No love of B2 here - a warning about riboflavin

[snowman]

So my evolving understanding is this: R5P=R5'P=FMN = (CAS 146-17-8). FMN and FAD are the activated coenzyme forms of b2 and have an incredible number of functions if looking into flavoproteins. FMN can be converted to FAD or to riboflavin.

R5P Sodium Salt (CAS 130-40-5) is not the same as R5P, but both are used as food colorings, and R5PSS quickly turns to riboflavin, so the SS is not what we're looking for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavin_mononucleotide. It looks like all the R5P supplements we're looking at are indeed R5P/FMN and not the R5PSS. The type in many foods looks like R5PSS http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB4472478_EN.htm.

 

[Critterina]

Thanks, @snowman , for clarifying that! The single quote (said 'prime' in chemistry circles) is part of the chemical notation, often omitted by non-chemists. Speaking of which, I looked up the chemical structures of FMN and R5P and found them to be identical, in spite of the testimonies here that state that people get different reactions to the two.

I was curious about the comment that the sodium salt turns to FREE riboflavin after ingestion. I looked at the wiki article and it had no citation for that claim; in fact the whole article was marked as needing citations for substantiation. I have a hard time imagining why the sodium salt, once it disassociates in solution upon ingestion, becomes free riboflavin, and R5P (upon ingestion, which would make it a lot like the disassociated salt) does not. Makes no sense to me! Anyone here able to explain the mechanism? It would be much appreciated!

 

[snowman]

@Critterina , wiki may be wrong on that. I was using it for seeking ways to explain @ahmo's different reactions to R5P vs FMN, but I think her R5P was actually a bottle of riboflavin and not R5P, and hence the different reaction.

I'm curious as to why some do well on FMN but not on riboflavin, and also not on FMN if also taking riboflavin. Is riboflavin like folic acid, where unmetabolized it's not good, and maybe some people have trouble converting it to FMN either through some problem with the enzyme or with not having enough ATP available to do so efficiently?

While typing this I'm also chuckling at myself since the last time I had any chem was high school, and then I couldn't even read a graduated cylinder accurately! So, if all the wording in my question sounds like nonsense, it probably is, and if it comes across as asking a sensible question, well, there's a miracle.

 

[ahmo]

I was using it for seeking ways to explain @ahmo's different reactions to R5P vs FMN, but I think her R5P was actually a bottle of riboflavin and not R5P, and hence the different reaction.

Correct.

 

[Critterina]

@Critterina , wiki may be wrong on that. I was using it for seeking ways to explain @ahmo's different reactions to R5P vs FMN, but I think her R5P was actually a bottle of riboflavin and not R5P, and hence the different reaction.

Thank you! I got a note from @ahmo to that effect, and now I know where it belongs. This totally clears up the confusion for me.
I admit to having had college "chemistry on steroids" (honors freshman chem at Michigan State), then a year of organic and a year of biochem. Still, that was about 35 years ago, and these days I have to go look up even the simple stuff (what's an alkyne? what's an aldehyde? - no, don't answer: I'll only remember if I go look them up).

 

[trails]

@Freddd @Kimsie @aaron_c @ahmo

So, I'm hoping one of you can answer a couple questions for me regarding B2.

My latest blood work shows B2 at the lowest range of normal (6.00 nmol/L).

Interestingly, my B6 level is in the top 1/3 of normal. B1 is normal. B12 is high normal and Folic Acid is above normal (19.6 ng/ml).

I want to start supplementing B2...what form do you think might be best? Any other clues you might be able to provide me with regard to the very high Folic Acid would be appreciated. Also, can't help but wonder why only B2 is low when the other Bs are normal or high.

Thank you!

 

[ahmo]

@trails Freddd and Kimsie haven't been around recently, not sure about aaron. And I know about what's worked for me, but my brain doesn't retain a lot of scientific information. @Gondwanaland and @picante have gone way down the rabbit hole of vitamins.

I don't know what to make of lab results. I know that my lab results typically have not been a good indicator of what's going on, what I needed. I had fantastic results from the coenzymated form of B2, FMN. See my signature for a blog post I wrote. Clearly B12 lab results do not correlate to physiological reality. I'm not sure whether it's the same for folate.

Have you looked into the basics of methylation? There's a good Methylation for Dummies in my signature, also several resources for Freddd's Protocol. A Guide to Freddd's Protocol has a compilation of quotes from Fred, the others simplified instructions for proceeding.

 

[Violeta]

@trails , have you read the B2 I Love You thread? It explains that B2 enzymes are necessary for use of B6, B12 and I believe folate, too. If you are low in B2 the other B2 won't be used correctly and you can end up with high levels of them in your bloodstream.

I have had good results with NOW B2, 100mg each capsule, but I had to break them down to take small amounts throughout the day. I recently bought coenzymated B2 sublingual, and it tastes nasty, I was trying to overlook the extra ingredients, but I'm going to try something else next time. I think someone said that Douglas Labs makes a clean coenzymated B2.

 

[Lynn]

I feel like a chemistry experiment.

I am doing high dose thiamine (1500 mg/day). Recently I added the FMN sublingual once per day because the high dose thiamine causes histamine issues. It definitely helped. Unfortunately now I am experienceing joint pains and muscle cramping. I guess that is a potassium issue. Does anyone know how much potassium I should add to the mix?

I have not tried the methylation protocol because I cannot get my brain to work well enough to understand it and what to take.

Any advice is very appreciated.

Lynn

 

[Gondwanaland]

My latest blood work shows B2 at the lowest range of normal (6.00 nmol/L).

Interestingly, my B6 level is in the top 1/3 of normal. B1 is normal. B12 is high normal and Folic Acid is above normal (19.6 ng/ml).

It makes sense if you think that the B vits are kept at a healthy level at expense of B2 - like @Violeta said, it is well explained in the B2 I love you thread. I think that to normalize Folic Acid you might need some supplemental B2 + choline as a methyl donor. See a chart at the link in my sig "uric acid" (no choline shown) and you will see how B2 activates folic acid.

Go slow with B2 - I don't take more than 5mg daily because I am hypothyroid (thyroid hormone is used to activate B2). I haven't tried the activated forms yet (they aren't available in my country).

Methylation apart, don't forget that B2 is used to build RBCs, so be sure to have enough iron and copper (vitamin A transports iron).

I have not tried the methylation protocol because I cannot get my brain to work well enough to understand it and what to take.

Sorry I can't advise you on potassium supplementation since I personally don't tolerate it.

But there are several ways you can activate methylation and B2 is one of them, choline also helps.

If you guys tolerate eggs, eat at least 2 daily with runny yolks - they contain choline and vit A (and many other things that the liver loves).

 

[trails]

@ahmo @Violeta @Gondwanaland

Thank you all for replying! That the other B vitamins might be at normal or even elevated levels as a result of a deficiency in B2 is exactly the explanation I needed.

Gondwanaland - I also appreciated the info regarding normalizing folic acid via choline. Unfortunately, I recently tried supplementing lecithin powder and it seemed to diminish some of the improvements I've seen lately with brain fog. It sounds like I should give it a another try.

I would love for the B2 to build some RBCs as both those AND my WBCs are tanking right now. I've got a doctor currently evaluating my copper levels, so we'll see how that goes.

Again, thank you for the information!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@trails I never took lecithin, so I wouldn't know about that. I chose the nutrition route rather than supplementing with choline. My husband saw remarkable benefits from eating 2 eggs daily (sciatica and lower back inflammation gone). I am expecting to see his high ferritin lower in his next blood tests (next year) too, and remmission of NAFLD.

RBCs as both those AND my WBCs are tanking right now

My RBCand WBC count went up last year just by taking glutamine (1g daily for about 2 weeks only). You might be glutamine deficient. Glutamine is a tricky supplement though, you can get too much of it too soon (glutamate excitotoxicity). Right now I take about 50 mg only every other day to help to patch the holes in my gut.

EDIT -- you need enough iron and copper for glutamine to work - this year I took it while supplementing with zinc and got ANEMIA for not having enough copper (still WBC count went up)

 

[Little Bluestem]

don't forget that B2 is used to build RBCs, so be sure to have enough iron and copper

It is generally advised not to take supplemental iron unless you know that you are low. Too much iron is bad for you.

If you are deficient in B2, you may have been storing the iron that you cannot use in your liver. If so, once you take more B2 it will be released. Not wanting to release too much iron too fast is one reason for starting the B2 slowly. It might work best to start the B2, then have your iron tested.

Are you supplementing B12? You need a lot of that to make red blood cells too.

 

[Gondwanaland]

It is generally advised not to take supplemental iron unless you know that you are low. Too much iron is bad for you.

If you are deficient in B2, you may have been storing the iron that you cannot use in your liver. If so, once you take more B2 it will be released. Not wanting to release too much iron too fast is one reason for starting the B2 slowly. It might work best to start the B2, then have your iron tested.

Are you supplementing B12? You need a lot of that to make red blood cells too.

I should clarify that I am not promoting iron or copper supplementation, but if one is iron or copper deficient, the outcome of taking B2 will be detrimental.

 

[trails]

EDIT -- you need enough iron and copper for glutamine to work - this year I took it while supplementing with zinc and got ANEMIA for not having enough copper (still WBC count went up)

I should clarify that I am not promoting iron or copper supplementation, but if one is iron or copper deficient, the outcome of taking B2 will be detrimental.

Thank you again. As I indicated in a previous thread, the doctor is doing a ton of copper tests on me right now so it sounds like I should probably wait for those results before supplementing B2 or glutamine.

I should clarify that I am not promoting iron or copper supplementation, but if one is iron or copper deficient, the outcome of taking B2 will be detrimental.

@Gondwanaland, if I were deficient in copper, what do you suppose would be the detrimental effects of supplementing B2?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland, if I were deficient in copper, what do you suppose would be the detrimental effects of supplementing B2?

Anemia
EDIT - and possibly MCS

 

[Gondwanaland]

If you guys tolerate eggs, eat at least 2 daily with runny yolks - they contain choline and vit A (and many other things that the liver loves).

I must revise this, because egg yolks contain a phosphoprotein called phosvitin, which binds nad inactivates dietary iron (and calcium). And I should add that I am supplementing iron. I think that being +/+ for 3 SNPs on the Transferrin gene makes me more susceptible to iron antagonists such as phosvitin, oxalates and zinc.

 

[Kathevans]

I think that being +/+ for 3 SNPs on the Transferrin

What are these genes and were they part of 23andme? Just wondering when you first mentioned them the other day.

Also as to eggs--and I did mention this somewhere else--I've read recently that raw egg whites, as well as boiled have avidin in them, which prevents biotin absorption. After eating two eggs a day for years, I've got a biotin deficiency.

 

[Gondwanaland]

What are these genes and were they part of 23andme?

Yes, the gene is TF. I looked it up on my promethease report because in the few occasions my transferrin has been tested in my life it turned out low. So in the iron metabolism, whenever I ingested a food or supp that is an iron synergist of antagonist, my TF gets deficient.

I've read recently that raw egg whites, as well as boiled have avidin in them, which prevents biotin absorption.

I have known that for some time, and thought that this was my problem with egg, until I found out about phosvitin a couple of days ago This protein acts just like oxalates towards both iron and calcium

 

[alicec]

as well as boiled have avidin in them

Are you sure about that? Every study that I have seen shows that avidin is inactivated by heat.