B12 increases need for magnesium

[mgk]

I realized just recently that the increased need for magnesium must be what's happening to me too. I knew I had a B12 deficiency so I just assumed all my symptoms were due to that. But I also noticed that some symptoms got worse when taking potassium (which I thought I need lots of since I was taking lots of B12). Must be a fine balance between potassium and magnesium I guess. So it seems like methylation is not working at all because I don't get enough magnesium. After increasing my magnesium intake some symptoms (magnesium deficiency) have improved. But I guess I should go easy on the B12 until all my magnesium deficiency symptoms are gone.

Is it the same for you that methylation seems to stop completely if there is not enough magnesium?

I've also noticed that with more magnesium, I need more potassium. Could it be simply because of the magnesium/potassium balance or is it more likely that with enough magnesium, methylation starts and increases the need for potassium?

Magnesium and potassium are critical, but as @PeterPositive said, there are so many cofactors that you'll have a hard time narrowing down the problem if that's all you're taking.

For many of us, the limiting factors for a long time have been B12 and folate. Once you starting taking more of those, you will experience a deficiency in something else, and what that is will depend on your individual nutritional status. That's why it's such a good idea to start with a good baseline of a B complex without folic acid & cyanocobalamin, multimineral, extra mg & zinc, vitamins A, C, D, E, K, and fish oil.

The idea is to start from as blank of a slate as possible and then add one thing at a time. As you do this, you will get to know what better methylation feels like, and you will be able to tweak more and more to replicate and improve that feeling.

Once you have your blank slate, you start adding in the critical cofactors (called the "deadlock quartet" in other parts of this place): methylb12, adenob12, methylfolate, and l-carnitine fumarate (in my experience, that's a good order). Adding these things will drive the methylation cycle harder and you may need more of the baseline nutrients in order to feel better. Depending on your situation, you may also have to try things like TMG, SAM-e, extra B2, B6, biotin, ...

There's one other point I want to make about potassium. In my experience, adenob12 deficiency can seem like potassium deficiency. If you already have the basics in place and find that taking more potassium doesn't help or makes things worse, try increasing adenob12. Again, a lot of these things are highly individual, but I wanted to mention it as an avenue for you to explore.

I wish there were a simpler answer, but this is the best we have right now. Keep trying and have faith that you will get better. I hope this helps!

 

[Gondwanaland]

There's one other point I want to make about potassium. In my experience, adenob12 deficiency can seem like potassium deficiency. If you already have the basics in place and find that taking more potassium doesn't help or makes things worse, try increasing adenob12. Again, a lot of these things are highly individual, but I wanted to mention it as an avenue for you to explore.

@Sherpa , have you tried this?

 

[Sherpa]

@Gondwanaland yes, this came up yesterday!

I started to feel yucky... took some AdCbl and it helped some, but only after I drank potassium did I feel 100% better.

But I do find myself in a position that feels like Low K where it is AdCbl. Thanks for tagging me.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa Have you been dosing magnesium as well?

 

[Sherpa]

Hmmm... I've been doing Albion Mg Glycinate 4x a day, with each meal, but I think it's only 530mg or so. I have not been rigorous about titrating it.

Perhaps I need more Mg - especially if I am going to try and greatly increase B12 levels with transdermal spray, and maybe time release would be better for more consistent levels.

It's also interesting that Jigsaw SRT magnesium has methylfolate in time release form. Maybe a low dose, consistently delivered, would be better than all the ups and downs of trying to titrate it.

 

[Sherpa]

Is there some kind of ratio that serves as a guideline between supplemental potassium intake and supplemental magnesium intake?

 

[Gondwanaland]

The electrolyte I take contains 3 : 2 : 2 : 1 (K-Na-Ca-Mg). I think you should be careful not to OD with the electrolytes

Titrate carefully and be aware that your needs can suddenly change, maybe even the proportions.

Don't overlook Zn-Cu-Mn.

 

[liverock]

Potassium is not the only mineral that needs to be balanced by magnesium as can be seen on these magnesium wheels showing synergy between Mg and other minerals including calcium,sodium,phosphorous,manganese and iron. Heavy metals cadmium and lead can also antagonize Mg.

The 2nd wheel shows Mg relationship to B vitamins and its interesting to note that excess Mg lowers all the B vits used in methylation B6,B12 and B10(folic acid).

http://www.traceelements.com/docs/Magnesium Wheels.pdf

http://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Magnesium.pdf

 

[Sherpa]

I wish someone would make a slow-release glycinate. At least for me, that would be a huge help.

Hey @mgk - here you go, Swanson time released magnesium glycinate :

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-albion-chelated-trs-magnesium-60-tabs

it has B1... not sure how I feel about that, with the advice to keep Bs in balance and not push B1 too high given by some.

Do you find that the time released makes that much difference rather than just taking 4x a day before meals and bed (my current regime)?

 

[mgk]

Hey @mgk - here you go, Swanson time released magnesium glycinate :

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-albion-chelated-trs-magnesium-60-tabs

it has B1... not sure how I feel about that, with the advice to keep Bs in balance and not push B1 too high given by some.

There is another problem with it: the glycinate is "buffered" which means a portion of it is actually oxide. It's not too expensive though so I might try it after I run out of what I'm using now. Thank you for mentioning it!

Do you find that the time released makes that much difference rather than just taking 4x a day before meals and bed (my current regime)?

I haven't noticed any difference in my symptoms, but then again I was emulating the time-release mechanism by taking 1 pill every 2 hours (2 with meals). I couldn't take more than that without experiencing loose stools. If you can take enough of the glycinate without side effects, I doubt Jigsaw's product would help any further.

You do make a good point about the small amounts of methylfolate, B6 & B12. I don't know how much of a difference that makes. If you're more interested in that aspect, they do also have a slow-release B complex. I haven't used it myself but it looks good: all good forms, plus decent amounts of biotin, choline & inositol, which is unfortunately rare for B complexes.

 

[sregan]

Very timely thread for me. I suspected a mineral deficiency which caused me to put the brakes (not completely) on my current SMP. I had a couple of times taken potassium and Magnesium in the morning on 2 occasions and went back to sleep and felt much better for it. I assumed it was the K but this morning was feeling it was probably more Mg related. I was getting hamstring cramps yesterday which I never get.

A discussion of Methylation cofactors is exactly what I needed and IMO one of the most important things we can explore together.

 

[Sherpa]

I tried transdermal B12 oil (far higher dose than usual) and felt wonderful for about 8 hours. Then I started feeling achey and malaise. I thought it was 'paradoxical B12 insufficency' and took more B12 in lozenge. Not much help. I woke up at midnight twitching and thrashing - feeling awful. I assumed it was Low potassium. I drank potassium. I felt some relief. I woke up feeling hung over. The next day, today, I drank a small ammount of potassium and feel WORSE.

IS there a chance that the B12 increased my need for MAGNESIUM and that magnesium deficiency can show up similar to potassium symptoms?

Has anyone ever got "potassium look alike" twitching, jerking (potassium like) and malaise type symptoms from Mg?

just wondering.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa too much and too little potassium can manifest in the same way. How about folate? Yes, Xdermal MB12 works in strange ways

 

[Sherpa]

@Sherpa too much and too little potassium can manifest in the same way. How about folate? Yes, Xdermal MB12 works in strange ways

Bizarre!

according to Mayo clinic, the symptoms of high potassium are basically the same -

Hyperkalemia is a serious and potentially life-threatening disorder. It can cause:

• Muscle fatigue
• Weakness
• Paralysis
• Abnormal heart rhythms (arrhythmias)
• Nausea

 

[mgk]

IS there a chance that the B12 increased my need for MAGNESIUM and that magnesium deficiency can show up similar to potassium symptoms?

Has anyone ever got "potassium look alike" twitching, jerking (potassium like) and malaise type symptoms from Mg?

In my experience, magnesium deficiency has never presented as twitching. It's usually headache, muscle pain (especially in the neck, lower back, and legs), low energy, calf cramps, and if allowed to go on long enough, constipation.

The twitching reminds me of adb12 deficiency. I have no idea why it presents in this strange way, but invariably so far, taking adb12 has relieved the symptoms within 30 minutes. These days I take about 15mg a day.

 

[j226]

I'm starting to suspect that my methylation startup muscle symptoms could be more from an increased need for magnesium. Although potassium helps it sometimes takes very high doses.

In addition to spasms / cramping I get muscle agitation or hyperexcitability from b12 or mfolate. From what I've read the hyperexcitability sounds more like a magnesium deficiency then potassium. Years ago I had discovered that magnesium stopped muscle twitching, tension, palpitations, insomnia, and anxiety. Currently taking 800mg of magnesium malate, I'm going to see what happens after doubling the dose.

 

[Sherpa]

In my experience, magnesium deficiency has never presented as twitching. It's usually headache, muscle pain (especially in the neck, lower back, and legs), low energy, calf cramps, and if allowed to go on long enough, constipation.

The twitching reminds me of adb12 deficiency. I have no idea why it presents in this strange way, but invariably so far, taking adb12 has relieved the symptoms within 30 minutes. These days I take about 15mg a day.

Hey @mgk, I think you're onto something! It seems twitching can be a side effect of taking stimulating nutrients when MAO A R297R +/+ is not working properly. The suggested way to help normalize MAO A activity is to supplement riboflavin 3x a day for at least 4 weeks.

I think I have been having these and confusing them for "low potassium" - I will defintiely try your suggeston to take more AdB12 next time its happening.

These side effects are for MAO Inhibitors - which is the similar to having your MAO A enzyme production inhibited by a homozygous mutation:

• Hives.
• Chest pains.
• Fast or slow heartbeat.
• Severe headache.
• Stiff neck.
• Nausea or vomiting.

Common side effects of this medicine include:

• Dizziness or lightheadedness.
• High blood pressure.
• Appetite changes or weight gain.
• Loss of sexual desire or ability.
• Muscle twitching during sleep.

another list:

The most common side effects of MAOIs include:

• Dry mouth
• Nausea, diarrhea or constipation
• Headache
• Drowsiness
• Insomnia
• Skin reaction at the patch site
• Dizziness or lightheadedness

Other possible side effects include:

• Involuntary muscle jerks
• Low blood pressure
• Reduced sexual desire or difficulty reaching orgasm
• Sleep disturbances
• Weight gain
• Difficulty starting a urine flow
• Muscle aches
• Prickling or tingling sensation in the skin (paresthesia)

 

[Rand56]

For any of you who need to be on the lookout for any non-drug substances that have MAOI properties, scroll down about halfway down this page to see the list. No doubt you may have to take higher amounts of any of these for this effect, but it's still good to know as far as taking some caution....

http://www.botanical-online.com/english/vegetalmaois.htm

 

[physicsstudent13]

I'm having blurry vision, double vision, severe brain fog, trouble speaking after starting high dose b12 and 4000mcg of methylfolate and tinidazole
I think my potassium was about 3.0-3.5 at the minimum. Maybe I should have taken 15 of these 99mg potassium CVS tablets where one potassium gluconate 595mg is 2% of the RDA?
I have some potassium citrate powder also

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa and @Rand56
I wil rethink all my reactions under the MAO-A perspective

The suggested way to help normalize MAO A activity is to supplement riboflavin 3x a day for at least 4 weeks.

How can that be if B2 increases dopamine and serotonin production? Increased dopamine and serotonin are poison to me