7 Day NAD+ Infusions (Severe ME/CFS Recovery, Neurological / Mitochondrial / Genetic Repair) + POLL

[Learner1]

I will after I do it and I'm sure they have a workable process, ok? I've had to be really persistent to get through to them and I want to be sure they deliver on what sounds very good. It should be 2-3 weeks until I get my results... I'm waiting on my test kit now.

 

[Jesse2233]

Mitochondria can be physically damaged, with deranged inner membranes, like in cancers, strand breaks in mtDNA, and damaged membranes due to peroxynitrite/free radical damage. They also can be filled with toxins as in the photos below, where the black stuff is arsenic sequestered in the mitochondria, and can clog up the mitochondrial membrane. There are also generic or acquired flaws in each of the complexes.

Excellent point. Mito dysfunction is not a monolithic issue even if it results in a systemic set of common issues.

The question would then be “what kind of mito issues is NAD+ best suited to and which are better served with PC, immunotherapy, carnitine, or CoQ10?”

I still have a hunch NAD+’s range is pretty big but there’s very likely types of dysfunction it’s better suited to. Of course it also functions as a neurotransmitter and an instrument of DNA repair so there are layers of complexity

 

[Jesse2233]

This is really a philosophical question but I often wonder what’s more likely to be primary...

- A chronic infection that lucked out in establishing a foothold in a healthy person

- A runaway immune system that can’t calm down

- A vulnerable energy production system that gets tipped into chaos by environmental factors

If it’s the last one, then perhaps one of the vulnerable progenitors is a congital inabiltiy to produce sufficient surplus NAD+. Maybe these NAD+ stores get worse with age and various traumas (of which infection is an especially potent one).

Of course you don’t see many 60+ year olds suddenly coming down with CFS, and that’s when NAD+ stores should be lowest, so this theory may be overly simplistic

 

[Learner1]

Having spent more time than I ever thought I would around senior living, assisted living, rehab facilities and skilled nursing facilities, I couldn't help but observe that most of the inhabitants seem to suffer from a growing snowball over the years of malnutrition.

Just my opinion. But, when I see the nutrient poor white food that these places seem to specialize in, and the people seem to.like, it confirms my suspicions.

And then making a game of watching what people choose to eat for lunch at the well stocked buffet in my office building, where healthy choices abound, but 75% of people choose sad little piles of brown and white food rather than colorful nutrient dense food with adequate healthy fat. The trajectory from age 30 to age 80 becomes apparent...

So, it doesn't surprise me that people lack NAD+, a niacin derivative.

And amino acids and lipids build structures in our bodies, while other nutrients provide the biochemistry for our bodies' systems to work. People lack a lot of things. Oxygen is another key ingredient our bodies need - hypoxia leads to disease.

Keeping our nutrient levels topped off is very important, because then our bodies should be able to do the many jobs they need to do. Without them, we're compromised.

The question would then be “what kind of mito issues is NAD+ best suited to and which are better served with PC, immunotherapy, carnitine, or CoQ10?”

I still have a hunch NAD+’s range is pretty big but there’s very likely types of dysfunction it’s better suited to.

These are excellent questions/observations. This is what we need to figure out.

 

[Jesse2233]

I will be starting a series of NAD+ infusions with Meyers and aminos Monday! Will keep everyone posted

 

[pattismith]

Having spent more time than I ever thought I would around senior living, assisted living, rehab facilities and skilled nursing facilities, I couldn't help but observe that most of the inhabitants seem to suffer from a growing snowball over the years of malnutrition.

Just my opinion. But, when I see the nutrient poor white food that these places seem to specialize in, and the people seem to.like, it confirms my suspicions.

I am convinced as well that my grand parents death was precipitated by the few years they have spent in their nursing home, with the poor nutrition.

This is really a philosophical question but I often wonder what’s more likely to be primary...

- A chronic infection that lucked out in establishing a foothold in a healthy person

- A runaway immune system that can’t calm down

- A vulnerable energy production system that gets tipped into chaos by environmental factors

Jesse, when you will have the answer, I think you will get the nobel prize!

 

[junkcrap50]

I will be starting a series of NAD+ infusions with Meyers and aminos Monday! Will keep everyone posted

Are you going to a NAD treatment center and paying a ton for it/? Or are you getting a doctor to give it to you much cheaper?

 

[Jesse2233]

Are you going to a NAD treatment center and paying a ton for it/? Or are you getting a doctor to give it to you much cheaper?

I’m going to a clinic that does various IV therapies. Luckily my insurance will cover

 

[Learner1]

My insurance won't cover it.

 

[junkcrap50]

I’m going to a clinic that does various IV therapies. Luckily my insurance will cover

My insurance won't cover it.

Perhaps they'd be more likely to cover it if the treatment/bill is presented as "nutritional IV" rather than something exotic like NAD+ therapy from a addiction clinic.

Does your insurance cover your current nutritional infusion with the added low dose of NAD+?

 

[junkcrap50]

In researching NAD+, I saved a lot of links and sent them to my parents and my doctor so they can learn about it. I'm posting it here as an information dump. I hope that's okay. Next post and its links are more important.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thread on Phoenix Rising
(where I first learned about IV NAD+. Pretty short thread.)
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ical-mitochondrial-genetic-repair-poll.57797/

--The full NAD+ infusion protocol is 7-12 days of 1500mg 8 hour infusions everyday. Each infusion is $1,000-$1,500. This is said to replenish deficient levels, and nasal supplementation can then be continued as maintenance.

--South African doctor came up with an "Energy Value" based on pyruvate and lactate labs to determine your NAD+ levels and your NAD Energy Defeciency (NED) sickness. If your "Energy Value" below 100 indicate a need for therapeutic NAD+.
http://www.lunaliving.org/pdf/nad_therapy_e-book.pdf

--One user on PR (Learner1) says that he takes NAD+ via IV but at smaller doses. Says it gives him energy for a day or two.

--He found a sublingal source of real NAD+, which enabled him to sky for 5 hours.
http://liasresearch.com/
http://liasresearch.com/lias-otc.html

--Intranasal NAD+ is available but supposedly sticky and unpleasant.

​

Podcast about IV NAD+
Good background and primer on it - much better than next link. Interviews patient who cured his CFS, Ph.D who researches NAD+, and MD who runs NAD Infusion center. Can listen to audio or read trasncript. Worth reading whole thing. Skim the comments too.
Audio: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/anti-aging-podcasts/what-is-nad/
Transcript: https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/transcripts/transcript-what-is-nad/

--"A lot of the enthusiasm about resveratrol is the fact that it was theoretically driving sirtuin activity. What’s interesting is that sirtuins are like a factory, like any enzyme, they won’t function unless they have, if you like, the raw material for that factory to work on, and NAD is that raw material."

--NAD works at the epigentic level.

--"Another OTC supplement to raise NAD+ is nicotinamide. It can be recycled through to NAD. The negative thing with having too much nicotinamide, as opposed to the other types of NAD precursor [NR and NMN] that I’ve mentioned, is that nicotinamide is a byproduct. Now, you’ve heard we’ve talked about CD38, we’ve talked about sirtuins, and talked about the PARPS. So CD38, the immune modulators, the Sirts, the epigenetic modulators, and PARPS, the DNA repair enzymes. Now all of those three, when they use NAD, they will actually generate nicotinamide as a byproduct. As the levels start to go up in the cell, the nicotinamide starts to inhibit those enzymes, the CD38s, the sirtuins, the PARPs. And so too much nicotinamide, unfortunately, can stop the very reactions that you want to have acting. So, we would probably suggest that getting it from some of the other sources, the nicotinamide riboside, NMN, or nicotinic acid would be better."

--"You can find nicotinamide riboside as a supplement, and nicotinamide riboside, like NMN, will be converted through to NAD. In fact, nicotinamide riboside is converted first to NMN, and then through to NAD.... But taking the other two, the NR, the nicotinamide riboside, or the NMN, neither of those will produce nicotinamide until it goes through NAD."

--Q: "How big of a difference is there between intravenous NAD and taking NAD as a supplemnt"
A: "We suffer from lack of NAD because we’re using it up and not replenished in proper levels, and it’s the cause of underlying aging, and other disease processes. So I think that you have to sort of flood the body with NAD to start off with, but then you can supplement, and that’s why we use intravenous. Then you can supplement NAD with a pure source of NAD that we give intranasally that I think is a very good method of continuing to substitute to boost your NAD levels."

--NAD+ levels drop 40% as you age. Another study showed every 20 years, you experience a 50% drop in NAD+. Another study tested people under 45 and over 45 for their NAD levels and they found that 300% increase in the average between the pre- 45 and post-45. Also, another study shows that it seems to exponentially increase after age 60 the loss of NAD.

--Can measure NAD levels in blood, but hard to get the lab to do it right. Rapidly degrades after blood draw.

--"Even the MTHFR gene has improved with NAD+."

--From the comments on the audio page link: “In the suprachiasmatic nucleus, biological rhythms are maintained by a central clock of around 20,000 pacemaker neurons.¹ These neurons can degenerate with age and oxidative stress. NAMPT/NAD drives the circadian clock feedback cycle through SIRT1 and Clock:BMAL1². As the NAD levels oscillate over the circadian cycle the activity of SIRT1 oscillates linking the metabolic state of the cell through an epigenetic mechanism to the circadian clock.¹”

​

Short Scientific Explanation & Background:
http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/2947-its-a-nad-nad-nad-nad-world
http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/2986-its-a-nad-nad-nad-nad-world-part-ii
http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/676-can-nad-help-extend-human-lifespan

More Background (not that great):
NAD+ Therapy primer and proposes Energy Value indicator from lactate and pyruvate levels. From South Africa and preceded any US NAD clinic by 10+ years.
http://www.lunaliving.org/pdf/nad_therapy_e-book.pdfDon't read. Just skim pages 1-10, 34-105. (Isn't actuallly 150 pages. Pages 106-150 are references. Skip pages 10-33. Skim rest: 1-10, 34-105, with large chucks able to be skipped. So it's probably really just ~15 pages of worth skimming.)

NAD+ in Press:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/beyond-resveratrol-the-anti-aging-nad-fad/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4370092/Is-pink-pill-elixir-youth.html
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bn3vmq/nad-plus-brain-reboot-infusion-injection

Important Papers on NAD+ and aging:
Declining NAD+ Induces a Pseudohypoxic State [my emphsis] Disrupting Nuclear-Mitochondrial Communication during Aging, which we show is reversable (Pseudohypoxic state has been used to describe the pathology of CFS/ME, like a form of sepsis)
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/genetics/new-reversible-cause-aging-12-19-13
Full paper & abstract: http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(13)01521-3

NAD Key in Autoimmune Disease: delays disease onset and reverses disease progression
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/new-discovery-regulating-autoimmune-diseases

Full paper and abstract: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6101

"Here we show that administration of NAD+ protects against EAE and reverses disease progression by regulating CD4+ T-cell differentiation and apoptosis through a novel signalling pathway and by promoting myelin and axonal regeneration."

NAD+ Is a Food Component That Promotes Exit from Dauer Diapause in Caenorhabditis elegans
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0167208

Note: Naviaux called CFS/ME a "dauer" state and said our metabolimics and disease most closely resembled the dauer state in C. elegans. He's used this same model and dauer state for our disease.
Discussion: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...that-promotes-exit-from-dauer-diapause.57363/​

Other NAD+ Papers and Research:
NAD+ and NADH in cellular functions and cell death
NAD+ and NADH in brain functions, brain diseases, and brain aging
NAD+/NADH and NADP+/NADPH in cell ular functions and cell death: regulation and biological consequences.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53580835e4b0c3ad7382ddb6/t/5384b2b3e4b0b1911ba23a44/1401205427488/J) NAD+.pdf

Neuronal death induced by misfolded prion protein is due to NAD+ depletion and can be relieved in vitro and in vivo by NAD+ replenishment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25678560

Prevention of Traumatic Brain Injury-Induced Neuron Death by Intranasal Delivery of Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/neu.2011.2228

NAD+ Intermediates: The Biology and Therapeutic Potential of NMN and NRNeed to use ATP to convert NR to NAD+
http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(17)30670-8

Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a Key NAD+ Intermediate, Treats the Pathophysiology of Diet- and Age-Induced Diabetes in Mice. Cell Metabolism.
https://www.decodedscience.org/nmn-nicotinamide-mononucleotide-lowers-blood-glucose-in-mice/3616

"Clocks" in the NAD World: NAD as a metabolic oscillator for the regulation of circadian rhythem, metabolism, and aging.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/19897060

Pharmacological Effects of Exogenous NAD on Mitochondrial Bioenergetics, DNA Repair, and Apoptosis
http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/molpharm/early/2011/09/14/mol.111.073916.full.pdf

Differences Between NAD+ Metabolites Nicotinamide Mononucleotide (NMN) and Nicotinamide Riboside (NR):
Niagen offers NR and that's what has been done in human studies showing increase in NAD+. It's also a product that came out first. NMN appears to be better, but there's only a few products of it out there and there isn't a human study showing its effectiveness. TokyoU & WashU are starting a human trial in 2018 to be done in 2020. Links below is from a site that sells NMN supplements, but has some good graphs and data from the research. The site may have more pages that show more info too.
http://alivebynature.com/nmn-or-nr-whats-the-best-nad-booster-3/
http://alivebynature.com/about-niagen/
http://alivebynature.com/does-nr-break-down-to-nam-before-nad/
http://alivebynature.com/in-nmn-the-best-way-to-improve-your-healthspan/
http://alivebynature.com/nicotinamide-riboside-optimum-dosage/

Interesting Evidence:
Total and complete normalization of QEEG scan by NAD+. Look at before and after pictures. Same type of scan I had for neurobiofeedback (they even mention Dr. Jay Gunkelman who read my scan). A lot more effective than neurobiofeedback ever was.
https://emerald-neuro-recover.com/brain-scan

"NeuroRecover ™ has been shown on SPECT brain scans performed at the Dr. Daniel Amen Clinics, in images taken before and after treatment, to promptly bring about significant improvement in function in the drug-damaged brain." I'm emailing and waiting to hear if they have pictures/evidence/a case study of this claim.
http://chwbonline.com/medical-services/neurorecover/

Compounding Pharmacies that Sell It
https://supplementpolice.com/nad/#comment-21937

Archway Apocathy in Louisiana (also do a nasal spray & oral NAD+)
Anazoa Phamacy in Tampa​

https://www.alternet.org/drugs/does...iracle-cure-addiction-and-disease-really-work

Hayden Pharmacy​

https://www.reddit.com/r/StackAdvice/comments/5pq00p/where_to_get_iv_nad_solution/

College Pharmacy
Comment saying a "full protocol" costs $1,000 from College Pharmacy and having a doctor friend prescribe it.​

NAD+ Infusion Clinics Pages:
Springfield Wellness started/brought NAD in/to the US. Longest running clinc providing NAD and have developed the protocols.
http://www.springfieldwellnesscenter.com/
https://custommedicine.com.au/nad-nicotinamide-adenine-dinucleotide/
https://innovativemedicine.com/closer-look-nad-brain-restoration-therapy/
https://www.ivforlife.com/nad-fountain-youth-2/
http://chwbonline.com/medical-services/neurorecover/

Conference on NAD+ Therapy:
https://www.nadsummit2018.com/
http://www.brplusnadsummit.com/about-our-summit/
(From the podcast interview) http://www.brplusnadsummit.com/ross-grant-phd/
(From next NAD+ email and blog, Anti-agingFirewall.com) http://www.brplusnadsummit.com/james-paul-watson-m-d/

Videos / Testimonials
Parkinsons and NAD+

Alzheimer's and NAD+

NADH (not NAD+) and Parkinsons (There have been previous, older studies of NADH improving Parkinsons. This video is pretty extraordinary.)

 

[junkcrap50]

Another information dump.

@Learner1, if you read this 5 part review of NAD+ research, the author, Guilliano, explains how restoring NAD+ levels can actually reduce overall inflammation and mitochondrial inflammation. NAD+ is actually a key mechanism to controlling inflammation. So, there's some evidence that you might not spin the mitochondrial to cause excessive inflammation.

To others, if you can handle deep scientific literature, then these links is all you need to read on NAD+.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very good blog that has a HUGE amount of VERY in-depth research on antiaging science: http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/. I mean the depth, detail, and complexity this blogger/scientist covers is remarkable and overwhelming. He has very good articles on all kinds of things, so it's worth browsing the rest of it looking at the article titles. But he goes on a 5 Part review of research into NAD+ that I will link and try to summarize below. Make sure to read the comments at the end/bottom of each article/blog entry.

About the Site/Author:
The author, Vince Guiliano Ph.D.He's currently 88 years old and started the blog when he was 79. He has a PhD in applied physics from Harvard. His first blog post explains what he's does 30-60 hours per week of longevity/anti-aging research. His bio is at the bottom of any blogs writen by him (can't link directly to it). A different bio is here:
http://www.vincegiuliano.name/VGBIObiotech2011.htm

He also has a co-blogger, James P. Watson MD that's contributed a lot to the NAD+ articles. He's spoken at an AMMG meetings and has one talk on youtube. His bio is at the bottom of each blog he writes, but also found here:
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/author/james-watson/

Link to picture of NAD+ pathways/metabolism:
The NAD+ metablism and the different forms of it can be very confusing. So below are some pictures of good metabolish pathways. Part 1 of the blog series has a glossary of all the terms.
http://alivebynature.com/june/wp-content/uploads/NAD-metabolism-in-humans.jpg
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...thways-The-reactions-marked-with_fig8_6470310

Slideshow Presentation (Condensed Overview)
Author gave a talk that is basically a condensed summary of his 5 part review. He also links to his slides. At the bottom of the article he lists the 5 parts of his NAD+ review.
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2018/01/16/tales-nad-presentation-coming/
(Direct Link to Slides:www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/__oneclick_uploads/2018/01/Giuliano-Lecture-on-NAD2-4-18.pptx)

Notable quotes / bullet points from blog entry and slides:

"Finally, I comment on the possible reason why IV infusions of NAD may be beneficial when levels of NAD+ are so depleted that oral supplements may not be capable of overcoming the effects of a deleterious positive feedback cycle."

-- NAD+ is used in both consuming and non-consuming processes.

Slide 16: Note how Nictoninamide (NCA) blocks Sirtuins

--Vital role in circadian rhythem (genes: PER2, CLOCK)

"If your circadian rhythms and body clocks are off, NAD+ and Sirtuin enzyme levels may be too low, resulting in body circadian clocks not work well."

"nicotinamide inhibits Sirtuins"

"With aging there is not enough NAD+ to satify the multiple needs for it. Its usages in the body are triggered and rationed, with negative conseques across the body."

"Declining NAD+ induces a pseudohypoxic state disrupting nuclear-mitochondrial communication during aging."

"Because there is much positive feedback among these Cycles if something goes wrong, and there are many many opportunities for this to happen,, the body may not be able to restore healthy NAD+ and NAD+/ NAD ratios without an extraordinary intervention. I strongly conjecture that IV NAD infusions are now the best and possibly only way to provide such a rebooting intervention."

​

NAD+ an emerging framework for health and life extension
Part 1: The NAD World
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...rk-for-life-extension-part-1-the-nad-world-2/
Part 2: Deeper into the NAD Wrold and Hopeful Interventions
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...per-into-the-nad-world-hopeful-interventions/
Part 3: 30 Major Factors that Control SIRT1 Expression, SIRT1 Activity, and SIRT1-mediated Aging
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...ging-framework-for-health-and-life-extension/
Part 4: The NQ01 gene, the Warburg effect, SIRT 1 and inflammation, and possible interventions
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2015/05/01/part-4-of-the-nad-world-the-nq1-gene-the-warburg-effect-sirt-1-and-inflammation-and-possible-interventions/
Part 5: the conflicting roles of NAMPT – inflammation or rescue? Also Part 1 on a new series on inflammation
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...-also-part-1-on-a-new-series-on-inflammation/
Part 6: How Google is getting into NAD+ businesss, why Google’s strategy will fail, why NR/NMN/NAD+ will not stop aging.
Not yet published

Other Articles that Discuss NAD+:
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...list-of-things-i-learned-about-aging-in-2013/
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...lation-nmn-preventing-diabetes-and-longevity/
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2014/04/14/shedding-new-light-on-circadian-rhythms/

 

[Learner1]

Thanks digging this up! I'll read through it.

This could be why oxygen therapies are helpful too (written from inside an HBOT...)

From what I've seen this far, NAD+ is a great tool. I feel much better after today's IV containing it.

However, if mitochondrial membranes are damaged, mitochondria are filled with toxic stuff as in the photos I posted above (which came straight from the researcher I met at a mitochondrial conference), or mtDNA is damaged, you can take all the NAD+ in the world and it won't fix those problems. One needs additional interventions for these.

One other point... Nicotinamide riboside, niacinamide, and NAD+ are not the same substance and not interchangeable for many of us. They may be in healthy athletes, but we may have broken pathways that make us need NAD+. I've tried 2 45 day experiments 8 months apart with 1g of NR which did absolutely nothing for me, while NADH helped some, but NAD+ is like rocket fuel.

 

[junkcrap50]

Yeah, I hear you. This video of a presentation Bill Faloon (founder of Life Extension Magazine and Foundation), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z44di2AEWz4, discusses 2 interventions that may be applicable to solving these mitochondial issues. I haven't investigated or researched them (nor totally comprehend the finer points of your arguement), so you will have to look into each of them.

Particularily, Purge senescent cells with dasatinib/quercetin and Remove cellular debris with rapamycin might be helpful.

Slide of the presentation and topics discussed:

He also talks briefly about NAD+ and even shows that he himself has undergone IV NAD+ therapy. He also says that he's funded a small study looking at NAD+ and claims to have its results out soon.

The conference he was giving his presentation was called RAADFest and is an antiaging science conference discussing the latest radical technologies.

 

[junkcrap50]

However, if mitochondrial membranes are damaged, mitochondria are filled with toxic stuff as in the photos I posted above (which came straight from the researcher I met at a mitochondrial conference, or mtDNA is damaged, you can take all the NAD+ in the world and it won't fix those problems. One needs additional interventions for these.

I'm sure you're aware of Phosphatidylcholine IV Therapy aka Lipid Replacement Therapy aka Phophoglycolipid IV Therapy that is supposedly able to repair mitochondrial and cellular membranes.

 

[Jesse2233]

@junkcrap50 great compilation of resources!

What are your thoughts / overall impression of NAD+ IV therapy after reading everything?

 

[Learner1]

I'm sure you're aware of Phosphatidylcholine IV Therapy aka Lipid Replacement Therapy aka Phophoglycolipid IV Therapy that is supposedly able to repair mitochondrial and cellular membranes.

PC is just one lipid, and one needs a functioning Kennedy pathway to make all the conversions to the other phospholipids. NT Factor has the correct ratio of all the lipids.

 

[aquariusgirl]

I would like to know what kind of insurance would cover NAD infusions?

 

[Learner1]

Me too.

 

[Jesse2233]

PM me and I’ll share my insurance