Unnerving symptom

[outdamnspot]

Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? I did recall one person mention it in a thread a few months ago. Basically, I feel like my body has been running on adrenaline for years now -- once I crashed and became severe, there was a (subjective?) sensation of generally having low cortisol, but my body seemed to pump out adrenaline to cope.

Now, it's like it can't even manage to do that anymore. When I drink coffee, there's no 'boost'. Vitamin C used to seem to help neurotransmitter synthesis/output, but isn't helpful anymore. My heartbeat is really weak and I feel faint all the time, because it's like there's no adrenaline to cope with standing, moving etc. It's so scary. Coincidentally (or not), this is also usually accompanied by a sensation in my gut and lungs -- like it's coated in some strange mucus -- so I can only guess it's linked to inflammation.

 

[jesse's mom]

I have tried lots of probiotics and NAC it seems to help me.
All the best to you @outdamnspot

 

[Shoshana]

My brain is too muddled right now, and cannot think of anything helpful, other than I am thinking of you @outdamnspot

 

[WoolPippi]

yeah, I recognize this as the phase where your adrenals have crashed and burned. They're not even capable of producing adrenaline anymore. Your body has now pulled the ultimate emergency break. You need to prioritize your health right now or your adrenals will die and so might you. (Adrenal crisis or, if you're lucky, just Addison's disease)

Now you experience too low blood pressure. No glucose to your brain. Can't lift head, can't remember name. I had this in the mornings, when waking up. I was better in the evening. (this is tell tale for cortisol being involved).

Some things to help you:
- get rid of anything burdening your cells and your body. Meaning heavy metals, stress and foods that require energy to digest. Restrict yourself to chicken stock, egg yokes, body builders protein. Take those with HCL pills, vinegar and/or digestive enzymes. Cease all vegetables, whole grains, raw foods, sodas.
- let stress float away. Lie down and try to induce The Relaxation Response. Your body is over-stimulated to the hilt. Get protein, fat, salt and vit. C to aid your adrenals. Perhaps ground up adrenal powders too, such as Biotics Cytozyme AD. You are in need of some serious repair work and this can only be done when your body is in Rest & Digest instead of Fight or Flight.
- get hydrocortisone if you can. Prescribed via doctor. 2,5 mg or 5 mg per dag may be the thing to help your body. But only of you cease beating it up with coffee and stress.
- need to activate the rubbish-route and help your body to get rid of waste. Your waste-routes are bile (take ox-bile), chelating, minerals, salt, water intake, bathing in magnesium, crying, lymph system.
- do not, under any circumstance, start exercising. No running, endurance, HIP, sweating. You now lack the resources for recovering any cellular energy you deplete during sports. Anearobic exercise might be possible. Aerobics not.

Hope this helps a bit. Probably not what you want to hear. Sorry. I've been through what you are describing. I was too wired to listen to this advice, to understand it. I am so sorry you are there now.

 

[Kenshin]

I get this and sometimes the gut symptom of feeling coated in something.
@WoolPippi Good advice, I also improve at night, I wonder about changing my sleep cycle so I'm
sleeping through the day and the worst of the symptoms, although I already sleep late.
High calories and carbohydrate consumption also induce a parasympathetic/rest & digest
state, the drawback of those are more stress on the digestive system.

 

[Mary]

@outdamnspot - I was in a similar position over 20 years ago. My doctor gave me Prozac, which was useless and made me feel awful, I stopped it after 2 days. Then I saw my chiropractor who does muscle testing and he found that my adrenals were wiped out - I was weak as a kitten. He also noted that my pupils were dilated. He gave me Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process (an adrenal glandular product). I had to take about 3 times the regular dose because I was so weak, but within a few days my energy started returning.

This happened before I developed full-blown ME/CFS, before I started crashing (PEM). So I kept on doing what I had done before, high-stress, lots of physical activity, changed nothing in what I was doing - and I went on to develop ME/CFS. In my defense, I didn't know what I was doing. If I'd known then what I know now, I might have been able to avoid ME/CFS, though it's just a guess. I would have had to do many of things @WoolPippi mentions - dealing with stress, not just trying to push through things. but I knew very little back then.

So if you have a decent doctor who will listen to you and check your cortisol and so on, I'd say go see her or him. But doctors like that are a rarety, and if you don't have one, I'd suggest finding a chiropractor who does muscle testing.

And also educate yourself about helping yourself - cut down or eliminate caffeine, sugar, alcohol, all hard on the adrenals, etc. Start meditating (it's simple, you can find easy methods on-line), whatever it takes.

 

[WoolPippi]

I get this and sometimes the gut symptom of feeling coated in something.
@WoolPippi
High calories and carbohydrate consumption also induce a parasympathetic/rest & digest
state, the drawback of those are more stress on the digestive system.

I would not mess with insuline-peaks. Insuline and adrenaline are the two emergency-hormones of the body, only used when there is imminent danger. They both override health promoting processes.

Instead use 5-htp, GABA and bio-identical progesteron cream. These promote Serotonin, gut health and relieve the adrenals. (Cortisol is made from Progesteron which is made from cholesterol, all in the adrenals)
An excess of Progesteron leads to a peak in Pregnenolone which is the most powerful sleep inducing hormone there is.

obligatory warning: dabbling with any hormone is dabbling with rocket fuel. It’s dangerous and powerful. Go low, go slow, understand the hormonal cascade. Insuline, adrenaline and cortisol are all hormones. VitD and 5-htp are pre-hormones.

 

[taniaaust1]

Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? I did recall one person mention it in a thread a few months ago. Basically, I feel like my body has been running on adrenaline for years now -- once I crashed and became severe, there was a (subjective?) sensation of generally having low cortisol, but my body seemed to pump out adrenaline to cope.

Now, it's like it can't even manage to do that anymore .

been there though I did not have any strange lung sensations. My adrenaline was so non functional at one point that when i actually cut in front of a moving tram and almost got hit (I'd mistaken a tram with the buildings behind it) I did not even get any form of adrenaline rush when the tram came so close to hitting me that I could not believe i was not hit. No emotional rush to it at all.

My adrenals must of healed since then as now they just pumping out very abnormally high adrenaline levels.

 

[outdamnspot]

yeah, I recognize this as the phase where your adrenals have crashed and burned. They're not even capable of producing adrenaline anymore. Your body has now pulled the ultimate emergency break. You need to prioritize your health right now or your adrenals will die and so might you. (Adrenal crisis or, if you're lucky, just Addison's disease)

Now you experience too low blood pressure. No glucose to your brain. Can't lift head, can't remember name. I had this in the mornings, when waking up. I was better in the evening. (this is tell tale for cortisol being involved).

Some things to help you:
- get rid of anything burdening your cells and your body. Meaning heavy metals, stress and foods that require energy to digest. Restrict yourself to chicken stock, egg yokes, body builders protein. Take those with HCL pills, vinegar and/or digestive enzymes. Cease all vegetables, whole grains, raw foods, sodas.
- let stress float away. Lie down and try to induce The Relaxation Response. Your body is over-stimulated to the hilt. Get protein, fat, salt and vit. C to aid your adrenals. Perhaps ground up adrenal powders too, such as Biotics Cytozyme AD. You are in need of some serious repair work and this can only be done when your body is in Rest & Digest instead of Fight or Flight.
- get hydrocortisone if you can. Prescribed via doctor. 2,5 mg or 5 mg per dag may be the thing to help your body. But only of you cease beating it up with coffee and stress.
- need to activate the rubbish-route and help your body to get rid of waste. Your waste-routes are bile (take ox-bile), chelating, minerals, salt, water intake, bathing in magnesium, crying, lymph system.
- do not, under any circumstance, start exercising. No running, endurance, HIP, sweating. You now lack the resources for recovering any cellular energy you deplete during sports. Anearobic exercise might be possible. Aerobics not.

Hope this helps a bit. Probably not what you want to hear. Sorry. I've been through what you are describing. I was too wired to listen to this advice, to understand it. I am so sorry you are there now.

Thanks for your response. You're right it's not really pleasant to hear, but I can't say I'm surprised either. I'm just glad to experience some kind of validation because I wanted to describe this problem to my doctor but I couldn't think of a way to do so that sounded medically valid: "I've run out of adrenaline" might sound a bit pseudoscientific.

I've described my living situation frequently on here, so I won't go into it again, but our house is very noisy and my family is emotionally abusive, so it's effectively impossible for me to maintain a normal sleep-cycle or cut down on stress. I do my best to rest where possible and spend most of my time lying down in ear-plugs/ear-muffs, but I can't have a regular sleep pattern, even though I know it would help me; it's just not possible.

I am curious why you suggest just 2.5-5mg of HC? My impression was that it needed to be taken 4x a day. It isn't prescribed in Australia off-label, but I did order a bottle a few years ago; I tried it briefly, taken 4x day (I was also less sick) but stopped because of side-effects. Since I wake up at about 1-2pm, would it be pointless to try a single dose when I wake up?

I do also have a bottle of Thorne's adrenal cortex I had wanted to try but wasn't sure if it could have paradoxical effects or make things worse in this state..

 

[WoolPippi]

I am curious why you suggest just 2.5-5mg of HC? My impression was that it needed to be taken 4x a day. It isn't prescribed in Australia off-label, but I did order a bottle a few years ago; I tried it briefly, taken 4x day (I was also less sick) but stopped because of side-effects. Since I wake up at about 1-2pm, would it be pointless to try a single dose when I wake up?

Because HC is a Serious Drug. Hormones are about the most powerful drugs you can take.

Like all hormones you can't just dive in, you have to go low, go slow. It's a blood level you're building up to. Taking too much at once might knock out your adrenals. 20 mg/day will make the adrenals stop working altogether, whether you build up to that dosage slow or not. A person with functioning adrenals might knock them out with just 10 mg/day, I don't know, I'm cautious, with reason.

I was hoping 2,5-5mg of HC might be just enough to scaffold your adrenals a bit. Not knock them out. But I have no way of knowing where your adrenals are on the adrenal crash scale. It sounds like you are all over the place too wired, no long periods of safe haven, a little bit of this or that riles up the system extremely, things are out of proportion. You seem to not have crashed and died yet but you are well on your way: your stress system is out of whack and cannot handle your living situation any more. High cortisol will lower your immune system and make you vulnerable to diseases. Once your adrenals crash for good low cortisol will erode your body from within and you will die slowly, albeit not from a cold because your immune system will be full on diva without cortisol to temper it.

I have some tips for your current living situation to preserve energy where possible:
- preserve digestive energy. Eat egg yokes, chicken stock, body builders protein (Pepto Pro is my choice). Each one provides full spectrum amino acids and no gristle (like in meat) for your system to waste energy on. Protein does tire the system though so take it with a bit of stomach acid (HCL pill, diluted lemon juice, diluted vinegar) and even digestive enzymes. Full spectrum amino acids do not need vitamins for uptake. Only carbohydrates require vitamins for digestion. Don't eat vegetables, especially not raw or leafy or whole grain things. This require a lot of digestive energy. Drink vegetable water or smoothy if you feel you need veggies.

- your ear mufflers. Excellent. And the lying down bit. Of course you need salt and water and vit C to help your adrenals to keep blood pressure up. The reason for blood pressure is to press nutrients into your tissues. (amino acids = nutrients). Nutrients in your tissues equal bodily repairs. So lying down is good.

- The Relaxation Response. Gets your adrenal system out of Fight or Flight. Indulge in some of those meditation tapes, singing whales, herb wearing hippies chanting. You're not there for the enlightenment, you need the physical relaxation which is a scientific thing your nervous system does. The parasympathetic nervous system to be more precise. The system that runs on cholines, which are found in egg yokes.

- reduce time/attention for anyone who does not build you up. Toxic people, demanding people, nagging people, whining people, needy people. Baiiiiiii. Just have your eyes glaze over, build a mental Avenger shield around you and smile. Retreat emotionally from these people, if physical retreat is not possible.
You can physically remove them from your live, I highly recommend this. You can always say you need a year fro yourself and you'll contact them first thing 2020.

- start harvesting endorphines. These will help your nervous system get out and stay out of Fight or Flight. Put on your ear mufflers, lay back, close your eyes, wiggle your toes and let your subconscious tell you what you(r body) would like to do for fun today. Then do it. It may be taking a bath and clipping your nails. It may be walking a dog. Sitting in a book store. Crashing your bike into a pond. Pouring flour all over yourself and the kitchen. I don't know. It can be anything and it probably feels mundane, silly, stupid, immature but I don't care one bit what judgement your mind attaches to it (!!). Just lie back, listen to what might put a smile on your face today and then do that. (Again, not here for the giggles, here for the parasympathetic nervous system.)

- the sleeping problem... this is a worry. Don't bother with melatonin, it will probably rile up your messed up system anyway. You might want to look into Progesteron and DHEA instead. Your adrenals are supposed to make these and use them for building cortisol out of. They can also be converted to Pregnenolone which is the most powerful sleeping hormone known to man. But remember: these are al hormones, you are messing with rocket fuel here.

At this point your system is so overwhelmed and overstimulated and trying to survive with both the choke and break full on that there is not one magic pill to cure you. But the multi-angle approach will lessen the burden on your cortisol/ stress system and make it more robust so it can fight this disease. Rest it, feed it, alleviate it, make it smile.

Yes, I'd take HC at the time you wake up. Normal people have their peak at 8 in the morning and have 80% of their dosage before noon. If your wake up time is at another time I'd try and mimic that curve and worry about shifting the curve back to its regular time in the 24 hour cycle at a later date.

interestingly: before cortisol starts at 6 o clock in the morning there's the REM phase of your sleep and this is when the Human Growth Hormone peaks. HGH = the major repair hormone of the body. Peak from 4 to 6 in the morning. Helping HGH will repair better than helping cortisol. Cortisol is to get you through a day, HGH is to repair you structurally.

HGH is helped by adequate Magnesium intake (-citrate -bisglicinate and -malate are good) and by Kalium (Potassium in USA). Of course Kalium needs to be balanced by Sodium, which your adrenals need, so take both. Progesteron, Testosteron and Oestrogen levels all help with HGH. And.... HGH needs full spectrum amino acids. Egg yokes and/or chicken stock again.

 

[outdamnspot]

Because HC is a Serious Drug. Hormones are about the most powerful drugs you can take.

Like all hormones you can't just dive in, you have to go low, go slow. It's a blood level you're building up to. Taking too much at once might knock out your adrenals. 20 mg/day will make the adrenals stop working altogether, whether you build up to that dosage slow or not. A person with functioning adrenals might knock them out with just 10 mg/day, I don't know, I'm cautious, with reason.

I was hoping 2,5-5mg of HC might be just enough to scaffold your adrenals a bit. Not knock them out. But I have no way of knowing where your adrenals are on the adrenal crash scale. It sounds like you are all over the place too wired, no long periods of safe haven, a little bit of this or that riles up the system extremely, things are out of proportion. You seem to not have crashed and died yet but you are well on your way: your stress system is out of whack and cannot handle your living situation any more. High cortisol will lower your immune system and make you vulnerable to diseases. Once your adrenals crash for good low cortisol will erode your body from within and you will die slowly, albeit not from a cold because your immune system will be full on diva without cortisol to temper it.

I have some tips for your current living situation to preserve energy where possible:
- preserve digestive energy. Eat egg yokes, chicken stock, body builders protein (Pepto Pro is my choice). Each one provides full spectrum amino acids and no gristle (like in meat) for your system to waste energy on. Protein does tire the system though so take it with a bit of stomach acid (HCL pill, diluted lemon juice, diluted vinegar) and even digestive enzymes. Full spectrum amino acids do not need vitamins for uptake. Only carbohydrates require vitamins for digestion. Don't eat vegetables, especially not raw or leafy or whole grain things. This require a lot of digestive energy. Drink vegetable water or smoothy if you feel you need veggies.

- your ear mufflers. Excellent. And the lying down bit. Of course you need salt and water and vit C to help your adrenals to keep blood pressure up. The reason for blood pressure is to press nutrients into your tissues. (amino acids = nutrients). Nutrients in your tissues equal bodily repairs. So lying down is good.

- The Relaxation Response. Gets your adrenal system out of Fight or Flight. Indulge in some of those meditation tapes, singing whales, herb wearing hippies chanting. You're not there for the enlightenment, you need the physical relaxation which is a scientific thing your nervous system does. The parasympathetic nervous system to be more precise. The system that runs on cholines, which are found in egg yokes.

- reduce time/attention for anyone who does not build you up. Toxic people, demanding people, nagging people, whining people, needy people. Baiiiiiii. Just have your eyes glaze over, build a mental Avenger shield around you and smile. Retreat emotionally from these people, if physical retreat is not possible.
You can physically remove them from your live, I highly recommend this. You can always say you need a year fro yourself and you'll contact them first thing 2020.

- start harvesting endorphines. These will help your nervous system get out and stay out of Fight or Flight. Put on your ear mufflers, lay back, close your eyes, wiggle your toes and let your subconscious tell you what you(r body) would like to do for fun today. Then do it. It may be taking a bath and clipping your nails. It may be walking a dog. Sitting in a book store. Crashing your bike into a pond. Pouring flour all over yourself and the kitchen. I don't know. It can be anything and it probably feels mundane, silly, stupid, immature but I don't care one bit what judgement your mind attaches to it (!!). Just lie back, listen to what might put a smile on your face today and then do that. (Again, not here for the giggles, here for the parasympathetic nervous system.)

- the sleeping problem... this is a worry. Don't bother with melatonin, it will probably rile up your messed up system anyway. You might want to look into Progesteron and DHEA instead. Your adrenals are supposed to make these and use them for building cortisol out of. They can also be converted to Pregnenolone which is the most powerful sleeping hormone known to man. But remember: these are al hormones, you are messing with rocket fuel here.

At this point your system is so overwhelmed and overstimulated and trying to survive with both the choke and break full on that there is not one magic pill to cure you. But the multi-angle approach will lessen the burden on your cortisol/ stress system and make it more robust so it can fight this disease. Rest it, feed it, alleviate it, make it smile.

Yes, I'd take HC at the time you wake up. Normal people have their peak at 8 in the morning and have 80% of their dosage before noon. If your wake up time is at another time I'd try and mimic that curve and worry about shifting the curve back to its regular time in the 24 hour cycle at a later date.

interestingly: before cortisol starts at 6 o clock in the morning there's the REM phase of your sleep and this is when the Human Growth Hormone peaks. HGH = the major repair hormone of the body. Peak from 4 to 6 in the morning. Helping HGH will repair better than helping cortisol. Cortisol is to get you through a day, HGH is to repair you structurally.

HGH is helped by adequate Magnesium intake (-citrate -bisglicinate and -malate are good) and by Kalium (Potassium in USA). Of course Kalium needs to be balanced by Sodium, which your adrenals need, so take both. Progesteron, Testosteron and Oestrogen levels all help with HGH. And.... HGH needs full spectrum amino acids. Egg yokes and/or chicken stock again.

I'm not doubting you, but I remember that the first time I tried HC, I was corresponding with Ema who used to post here and she said the exact opposite .. that starting on doses that are too low can shut down the adrenals, and hence she recommended going directly to 20mg, which is why I did. I tend to fast for a few hours upon waking so if I decide to try it, can it be taken on an empty stomach?

Also, would it be safer to try an Adrenal Cortex first? Since I am so used to anything I put into my body having a paradoxical reaction/triggering my crash, I have wondered if things like ACE or HC can crash us further .. but I guess that wouldn't make sense if people with Addison's/no cortisol take HC. Have you heard of people getting worse on the Adrenal extracts or would it more likely just not do anything helpful?

Right now, because of severe food sensitivities, I am only eating meat and chicken .. I am trying to find a fat source I can tolerate because I know it's important for energy, but that's proving difficult. I'm intolerant of eggs; I tried just the yolks the past couple of days and they may have been problematic, but it's hard to tell because I'm in a crash anyway. I had trouble with protein powders in the past too.

I do take plenty of sodium/potassium as salt, but struggle to tolerate Magnesium.

I'm sure you are not trying to scare me, but I'm pretty aware I'm likely to die from this. I kind of treat life like a game now where I think "okay, what can I do to get through one more day?". But there is no long-term solution with my situation, and it really isn't my fault -- I tried my best to get away from the abuse and was never helped. So here I am.

 

[WoolPippi]

I'm not doubting you, but I remember that the first time I tried HC, I was corresponding with Ema who used to post here and she said the exact opposite .. that starting on doses that are too low can shut down the adrenals, and hence she recommended going directly to 20mg, which is why I did. I tend to fast for a few hours upon waking so if I decide to try it, can it be taken on an empty stomach?

Well, 20 mg will make the adrenals stop producing for sure because that's about what they make on a normal, low-stress day and if you supplement it blood levels will be detected and the brain will not ask the adrenals to produce any.

Are we perhaps talking about two different things? aiding the production from the adrenals vs. shut down by compensating all of their production?

Shut down is not preferred. There are worries they won't come "online" on their own again after a prolonged period of shut down. People say "adrenals shrivel up after a long period of inactivity" but I've never heard a professional say so. Haven't talked to too many professionals though, mostly users. So I keep room for Ema's approach but you've got to think it through, make sure it's part of a whole that makes sense.

I have never, ever heard of going to 20 mg at once. I have always heard go low, go slow. This is in the worlds of Adrenal Insufficiency, Addison's disease, Hormonal Replacement Therapy in general (HRT) and people taking HC to help with chronic fatigue.

I started it to help with fatigue and was started by an official endocrinologist who loves HRT and he said: "5 mg per day. Do for 2 weeks, see what it does for you."
I got so wired that I stopped! I started again at a later date, when I had my Copper-Zinc in better balance, and then it helped. I was able to rest better.

A few years later I was diagnosed with Adrenal Insufficiency and now I supplement all production which for me comes to 17,5 mg on a very peaceful day inside or to 35 mg per day when outside walking in winter cold and with people. Plus 0,1 mg of Aldosterone (Fludrocortison) for blood pressure. This one is a mineral-corticosteroid. HC is a gluco-corticosteroid.

Yes you can take it on an empty stomach. A (part of a) HC pill takes 45 minutes to be converted into cortisol. I take my waking dose of 5 mg with a sip of salted water when I wake up and then I lie in bed like a zombie for 45 minutes. Then I feel it coursing through my veins and I am well enough to get up. Yes it is a drug. It's steroids you're taking. This really is serious business.

Also, would it be safer to try an Adrenal Cortex first? Since I am so used to anything I put into my body having a paradoxical reaction/triggering my crash, I have wondered if things like ACE or HC can crash us further .. but I guess that wouldn't make sense if people with Addison's/no cortisol take HC. Have you heard of people getting worse on the Adrenal extracts or would it more likely just not do anything helpful?

I get worse on adrenal extracts, at first glance. It boosts my system. This is only good when the system can lose the waste products that result from the boost. Otherwise: high up in the curtains, gnawing on the curtain rail.

So the waste elimination processes of your body must be functioning. This involves your bile, your lymph system and last part of the methylation cycle in your cells. (I'm less interested in your poo and pee).
Your bile will only run when your stomach is acid enough (which is governed by cortisol levels). Shortage of bile will result in light coloured poo that floats. Bile is the main waste disposal for hormones, heavy metals and the like.

Lymph system only works with stretching and yawning and with full fats (which are not consumed from intestine wall to liver but from intestine wall directly to lymph system and lymph notes. Interesting huh?)

If the last part of the methylation cycle does not work properly adrenal extracts will result in your cells overflowing with ammonia. Say what?
Yes.
This is what happens to me when I take adrenal extracts. The reason being DNA-mutations that prevent my cells from using vit B12 en vit D and folate acid and progesteron properly. MTR/MTRR; MAO A; VDR Taq; MTHFR C677+1298 and CYP2C 19*17

So you see, it all depends. Yes I've heard of people crashing on adrenal extracts, I'm one of them. But I can explain. And I can circumvent it and then adrenal extracts help me.

For you I suspect extracts will smack your system around too much. Ashwaganda etc. too, avoid.

Right now, because of severe food sensitivities, I am only eating meat and chicken .. I am trying to find a fat source I can tolerate because I know it's important for energy, but that's proving difficult. I'm intolerant of eggs; I tried just the yolks the past couple of days and they may have been problematic, but it's hard to tell because I'm in a crash anyway. I had trouble with protein powders in the past too.

damn.
I use coconut fat. And organic full fat butter.
Amino acids in a pill? take with HCL, lemon juice, ox bile. (but don't ask me how to get these things when you're crashed. I'm so sorry.)

Don't eat the lean meat of cow or chicken, it has no nutrients. You need the bone marrow, the joints, the liver, the chicken skin and the fat marbled meat pieces.
That's why chicken stock.

Think of yourself as a blob of cells in a petri dish: what would a lab technician give his favourite blobs? That's what you need.

I do take plenty of sodium/potassium as salt, but struggle to tolerate Magnesium.

Bathing in Magnesium Sulphate is another way of getting it into you, I hear. That's Epsom Salts.

I'm sure you are not trying to scare me, but I'm pretty aware I'm likely to die from this. I kind of treat life like a game now where I think "okay, what can I do to get through one more day?". But there is no long-term solution with my situation, and it really isn't my fault -- I tried my best to get away from the abuse and was never helped. So here I am.

I'm sorry for the situation you've now found yourself in.
Luckily you have some things in your bag for this journey: your body is an amazing survival tool. Right now it's operating on a high level, even if it doesn't make sense to us. There's logic behind its reasoning, for example why it reacts to certain things you eat or experience (sounds etc.) the way it does. If we could just understand it more... then we could help it.
That's the other positive thing: your body is made for survival and it will gladly embrace any little thing you give it. So it does not matter much if you do the exact best thing, you can do anything, and it only has to be a little good, and your body will take it and run with it in the right direction.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I do also have a bottle of Thorne's adrenal cortex I had wanted to try but wasn't sure if it could have paradoxical effects or make things worse in this state..

Also, would it be safer to try an Adrenal Cortex first?

I think it would, and the closer to nature the better. Am attaching a link for the Adrenal Cortex made by the same people who make the Beef Liver that's worked so well for me .... pure, total New Zealand beef, pristine clean product, and as close to nature as you can get without eating a cow. It's not cheap, but it's your life, sooooo .... here's the link.

https://ancestralsupplements.com/adrenal

It's also available from Amazon with 2 day ship.

Start low and slow. I started the beef liver on one cap (recommended dose is 6 a day, more if you prefer) for 4 or 5 days, moved up to 2, lather rinse repeat til I got to 6. I have to remove the beef liver from the caps because they're gelatin and I'm highly reactive t glutamate-anything, you might want to do the same, in which case I recommend tomato juice, it kills the flavor remarkably well. I use Lakewood Low Sodium (I add sea salt to it) Super Veggie Juice, cold-pressed, organic, flash pasteurized. You can use any tomato-y thing you want.

I can't recommend the company or their products highly enough. The difference the desiccated beef liver has made in my life is astounding. I'm hoping the adrenal will do the same for you. You need a lucky break.

The company owner will follow up with and email to see how you're adjusting to the product, and will help you in any way he can. He's a good sort. Brian Johnson I think.

HGH needs full spectrum amino acids.

I don't do well on protein powders, no matter how good they are or how highly recommended. They screw with my system in unpleasant ways, and many of them aren't full spectrum Aside from that, there are additional benefits from beef, particularly, that you can't get from whey protein, pea protein, or whatever, in he form of sulfurs critical to the bdy's production of everything from enzyme systems to hormones
The adrenal cortex with have a modest amount, you can fill in with any full-spectrum amino you tolerate. Egg yolks aren't optimal, the egg whites have more protein, your steak and chicken program will probably suit your needs here, with an emphasis on steak.

I do take plenty of sodium/potassium as salt

Not the best source. Salt substitutes (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, I could be wrong) are fairly processed, usually with an assortment of chemicals. Sea salt and potassium gluconate are what I use. If you go this route, lemme know, I'll shoot you how much of each I take and you can tailor to your needs.

I'm pretty aware I'm likely to die from this

No. You're not. One of the better ways to do yourself in is to convince yourself that you're headed down that long, dusty trail. STOP IT!!! Focus on, meditate on, mantra on, the power of your body to heal itself, on the strength you have to let it do that, and on helping it out in any way you can. @WoolPippi has all the right ideas, especially in relation to supporting the positive side of your CNS. Whatever you do, DO IT LOW AND SLOW, and stick as close to natural as you can, especially at the start of the healing.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

You need the bone marrow, the joints, the liver

The same company that produces the natural, desiccated adrenal gland product I linked for you above also produces Bone Marrow, cartilage, joints, and of course, desiccated beef liver. In fact they produce absolutely every type of glandular you can think of, some of them quite disgusting. But helpful if you need them.

These ARE NOT EXTRACTS, at least not as I understand extracts. These are the full glands with everything those glands contain, carefully dried and ground into powder and put in gelatin capsules, completely unaltered from their natural constituent state.

I use coconut fat. And organic full fat butter.

I also use cconut oil and ghee, which is clarified butter. An acquired taste, but a good source of full-spectrum fats, butyric acids, etc. I didn't think of ghee when I left you the list of oils.

Don't eat the lean meat of cow or chicken, it has no nutrients

I don't entirely agree They are loaded with one particular and important nutrient for you right now: full spectrum amino acids.

For you I suspect extracts will smack your system around too much. Ashwaganda etc. too, avoid.

Totally agree. Avoid all adaptogens from ashwaganda to gotu kola and everything in between, around, or on either side. NOT YOUR FRIENDS right now. Maybe latter. Who knows.

I'm so beat right now I can hardly sit up or keep my eyes open. More later if I think of it. @WoolPippi knows her stuff, and clearly has walked your road. But we're all different, even when we're dealing with the same shite, so follow what you body is telling you, and keep trying until you find the magical combo.

We're all here for you.

 

[outdamnspot]

Well, 20 mg will make the adrenals stop producing for sure because that's about what they make on a normal, low-stress day and if you supplement it blood levels will be detected and the brain will not ask the adrenals to produce any.

Are we perhaps talking about two different things? aiding the production from the adrenals vs. shut down by compensating all of their production?

Shut down is not preferred. There are worries they won't come "online" on their own again after a prolonged period of shut down. People say "adrenals shrivel up after a long period of inactivity" but I've never heard a professional say so. Haven't talked to too many professionals though, mostly users. So I keep room for Ema's approach but you've got to think it through, make sure it's part of a whole that makes sense.

I have never, ever heard of going to 20 mg at once. I have always heard go low, go slow. This is in the worlds of Adrenal Insufficiency, Addison's disease, Hormonal Replacement Therapy in general (HRT) and people taking HC to help with chronic fatigue.

I started it to help with fatigue and was started by an official endocrinologist who loves HRT and he said: "5 mg per day. Do for 2 weeks, see what it does for you."
I got so wired that I stopped! I started again at a later date, when I had my Copper-Zinc in better balance, and then it helped. I was able to rest better.

A few years later I was diagnosed with Adrenal Insufficiency and now I supplement all production which for me comes to 17,5 mg on a very peaceful day inside or to 35 mg per day when outside walking in winter cold and with people. Plus 0,1 mg of Aldosterone (Fludrocortison) for blood pressure. This one is a mineral-corticosteroid. HC is a gluco-corticosteroid.

Yes you can take it on an empty stomach. A (part of a) HC pill takes 45 minutes to be converted into cortisol. I take my waking dose of 5 mg with a sip of salted water when I wake up and then I lie in bed like a zombie for 45 minutes. Then I feel it coursing through my veins and I am well enough to get up. Yes it is a drug. It's steroids you're taking. This really is serious business.


I get worse on adrenal extracts, at first glance. It boosts my system. This is only good when the system can lose the waste products that result from the boost. Otherwise: high up in the curtains, gnawing on the curtain rail.

So the waste elimination processes of your body must be functioning. This involves your bile, your lymph system and last part of the methylation cycle in your cells. (I'm less interested in your poo and pee).
Your bile will only run when your stomach is acid enough (which is governed by cortisol levels). Shortage of bile will result in light coloured poo that floats. Bile is the main waste disposal for hormones, heavy metals and the like.

Lymph system only works with stretching and yawning and with full fats (which are not consumed from intestine wall to liver but from intestine wall directly to lymph system and lymph notes. Interesting huh?)

If the last part of the methylation cycle does not work properly adrenal extracts will result in your cells overflowing with ammonia. Say what?
Yes.
This is what happens to me when I take adrenal extracts. The reason being DNA-mutations that prevent my cells from using vit B12 en vit D and folate acid and progesteron properly. MTR/MTRR; MAO A; VDR Taq; MTHFR C677+1298 and CYP2C 19*17

So you see, it all depends. Yes I've heard of people crashing on adrenal extracts, I'm one of them. But I can explain. And I can circumvent it and then adrenal extracts help me.

For you I suspect extracts will smack your system around too much. Ashwaganda etc. too, avoid.

I found my bottle of HC. It's a generic made by a pharmaceutical company in NZ. There's two problems, though. It's passed it's expiry, which was September 2018 (I don't believe that's necessarily an issue with medications, though?). But humidity can get high in Australian summer; I've kept it in a box in a dark closet in my room, but I live upstairs where it can get hotter ... but do you think it could still be okay to try? I guess the worst is that it just won't be as effective? I could order more, but also feel like my situation is becoming urgent since I'm in a non-stop deterioration, so it would be good to try it sooner than later.

Is HC less likely to stress/crash the system like adrenal extracts, adaptogens etc., even if someone is in a 'frail' state?

What I remember last time from experimenting with 20mg was that it gave me a lot of energy, but I became very 'sick' (flu-like) and brain-fogged. I did feel like there was interdose-withdrawal -- I would feel a dose wearing off -- but my memory's hazy on that. I also remember getting breathing problems before bed, which a small dose (2.5mg) helped, but obviously starting on 20mg was way too high so it seems hard to assess.

I stay away from adaptogens, but there is one herb I have taken consistently since getting sick: Shilajit. It's the only one that I believe raises cortisol, instead of modulating it. It also boosts dopamine, testosterone, improves mitochondrial function etc. I think taking it when I wake up does trigger a slight crash, but it gives me more energy later at night, and my brain does not work without it; I become very mentally impaired and struggle with basic tasks like cooking, watching youtube etc.

I also drink one cup of coffee with coconut oil, to help me fast since I'm on Keto .. and yes, you will frown but it's the only part of my day I actually enjoy And I guess in a way I'm self-medicating for ADHD and low cortisol. And then I take time-release Vitamin C to sleep; it's the only 'safe' supplement I've found which lowers adrenaline enough to let me sleep, and also increases energy a little the next day.

I'm guessing if I try HC, I should stop the Shilajit, since it is a stimulant, but what about the Vitamin C and cup of coffee?

 

[WoolPippi]

Is HC less likely to stress/crash the system like adrenal extracts, adaptogens etc., even if someone is in a 'frail' state?

Yes but in a different way.
adrenal extracts might burn the system because you're basically pouring rocket fuel into a mini scooter.
20 mg of Hydrocortison will put it out of commission because you're dropping a 20 ton anvil on a bunny.

do not take 20 mg of HC

you do not seem to have knowledge of the HPA-axis, the brain-adrenal-stress-system in your body.
you do not seem to appreciate how precarious hormone treatments are being executed in other persons.

You have not thought through what it is to take over HC production from your adrenals. What if Ema is wrong and I am right (and all the doctors and patients I know of) and 15-20 mg stops your adrenals. You will feel good. And then you will feel bad. And then you die. Look up "Addison's crisis". We are talking ER shit.

The stimulants you take, Shilajit and coffee, are kicking your adrenals in the nuts, just to make them produce cortisol.
It reads as if you want HC to do the same for you: just give you energy for today. That's not how it works.

you can take a tiny bit of HC to scaffold your adrenals while you do your healing (meaning no more stimulants, a life style change, teaming up with an ME-doctor). Tiny bit is 2,5-5 mg per day.
It buys you time to do the healing.
Do the healing.

you cannot take more than 5 mg per day HC and continue to live your life as you do, not without medical supervision. You need blood works to monitor your electrolites, hormones and bone density when you take HC. Because it's fucking steroids! It will be eroding your body big time and you need knowledge and caution to take it.

It's a bottle of steroids you have. HC = Hydro-cortisone = cortico-steroids.

 

[outdamnspot]

Yes but in a different way.
adrenal extracts might burn the system because you're basically pouring rocket fuel into a mini scooter.
20 mg of Hydrocortison will put it out of commission because you're dropping a 20 ton anvil on a bunny.

do not take 20 mg of HC

you do not seem to have knowledge of the HPA-axis, the brain-adrenal-stress-system in your body.
you do not seem to appreciate how precarious hormone treatments are being executed in other persons.

You have not thought through what it is to take over HC production from your adrenals. What if Ema is wrong and I am right (and all the doctors and patients I know of) and 15-20 mg stops your adrenals. You will feel good. And then you will feel bad. And then you die. Look up "Addison's crisis". We are talking ER shit.

The stimulants you take, Shilajit and coffee, are kicking your adrenals in the nuts, just to make them produce cortisol.
It reads as if you want HC to do the same for you: just give you energy for today. That's not how it works.

you can take a tiny bit of HC to scaffold your adrenals while you do your healing (meaning no more stimulants, a life style change, teaming up with an ME-doctor). Tiny bit is 2,5-5 mg per day.
It buys you time to do the healing.
Do the healing.

you cannot take more than 5 mg per day HC and continue to live your life as you do, not without medical supervision. You need blood works to monitor your electrolites, hormones and bone density when you take HC. Because it's fucking steroids! It will be eroding your body big time and you need knowledge and caution to take it.

It's a bottle of steroids you have. HC = Hydro-cortisone = cortico-steroids.

I'm not sure why you are getting angry at me. I am well aware of how precarious hormone treatments are, which is why I got scared off after my first attempt and the bottle has sat unused for 2 years, no matter how weak/sick I've become. That's why I'm asking you questions .. the same way I asked Ema when I thought 20mg was the best approach. I trust what you're saying and would never start on a high dose; the reason it seemed to make sense at that time was because of how I would feel like a dose was 'wearing off'. I thought a single dose of HC would give the body cortisol until it wears off (and leave you worse off), but I didn't know that it can help the adrenals produce their own.

I'm not looking at HC as a stimulant. If I was truly reckless, I would have said fuck it and taken 20mg because the last few months of this state have been hell. My body does not seem to have much of a stress response anymore, especially during the hours after I wake; caffeine helps a bit with that, but as I say I restrict myself to a single cup and then spend the entire rest of the day essentially lying down completely isolated. Certain activities, like just standing or going out to an appointment are becoming increasingly difficult or impossible. That's why I have not seen my doctor for months or the gastroenterologist referral for my severe food intolerances hasn't been filled. I have to deal with this awful low-cortisol state on top of being threatened and abused and subjected to endless noise everyday of my life, which isn't exactly conducive to healing; sometimes just hearing a family member's footsteps outside my room will trigger an instant crash. That's why I have learned to run on 'stress': because I have to be vigilant against constant threats. And I am doing my best to 'unlearn' that behavior, by letting go, practicing relaxation, just lying in the dark etc.but it's not exactly easy.

A hospital won't help me; they would probably kill me. A doctor won't help me, because HC isn't used here off-label. So I respect it as a tool that might help me get a little more functional (to at least attend medical appointments) or buffer myself against this emotional hell at home, or even just keep me alive a little bit longer if that's all I can hope for. And you're right, my knowledge is limited and it's difficult to comprehend information in this state, but if I don't do anything, I'm damned. So I do appreciate your help, and that's again why I am asking you these questions before just jumping in. Everyday is a completely panicked state of trying to figure out which food has crashed me, anticipate what's going to happen at home, wondering if I'm going to sleep, will I make it another day etc. and in this state the body/mind does just try to jump to any relief it can find..

 

[outdamnspot]

I guess I'd appreciate any input from other members who are knowledgeable or have experience with HC, e.g. @Hip @Wayne @Learner1 if I am in a crashed state, am I putting myself at more risk by trying 5mg of hydrocortisone? I am barely holding on so considering trying in the next day or two

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

adrenal extracts might burn the system because you're basically pouring rocket fuel into a mini scooter.
20 mg of Hydrocortison will put it out of commission because you're dropping a 20 ton anvil on a bunny.

@WoolPippi
I love your metaphors, in fact your entire writing style, as well as your deep knowledge and willingness to share it. Please keep on wrking with @outdamnspot .... I've dealt with a similar home atmosphere, tho many years ago, and it's absolutely deadly. It kills all rational thought, in fact any thought is virtually impossible, every cell and tissue in your body and brain is focused on day-to-day survival. And that was without ME/CFS.

 

[outdamnspot]

Is licorice also an option or would that be considered an adaptogen?