just stated that IV C is not the right form of C to increase levels.

Interresting. I actually took 24 g/d the last 12 years with many long-term benefits (Linus Pauling's therapy against CVD). Only this year I had the luck to get a first vitamin C IV, and felt an immetiate difference. Of course, IVs escalates serum levels a few hours only, and then its usually back to baseline.

If its an option for you, very high regular oral ascorbic acid intake could increase serum levels substancially:

Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 23-August-2002, Vol 115 No 1160

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

..We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

(emphasis by me)

 

[Dufresne]

For me it's always the 'holy shit!' treatments that stop working, and usually this happens within a month or so of starting. It's as if little bandaid treatments are allowed but chemical tweaks that go deep into the illness can't be permitted to continue working. The reason for this could be that our sickness is an intelligent process, one keeping us alive in the face of an ongoing threat.

 

[cph13]

"very high regular oral ascorbic acid intake could increase serum levels substantially "
thank you. I went that route years ago. I had a horrid time with C 4 years ago.

This is from my diary:
"stabbing shooting electrical pain right angle and left shin this is the second or third time it has happened on the right ankle first time on the left chin.
Maybe pseudogout from vit c./oxalates " I believe it was on 3g but I was taking niacin ATT.
I was thinking of doing another trial of 500mg AA every 2 hrs. This informatiion has convined me.

I'm also going to my IV Dr. next week for my C, mag, b12 etc. super IV. She does NOT believe in high dose though=FOR ME.

I read your 2020 post on this. Here a question I'd like you to answer. I'm going to need Oral surgery soon with 2 extractions and a apicoectomy. Some say to STOP "c" because it interfers with the sedative (unknown ATT but probably versed). In your experience do you find this to be true?

I am concerned having both low C & D blood level, especially In these times.

XO C
We Live in HOPE!