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Starting Freddd's protocol - a few questions

PatJ

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maybe I can comfort myself with thinking that the methylation process is producing new cells - that's what it uses the extra potassium for, right?

That's what I've read. I don't know how much evidence there is to back up that idea. It's obviously doing something, so let's hope for something good.

By the way, my potassium gluconate powder came today. How do people here tend to take it when they're out and about - dissolve it in a bottle of water?

That would probably work best. Make sure you let anyone with you know to stay away from your water bottle, especially children, otherwise they could get a potassium overdose. You might even want to add a label to the bottle warning others not to drink from it. Some people are very sensitive to potassium.

so fingers crossed that I've found a brand that continues to make a difference.

It's amazing how much difference in effectiveness there is between brands and individuals. Hopefully your sleep will continue to improve.

Maybe I was taking too much folate (800mcg total) for the low B12 dose I was on? I tried taking half that much one day, though, and felt terrible.

Maybe. It's hard to tell with the effect of a single day, especially while your body is undergoing such an adjustment. Cost was the only problem I had with high doses of folate. I've read some people say there is a certain ratio to maintain between B12 and folate, while others just go by what their body needs. I didn't follow a ratio.

I think your B12 dose is probably fine for now. I remember reading posts from Freddd where he recommended that people increase to a few mg of B12 and adB12 and then focus on increasing the folate and trying other recommended supplements.

Here in the UK they are horrendously dark; on top of our higher latitude, it can get cloudy literally for weeks at a time, to the point where you're driving with your headlights on at noon (as now).

Sounds like a Yukon winter in some ways. At the darkest periods the sun rises at around 9:30am and then starts to set at 3:30pm. We have a phrase here about "cabin fever" where some people start to feel quite oppressed in deep winter from the dark and being inside so often. In the summer we have periods where the sun only sets for a couple of hours. It's such a difference between the times of dark and light. Similar in some ways to the difference between bad health and good.
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
@PatJ You live in the Yukon? Wow, it must be beautiful. I think I'd really suffer if I lived that far north though, unfortunately. One winter we went on holiday in Scotland, a place only a few hundred miles north of where we are now, and I still felt the difference; all I wanted to do was cry, sleep and eat chocolate. As it is, I had a really rough night last night and may have to keep taking the melatonin. You would have thought all the SAD lights I used to radiate myself with would have helped at least a bit, but clearly this is a problem beyond their scope.

Several of your comments have made me think about things I've read as I've been browsing threads in this area of the forum. Some people have put a lot of time and effort into compiling condensed lists of info about methylation, particularly Freddd's protocol, but I keep finding important new snippets, or seemingly contradictory statements. Like you, I'm not sure the extra potassium really regenerates cells, though I'd be interested to know what does cause that demand. I'd read somewhere that I should try not to take more folate than B12, but clearly other people do. I refer quite a lot to a PDF I downloaded from here called 'My understanding of Freddd's protocol', with tables and so forth, but that may be a bit dated now. I got the impression that my main focus should be to steadily increase meB12 to 20mg or so, trying to balance the other 3 parts of the 'deadlock quartet' on the way, before trying other things like SAM-e. Actually, the 'step' where you add LCF comes after the titration of the B12s, but as Freddd has said that you can get into a methyl trap if you're not taking it with the B12s and folate, I added it sooner rather than later.

Would you like to share your experience of starting the protocol yourself, and what you're taking now - or have you been writing about that on another thread?
 
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PatJ

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You live in the Yukon? Wow, it must be beautiful.
It's wonderful. Lots of trees, lakes, mountains, animals, hiking and biking trails. And a few trillion mosquitoes in the summer. :)

all I wanted to do was cry, sleep and eat chocolate.

Did the chocolate help you feel better?

As it is, I had a really rough night last night and may have to keep taking the melatonin.

I've discovered that inclining my bed helps my sleep. I started with inclining the head by a couple of inches for a few nights, then a couple more, and now my bed is six inches higher at the head for a roughly 5 degree slope.

I tried it because it's supposed to help increase blood volume and reduce orthostatic intolerance symptoms. It hasn't really helped much in that sense but my sleep is better, in that I don't wake up as often, and when I do I can usually get back to sleep almost immediately. This alone makes it worthwhile, but I've also noticed far less urge to urinate in the early hours of the morning before I get up.

More information can be found by searching here on PR, and at Inclined Bed Therapy.

You would have thought all the SAD lights I used to radiate myself with would have helped at least a bit, but clearly this is a problem beyond their scope.

Are they full-spectum SAD lights? Maybe you have a particular need for some part of the visual spectrum that the lights aren't providing, but that you would get from sunlight.

but I keep finding important new snippets, or seemingly contradictory statements.

Part of that is due to Freddd's shotgun information approach. His posts are littered with gold and gems but they are scattered throughout the forum. Nobody understands the treatment like Freddd. I read thousands of posts about the treatment and kept finding more and more subtlety and detail in Freddd's responses.

I think most contradictory statements arise from people misunderstanding the treatment, with different experiences and results, and differing views of what's going on in the body in response to the supplements. Freddd has also revised the treatment over time.

Ultimately you need to understand the basic effects of the deadlock quartet, know that secondary supplements may be necessary, and rely on adjusting supplement doses based on your individual responses instead of an ideal ratio or target dose.

I'd read somewhere that I should try not to take more folate than B12, but clearly other people do.

I think many do take more MF than B12. I was up to 24mg MF for awhile while taking 5-8mg mb12 and 5-10mg adb12. This is where individual bodily needs make this more of a treatment than a protocol.

I got the impression that my main focus should be to steadily increase meB12 to 20mg or so, trying to balance the other 3 parts of the 'deadlock quartet' on the way, before trying other things like SAM-e.

Sometimes people find that they need one of the support supplements before methylation kicks off but we know that you're reacting to the deadlock quartet so getting it balanced is important before adding other supplements for (hopefully) enhanced effects.

There is a possibility that the DQ will kick off other needs that the additional supplements will fill (which makes things even more complicated) but at the moment I think you're doing fine. If you take more mb12 and notice benefits then that's great, if you don't notice anything, then maybe your body was getting enough on a lower dose. Also, maybe you'll be getting enough at one point but the need will increase or decrease based on your level of healing or momentary demand. Don't expect doses to remain constant.

It would be very nice if this treatment was a simple as taking a single medication and seeing nice, neat results. But instead it requires the development of skills in body management far above what most people have ever dreamed of. It can be overwhelming and annoying at first, but it becomes easier after a month or two.

Would you like to share your experience of starting the protocol yourself, and what you're taking now - or have you been writing about that on another thread?

I've posted quite a lot in this thread. The thread started with a narrow question but widened into several people's experiences with the treatment so it's a useful resource.

Some more references and experiences with Freddd's treatment (from ahmo's tagline):
A guide to Freddd's protocol
Recent Freddd posts on his experiene aka protocol
Stepping into the Freddd methylation protocol
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
Did the chocolate help you feel better?

LOL, did it ever . . . well, sort of. But not just that particular food. Before this past July, I would be eating quite a few rich, sweet foods in a day in order to maintain whatever 'boost' they gave me. I was/am an addict. But we all know what the negative effects of this are, and I can't carry on living like that.

I've heard about an inclined bed helping . . . though I'd need to convince my husband. Still, he has sleep problems too, so maybe it's worth looking into - if we can find a cheap, safe way of raising it a little.

About the SAD lights - yes, they were full spectrum and the right number of lux, from a specialist company in the UK called Lumie. I must have been a favourite customer. I would also spend a lot of time sitting in the sun, when it came out; got rather obsessive, in fact. Eventually I had to face the fact that it would be better to look into what was making me react so strongly to lack of light, rather than trying to drink in as much as I could and not really getting anywhere. That said, I do know never to accept a job that would involve working in a windowless room.

I know what you mean about Freddd's info being scattered about. One particular problem I've been having is that I find a recommendation for a supplement, buy it, don't do so well with it, and discover afterward that there are later posts saying don't use this, use that now. I just experienced this with Jarrow meB12; one day of feeling crappy on it before I switched back to my Solgar, which clearly works better for me. It would help, I think, if there could be a sticky message about recommended supplements in this area of the forum that could be updated.

What you say about methylation supplements sounds very sensible to me. I'm used to trial and error. At the moment I'm wondering what to do next with my supplements without ramping up the meB12 too far too soon. TMG sounds like it might help, so I've got some on order and perhaps will add that next. Not sure where to go with the methylfolate; on 2 divided doses of 400mcg each at the moment, with my 3000mcg meB12 and 1000 adB12. I can't tell what they're doing for me - haven't noticed much of a difference, though I do know I feel worse if I miss a dose.

Thanks for the link to the other threads; will have a read of those.
 
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I just experienced this with Jarrow meB12; one day of feeling crappy on it before I switched back to my Solgar, which clearly works better for me. It would help, I think, if there could be a sticky message about recommended supplements in this area of the forum that could be updated.

Do they have huge differences? I ordered Jarrow's B12 before I read this topic http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/
Then I tought people just experience less effectiveness (using more mg and lozenges to absorb), but as you say, you are experiencing totally different symptoms... I think I need to order b12 again, damn :/
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
Do they have huge differences?

This is just my opinion, and we're all different, but I'm only taking 3,000mcg and I noticed a big difference. I was angry myself, because I'd bought Jarrow in both 1mg and 5mg doses, and they'll be going in the bin. It seems to pay to research here carefully before settling on a brand; I've had to change my B-complex for this reason also.
 
Messages
61
Well, I'll try to use when it arrive. But if give me bad reactions, I won't know if it's because the brand of if methylb12 is not suitable for me.
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
Erm, question about methylfolate. I've been having increasingly niggly problems with mild heart palpitations that aren't resolved by potassium. I had been taking two doses of 400mcg methylfolate a day for maybe two weeks without increasing - my initial starting dose - so thought I might be slipping into a 'paradoxical' deficiency. Decided to add another 400mcg to my morning dose today. Every time I up the dose like this, I feel like I've been clubbed over the head; it's quite a shock to my body. It went away last time, so I'm sure it'll go away this time - but does anyone else have this kind of reaction?

Added in edit Maybe I'm taking too much meB12, too soon, even though I'm still only on a 3,000mcg dose. Heart problems keep bothering me. If all else fails, I guess I'll have to reduce the dose, though it would be disappointing as I feel better on 3,000 than 2,000.
 
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How much potassium are you taking? Some people need 5g, they crave for potassium. I think you need to test, increase your dose till 5g/day, if this doesn't solve your problems, then discard low potassium as a problem.
 

PatJ

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I was/am an addict. But we all know what the negative effects of this are, and I can't carry on living like that.

Cutting down can be difficult. Dropping by small increments each day can give your body and mind a chance to adapt slowly. One substitute for chocolate that I've seen mentioned is an almond placed inside a date and chewed slowly. It's not the same as chocolate but may be enough of a substitute to head off a craving.

I've heard about an inclined bed helping . . . though I'd need to convince my husband. Still, he has sleep problems too, so maybe it's worth looking into - if we can find a cheap, safe way of raising it a little.

I'm using bricks and bits of 2x4's. I noticed a difference in sleep just at 2", but 6" (or whatever gives a 5 degree slope in the bed) is considered ideal according to feedback on various web sites.

Eventually I had to face the fact that it would be better to look into what was making me react so strongly to lack of light, rather than trying to drink in as much as I could and not really getting anywhere.

Do you know if you have a genetic defect(s) that may impair vitamin-D utilization in your body?

I think, if there could be a sticky message about recommended supplements in this area of the forum that could be updated.

A sticky would be useful. Last year the following was valid (numbers indicate order of preference):
MB12: 1) Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion, consistent and top quality. 2) Country Life 3) Solgar

adb12: 1) Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex 2) Source Naturals

Methlyfolate: Anything "Metafolin" should have the same quality since it's a licensed product with specific quality control requirements. Solgar Metafolin is popular. Quatrefolic should be fine as well.

LCF: Anything that uses LCF made by Sigma Tau. Doctor's Best is popular. Jarrow's liquid carnitine is also a recommended alternative when small doses are necessary.

For the additional supplements Freddd recommended the Nature Made B-Complex because it was low dose, and when other supplements were discussed they didn't have the same narrow quality requirements as the deadlock quartet.

I can't tell what they're doing for me - haven't noticed much of a difference, though I do know I feel worse if I miss a dose.

Think of a water bucket being slowly filled drop by drop. It takes time. You may not notice the water level has risen until you've spent some time away for awhile and then come back to look.

That you feel worse when you miss a dose is probably a good sign that your body is using those supplements and wants them back.
 

PatJ

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Every time I up the dose like this, I feel like I've been clubbed over the head; it's quite a shock to my body. It went away last time, so I'm sure it'll go away this time - but does anyone else have this kind of reaction?

I've never had that reaction. I was up to 8 grams within a week or two. Whenever folate deficiency symptoms hit I would increase the folate and they would subside. You could try increasing at a slower rate to hopefully reduce the club effect. Do you take any other supplements at the same time as the methylfolate? Maybe there's an interaction.

A new post about your heart palpitations should get some responses from people who aren't reading this thread.
 
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ah, Kitsune, too much potassium also can be a problem, this is why I suggest you to do not exceed 5g/day. This is tricky, because too much potassium can cause heart arrhytmias, as low potassium.
 

PatJ

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Location
Canada
too much potassium also can be a problem, this is why I suggest you to do not exceed 5g/day.

It isn't based on a set figure like 5g per day. Each person has specific needs at a particular time. One person will get hyperkalemia heart palpitations from an extra 500mg while another can take 3.5 grams and not get any heart palpitations.

On Freddd's treatment the potassium demand varies significantly based on person, where that person is in the treatment (starting, ongoing, stopping), whether extra b-vitamins are increasing potassium demand, and possibly other factors.

Some people have needed to exceed 5g/day because they were taking too much B1, B2, or B3. It's what their body needed to avoid hypokalemia. It's good advice to avoid too much potassium but "too much" depends on individual need, especially on Freddd's treatment.
 
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So, based on what you said, this is much trickier than I tought. Arrhythmias occur on hyper and hypokalemia, so, if someone is feeling only this symptom, it's complicated to know if the body needs more or less potassium.

Until my supplements arrive, i'm using a b12 liquid containing both hydrob12 and mb12. I had bad symptoms, but yesterday I started to use potassium. Splitted 1.5g during the day and this helped me a lot, now I'm just feeling the good side of b12. However, today I had constipation and my poop consistency was like a concrete (lol). Weird, because this is a potassium deficiency symptom, and this appeared just in the next day I started to use potassium. Very weird.

I have a question: why I need to take potassium away from b12?
 

PatJ

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It can take some time to recognize your personal high and low potassium symptoms. If you feel worse when you take more potassium, and your "low" potassium symptoms actually increase, then you've probably taken too much.

I don't know why b12 should be taken away from potassium. Methylfolate needs to be taken at least 45 minutes apart from potassium to avoid blocking methylfolate absorption.
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
@PatJ Thanks as always for your ideas and all the info. I can't respond in detail to everything, but it's very useful, and I think this thread will be a helpful one for me to refer back to in future.

My palpitations are gone now. I don't know why, other than maybe it could be because of the little extra folate I'm taking, and a small increase in my meB12. I always seem to do a bit better with each increase, which gives me hope that this protocol will work for me.

It also helped me to quit the LCF completely. I know that Freddd says it's crucial, which is why I was jittery about doing it, but it turned out to be the right thing for me. My need for potassium supplementation stopped instantly - I don't have to take any at all now. And I feel a bit better, too; less anxious, more myself. I already have a long record of trying amino acids, thinking this one or that is bound to help, only to find it doesn't.

I've got some SAMe and TMG to try, but am taking everything a bit at a time so that I can monitor my symptoms, not risk giving myself bad days when I've got important things on, and focus on what I feel is important (priorities at the moment are working on steady increases in Lauricidin and meB12).

Re. vitamin D - All I know is that I was OK where I lived in the middle of the US. Don't do so well in the UK's dismal winters. I think that's fairly normal for a lot of people, though; we need sunlight for serotonin, vitamin D and thyroid hormone production, and probably a lot of other things. The CFS was sudden-onset for me, and it was only then that the SAD really shifted into gear and I got sleep problems. I think hormonal imbalances are probably at work there, though hopefully the methylation protocol and Lauricidin will help to start normalising those. (I've already gone the route of trying to supplement various hormones, even with the assistance of private tests - it didn't help.)

Re. sweets - I figure my sweet tooth is genetic, but there's a big psychological element too. I'm enjoying a lot of benefits from eating healthily for several months, and don't get cravings when everything is going well. Unfortunately when my system is stressed, I do crave, but I remind myself regularly that the worst time to have a 'treat' is when I crave it, because that will likely be a ticket back into addiction. I therefore end up asking myself why I should have a 'treat' when I don't actually want it, which is logical enough :) At the moment I'm learning how to be a shameless 'foodie' who loves to cook, while eating a healthy diet and not overeating. I'm doing well, though the SAD cravings do creep up sometimes at this time of year. This probably isn't the best solution, but I've discovered some great-tasting sucralose-based 'sweets' to suck on that don't seem to cause my body problems, so I'm thinking they might help once in a while when I do get cravings (though I know they are actually bad for you, and best avoided).
 
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PatJ

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It also helped me to quit the LCF completely. I know that Freddd says it's crucial, which is why I was jittery about doing it, but it turned out to be the right thing for me. My need for potassium supplementation stopped instantly

Options to consider include: trying Acetly-l-carnitine to see what effect it has. Or try a much lower dose of LCF. Anxiety is a sign that your dose was too high. Freddd has said that a person can take enough LCF so the dose is just under the anxiety threshold but it will still be effective.

It's very nice that potassium demand stopped immediately.

I therefore end up asking myself why I should have a 'treat' when I don't actually want it, which is logical enough

I used to have very intense sugar cravings. I would put up one mental block after another but another part of my mind would always circumvent them. The final sneaky work-around was that my craving would suddenly disappear, then some part of my mind would whisper: "There, the craving is gone. Now you can eat something sugary and you won't be giving in, will you?" Next thing I knew I was eating chocolate, or a cookie, or ice-cream. Bodies and minds are a conniving pair sometimes. :)
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
Top issue of today, for me, is that the methylation supplements seem to be having zero effect on my most troublesome symptoms.

-- Still as fatigued as ever when exercising, and recovery time has not improved.
-- Female hormones are as unbalanced as ever.
-- No improvement whatsoever in circadian rhythm/sleep problems.

I reckon I've been doing this for about a month; currently on 5,000mcg meB12 a day, plus 1,000mcg adB12 (have not noticed any difference from taking this), 1,600mcg methylfolate, plus my other usual cofactors, vitamins, herbs, etc. I know that it would be unreasonable to expect massive improvements during that time, but surely there should be some by now, if this were going to help me?
 

PatJ

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I know that it would be unreasonable to expect massive improvements during that time, but surely there should be some by now, if this were going to help me?

I would give it at least three months. The treatment helped my sleep improve noticeably, but not significantly. It took at least a month or two to notice that I no longer felt tired-and-wired (just tired). Different improvements happened at different stages. My overall energy level didn't improve much at all.

I think Freddd's treatment was helpful for me, and worthwhile, but I didn't have the almost magic improvements that some other people have had.
 

Kitsune

Senior Member
Messages
136
I suppose it would be silly for me to give up so early. I would like to try adding TMG next, which seems to have helped quite a few people here. Part of the frustration for me over the past couple of weeks is that I've had job interviews, and I haven't wanted to risk giving myself a bad day by altering my supplements too much, so I haven't been able to push things forward like I've wanted. It will all be over with one way or another tomorrow at least, thank goodness.