Is Molybdenum necessary for methylation?

[outdamnspot]

Thanks for your help. I am still trying to decide what to do, and having a lot of difficulty. The problem for me is that my baseline state involves severe anxiety and nervous system overactivation; combined with the frequent crashes, it makes me very scatterbrained and it ends up almost impossible to stay objective about supplement reactions or what's going on with my body, really .. and then I just give up quickly.

So far, I have tried Methyl-B12 on its own. I started with 500mcg and would crash -- it's hard to know if the symptoms are linked to the crash, but I also noticed some neurological worsening (balance problems, mainly, and pain in one of my arms .. plus other symptoms like a 'cold burning' [not painful] in my chest, that disappeared). Out of frustration, I have tried 10mg (split in two doses) the past 2 days and the crash is no worse than on 500mcg. The benefits are a clearer sense of perception (colors brightened etc.), and my mind feeling a little 'smoother' and less toxic.

I also added in B-Right today, which contains Methylfolate, and triggered a crash.

I guess the general questions I had for whoever might feel qualified to answer are:

1. Is crashing on the Methyl-B12 not necessarily a bad sign? If it's only been 5 days, should I possibly keep going or is this a sign it's too much at the moment?

2. Do I have to avoid folate-containing stuff like spinach and Kale? I tend to juice both daily in smoothies.

3. If I am getting a small amount of Methylfolate in the B-complex (400mcg), am I setting myself up for a paradoxical deficiency?

4. If I am crashing on Methyl-B12 and continue to crash, is AdB12 better tolerated?

I have also ordered the active B2 and B12 oils.

 

[outdamnspot]

Yes in biochemistry - spent all my working life in medical research.

alice, do you believe in the folate paradoxical deficiency, as outlined by Freddd, i.e. can introducing low doses of folate just make things worse?

 

[alicec]

alice, do you believe in the folate paradoxical deficiency, as outlined by Freddd, i.e. can introducing low doses of folate just make things worse?

Yes, getting B12 pathways working can increase need for folate. Some of the unpleasant symptoms that arise are simply due to insufficient folate. People often think that the folate is causing problems and reduce dose, but actually they need more.

The phenomenon seems to be related to refeeding syndrome.

Greg from B12 oils would say that ongoing need for large amounts of folate reflects a problem with making active B2 since this is needed by the MTHFR enzyme to recycle folate. This seems to be a fair claim though in my own case, while attention to all the things needed to make active B2 has enabled me to reduce my folate intake considerably, I still seem to need a relatively high dose. Something else is going on but I don't know what.

 

[outdamnspot]

Yes, getting B12 pathways working can increase need for folate. Some of the unpleasant symptoms that arise are simply due to insufficient folate. People often think that the folate is causing problems and reduce dose, but actually they need more.

The phenomenon seems to be related to refeeding syndrome.

Greg from B12 oils would say that ongoing need for large amounts of folate reflects a problem with making active B2 since this is needed by the MTHFR enzyme to recycle folate. This seems to be a fair claim though in my own case, while attention to all the things needed to make active B2 has enabled me to reduce my folate intake considerably, I still seem to need a relatively high dose. Something else is going on but I don't know what.

Which symptoms do you think are linked to the need for folate? Would getting some active B2 in an activated B-complex help towards this issue, or would additional B2 need to be taken separately?

 

[outdamnspot]

@alicec I realize you can't tell me what to do, but if I am taking just the activated B-Complex + Methyl-B12 (2-3mg) and crashing but it's only been about a week, should I possibly just persist? Try adding in low doses of M-Folate? I've realized crashing might be unavoidable on certain treatments, but it's hard to know if it's making me worse/I'm doing something wrong, or just to be expected initially. Are there certain signs I can look out for that indicate a 'healing reaction' vs. something going wrong?

The biggest problems for me since starting have been worsened POTS/dizziness, balance issues and hunger. I am staying on top of electrolytes.

 

[alicec]

Which symptoms do you think are linked to the need for folate?

Here is a post from Freddd where he details the kinds of problems which might arise. Note that group 2 refers to potassium and folate.

Because of individual sensitivities and responses, much trial and error is needed to work out what to do next.

A basic B complex in a lowish dose is a reasonable way to start for supplying the background B vitamins but to work out folate need you would probably be better off trialling this separately. It can vary widely.

I wouldn't fuss too much about B2 in the beginning - just supply some. The first thing is working out your response to B12 and folate. If you later find you need large amounts of folate, then you can start thinking about the things that Greg has talked about in order to help production of active B2, which should help to reduce the folate need.

Here is a post about trying B12 and folate, which I wrote for a sensitive person.

 

[outdamnspot]

Here is a post from Freddd where he details the kinds of problems which might arise. Note that group 2 refers to potassium and folate.

Because of individual sensitivities and responses, much trial and error is needed to work out what to do next.

A basic B complex in a lowish dose is a reasonable way to start for supplying the background B vitamins but to work out folate need you would probably be better off trialling this separately. It can vary widely.

I wouldn't fuss too much about B2 in the beginning - just supply some. The first thing is working out your response to B12 and folate. If you later find you need large amounts of folate, then you can start thinking about the things that Greg has talked about in order to help production of active B2, which should help to reduce the folate need.

Here is a post about trying B12 and folate, which I wrote for a sensitive person.

I have read the Folate deficiency symptoms and don't really relate to them, aside from just feeling 'crappier' overall, i.e. I don't notice the mouth sores, IBS etc.

Do you think Folate should not be started before B12? My doctor's original advice was to start with Methylfolate (200mcg, then raise each week); I asked her if this could lead to methyl-trapping if I wasn't taking B12, but she didn't know what I was referring to.

It's obvious the B-Complex plus higher-dose B12 isn't working for me .. the crashes are just unbearable, so I may start a low-dose B12 and low-dose folate together. If that doesn't work, I will take a break and try Greg's approach.

 

[alicec]

I have read the Folate deficiency symptoms and don't really relate to them, aside from just feeling 'crappier' overall, i.e. I don't notice the mouth sores, IBS etc.

You wouldn't expect to get all of them. I don't get mouth sores etc - more general malaise and achiness.

I would start the B12 and folate at the same time.

 

[outdamnspot]

You wouldn't expect to get all of them. I don't get mouth sores etc - more general malaise and achiness.

I would start the B12 and folate at the same time.

I was having some problems last night (shallow breathing, fogginess) and did find that 400mcg of Methylfolate alleviated them pretty quickly.

So I can start the B12 and folate together and leave the other B's out for now (since the B-complex contains 400mcg of folate)? Is there a ratio I should try to keep the B12 and folate in?

I wonder if starting up methylation is chelating heavy metals -- my doctor thinks I have a high copper burden. I don't know if it's valid or not, but some people have mentioned their stools turning copper-colored when chelating copper, and I've noticed that happening. I thought it might also account for the worsening balance problems.

 

[alicec]

So I can start the B12 and folate together and leave the other B's out for now (since the B-complex contains 400mcg of folate)? Is there a ratio I should try to keep the B12 and folate in?

Well you already know that you can cope with 400 mcg folate so it could be ok to continue the b complex, you just may need to add more folate.

There is no ratio, you need to work out your own response to B12 and folate.

 

[outdamnspot]

Well you already know that you can cope with 400 mcg folate so it could be ok to continue the b complex, you just may need to add more folate.

There is no ratio, you need to work out your own response to B12 and folate.

Hi alice, I was just wondering what your opinion was on this? http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...moter-of-growth-for-bacteria-and-fungi.22726/

I have noticed worsening fungal symptoms since starting the methyl-folate (currently taking 2mg B12 and 200mcg Methylfolate both sublingually), but believed the symptoms were 'die-off'. They tend to manifest as dandruff-like flaking on my forehead, nose, in my hair, hands etc.

 

[alicec]

your opinion was on this

So some microorganisms use folate as a growth factor - so what.

Why single out fungi as a problem - almost everything in the list of the linked article are bacteria.

Does this mean we should eliminate all the numerous substances that act as growth factors for microorganisms from our diet, even if they are essential nutrients for us?

Many gut bacteria themselves produce folate - is it proposed we try to eliminate them?

Why do you think your symptoms are necessarily due to fungi?

 

[Gondwanaland]

They tend to manifest as dandruff-like flaking on my forehead, nose, in my hair, hands etc.

Excess sebum can be due to low B6 and/or Biotin for instance

 

[alicec]

Much of what Greg says is correct - eventually we should be able to make the active vitamins ourselves, but empirically, the SL FMN has seemed like a good stop gap to me. It was definitely different from riboflavin.

I haven't yet done the experiment of going back to riboflavin though I intend to do this soon.

I was prompted to try this experiment over the past week or so and can report that, for me at least, there is still a most definite difference between sublingual FMN and riboflavin.

I should add that I actually didn't discriminate between B2 and B6 for this experiment - ie I was using sublingual FMN and P5P and changed to swallowed riboflavin and pyridoxine. The processing mechanism should be the same for both.

For the first couple of days I didn't notice anything different. Then I slowly went downhill in that insidious way where you don't think anything is particularly wrong until you realise that it has been difficult to get out of and stay out of bed for several days in a row, that brain function is grinding to a halt and motivation has disappeared. In the grip of this inertia it is just too much of an effort to analyse what is going on or change anything - and so it continues.

Within a couple of hours of changing back to the sublingual active vitamins the fog is lifting, I have returned to a small project that I had started fairly enthusiastically but then found I just couldn't make any progress on - in short I am getting back to where I was before I started this particular experiment.

I have found that I respond best to frequent small doses of the active vitamins spread out over the day and what I observed when I started adding them back was that the positive response quickly petered out.

A week on riboflavin and pyridoxine seems to have depleted all my reserves and I was clearly not able to make sufficient active vitamin from these precursors despite supplying an abundance of all the various other cofactors.

As I mentioned previously, there doesn't seem to be much study of what is really going on here. I have found just a few small studies of P5P supplementation suggesting that there is another mechanism of uptake than the classical dephosphorylation/rephosphorylation pathway which Greg refers to and which has been studied in some detail.

 

[outdamnspot]

So some microorganisms use folate as a growth factor - so what.

Why single out fungi as a problem - almost everything in the list of the linked article are bacteria.

Does this mean we should eliminate all the numerous substances that act as growth factors for microorganisms from our diet, even if they are essential nutrients for us?

Many gut bacteria themselves produce folate - is it proposed we try to eliminate them?

Why do you think your symptoms are necessarily due to fungi?

I have quite a lot of fungal rashes -- on my feet, in my groin etc., plus flaking scalp, and frequently see a lot of Candida expelled when I do coffee enemas.

Since starting the B12 and folate together, I have suddenly been hit by strong flu symptoms, with a lot of phlegm, sneezing, coughing etc. I was assuming this is a good sign and most likely a 'healing crisis'. However, Freddd also links these symptoms to paradoxical Folate deficiency, so I am trying to decide what to do next. Is there any way to distinguish between the two reactions? The symptoms are just manageable currently, but I am hesitant to titrate the Folate up rapidly.

I am also thinking of adding in B2 for better folate utilization, though I don't have the active form at the moment.

 

[alicec]

However, Freddd also links these symptoms to paradoxical Folate deficiency, so I am trying to decide what to do next. Is there any way to distinguish between the two reactions? The symptoms are just manageable currently, but I am hesitant to titrate the Folate up rapidly.

Several things you have said suggest you need more folate - including this reaction.

The only way to work this out is to increase folate and see what happens.

 

[outdamnspot]

Several things you have said suggest you need more folate - including this reaction.

The only way to work this out is to increase folate and see what happens.

At this stage, for the sake of simplicity, is it okay to take just the B12 and folate without a B-complex?

Also, should it be okay to add the supps Greg recommends (Selenium and B2) to the Methyl supps?

 

[alicec]

At this stage, for the sake of simplicity, is it okay to take just the B12 and folate without a B-complex?

As I've said previously, taking a few isolated b vitamins is not likely to be a problem in the short term but is likely to be in the longer term. You may find that any positive response to B12 and folate quickly peters out as you deplete other needed B vitamins.

If there is something in the B complex that you think is causing you problems, you may need to try adding the individual B vitamins separately to determine your tolerance.

Also, should it be okay to add the supps Greg recommends (Selenium and B2) to the Methyl supps?

Of course

 

[outdamnspot]

As I've said previously, taking a few isolated b vitamins is not likely to be a problem in the short term but is likely to be in the longer term. You may find that any positive response to B12 and folate quickly peters out as you deplete other needed B vitamins.

If there is something in the B complex that you think is causing you problems, you may need to try adding the individual B vitamins separately to determine your tolerance.

Do you happen to know what might produce headaches and also some parasthesia w/ the Methylfolate? Are these commonly reported start-up reactions? I've upped my Folate to 400mcg and am getting some skull-splitting headaches. I'm staying on top of the potassium.

 

[alicec]

am getting some skull-splitting headaches

That doesn't sound good. Maybe you should back off for a while and revisit later.