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B12 increases need for magnesium

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by mgk, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    Over the past few months I've found that I'm very sensitive to magnesium intake. If I don't get enough of it, I can tell within a day because certain symptoms start showing up again (headache, neck and shoulder pains, cramps in my calves, low energy, constipation). I've found that I need about 800mg/day in order to feel relatively well.

    Recently I've also been experimenting with B12 because I can identify with many of the deficiency symptoms. I've found that when I take a certain amount of B12 (methylcobalamin), my need for magnesium will nearly double. It actually seems that my magnesium needs are roughly proportional to the amount of B12 I take. It doubles with 1mg, and it's lower with 500mcg, and so on. Has anyone else experienced something like this? I'm wondering what's going on, or if it's something that's expected as a B12 deficiency is alleviated.

    Thank you
     
    SpecialK82 likes this.
  2. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    That's very interesting -- I had a huge new need for magnesium after I started B-12, but at that time had found a lot of other deficiencies for the first time and new thyroid issues, so did not make the connection. It took me quite awhile to get the right amount and type of magnesium.
     
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  3. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl But I Look So Good.

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    I've just started methylation and I'm actually doing really well I think. I'm reading that with more potassium we need magnesium.

    I get 600 mgs/day with my calcium supplement so I'm wondering how much more I would need? I haven't been keeping track of how much potassium, I'm taking, probably around 1000-1500 mgs/day

    I'm not having any cramping and the potassium is really helping my heart palpations.

    What kind do you like @Victronix ? I actually don't mind the kind that may cause diarrhea since I have IBS-C so it might help me in that regard.
     
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  4. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

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    I don't know how this figures with B12, but I read in Life Extension Magazine that in order to maintain your proper magnesium levels, you need to take in 3mgs/lb of body weight and 5 mg/lb to increase.

    GG

    “As a maintenance dosage I recommend 3 mg per pound of body weight,” Dr. Goodman says. “But that’s for maintenance. If you’re stressed out and there is inflammation in your system, you can go up to 5 mg per pound of body weight.”

    http://www.lef.org/Magazine/2014/8/...On-A-Mission-To-Promote-Magnesium/Page-01?p=1
     
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  5. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    I can completely relate to the point about types! I actually stumbled onto magnesium a few years back, but I never made the connection that I was deficient because I started out with a type that did nothing for me. Then something else made me take another look, and I found that the type makes a huge difference. I've been trying to find the most effective one ever since. Here are the types I've tried, in order of least to most effective:

    oxide < citrate < chloride < malate < taurate < glycinate

    By effective, I mean the difference I feel per mg of elemental magnesium. In some cases, the difference from one to the next is an order of magnitude. Oxide does nothing for me for instance. The one I'm using now is Jigsaw's slow-release malate. Even though it's a less effective form, it's a lot easier to take the amount I need because of the slow-release thing. To take enough glycinate, I used to need to set a timer to go off every 2 hours. With the Jigsaw, I just take the amount I need with meals. One thing I don't like about the Jigsaw though is how expensive it is. I emailed iHerb asking if they would carry it with the hope that they'd have a better price, but they haven't responded to me yet.

    I wish someone would make a slow-release glycinate. At least for me, that would be a huge help.
     
  6. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    I've never been diagnosed with IBS-C, but I'd had chronic constipation for years before starting magnesium. In my experience, there are 2 ways that magnesium helps with constipation: 1) it's absorbed well, in which case it normalizes stools, 2) it's not absorbed well, draws water into the intestines, and causes unpleasant diarrhea. The second kind is unpleasant even if you have constipation, though I completely understand the frustration of chronic constipation.

    If you haven't tried glycinate yet, I'd recommend trying that to get an idea of the kind of effect that a good magnesium supplement can have. Then you'll have a better baseline to judge other types from. I wish there were an easy answer, but it seems to be an individual thing. You may also want to check out this thread about different forms to try.
     
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  7. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    Lactate is also a good form of MG.
     
    Mackee likes this.
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    where do you buy it? what brand?
     
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  9. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    Mackee and Gondwanaland like this.
  10. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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  11. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    Thanks for looking into it. The "buffered" label confused me at first too. Someone from longecity asked Albion (the manufacturer of glycinate raw materials) and this is what they had to say:
     
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  12. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Ah... interesting!
    I hate Mag oxide... it makes bubbles in my stomach :D and I was looking forward to try the glycinate form. I recall using a Solgar product which is Mag glycinate + oxide and I had that side effect. I thought only Solgar did that for some (strange) reason (they declare the two forms on the label)

    So basically what you are saying is that all Mag glycinate on the market actually contains some MgO2... Ouch! :rolleyes:

    Would the bisglycinate form be the same?
     
  13. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    No, only the ones that claim to be "buffered" have some oxide in them. For example, note how this one says "not buffered" on it. There are others which aren't so explicit, and you have to infer. For example this one doesn't have oxide either.

    Technically, glycinate isn't the same as bisglycinate. The former is Mg bound to one glycine molecule, the latter is bound to two. But it gets really confusing because many products on the market are actually bisglycinate but are marketed as glycinate since that's the more popular name. I wouldn't worry about it though, they have basically the same efficacy since they go through the same pathways.

    This is starting to get technical so I feel obligated to add a disclaimer here saying that I'm not an expert in biochemistry. This is just what I've gleaned from digging around online.
     
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  14. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Super, thanks!
     
  15. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

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    I'm interested in this topic as well. I have trouble with methylation supplements and am currently going to try and up my magnesium before starting methyl b12 again.

    There is a forum where there is some discussion about this topic, check it out.

    "Cells coming back on during methylation"
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cells-coming-back-on-during-methylation.26862/

    There is a post by @Freddd in that forum where he says "Magnesium can be a limiting factor and deadlock b12" Maybe he can chime in and elaborate on this a little bit.
     
    Mackee likes this.
  16. caledonia

    caledonia

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    After being on methylation for awhile, my magnesium need decreased quite significantly. Getting some potassium on board probably also helped with that, as those two work together and need to be in balance. I think my adrenals have also improved somewhat (I just sent a test in for that, so I should know that for sure soon.) You'll be leaking out electrolytes like crazy if you're adrenals are weak.

    Then after some more time, my magnesium needs have increased again somewhat. I feel like I might be building some muscle - I had lost all muscle tone for years. So maybe the extra mag is being used for some kind of healing process. I know mag is a co-factor to make SAMe, along with folate and B12.
     
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  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I'll say what I know, which isn't much. In research I have seen magnesium being called the "substrate" for b12 activity. As @caledonia mentions it is essential in the formation of SAM-e (the universal methylator). Other b12 literature mentions the difficulty maintaining electrolyte balance and of lack of zinc. I think we all know about electrolyte business from common experience. Magnesium participates in all sorts of reactions. That's about it. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
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  18. mgk

    mgk Senior Member

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    I found this really interesting chart which depicts how magnesium, zinc, and a bunch of other things fit into the methylation cycle.
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. emilagne

    emilagne

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    I realized just recently that the increased need for magnesium must be what's happening to me too. I knew I had a B12 deficiency so I just assumed all my symptoms were due to that. But I also noticed that some symptoms got worse when taking potassium (which I thought I need lots of since I was taking lots of B12). Must be a fine balance between potassium and magnesium I guess. So it seems like methylation is not working at all because I don't get enough magnesium. After increasing my magnesium intake some symptoms (magnesium deficiency) have improved. But I guess I should go easy on the B12 until all my magnesium deficiency symptoms are gone.

    Is it the same for you that methylation seems to stop completely if there is not enough magnesium?

    I've also noticed that with more magnesium, I need more potassium. Could it be simply because of the magnesium/potassium balance or is it more likely that with enough magnesium, methylation starts and increases the need for potassium?
     
  20. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    There are so many cofactors in methylation.
    B2 and B3/NADH are fundamental for proper folate metabolism.
    Then there are minerals such as K, Mg and zinc too, as @mgk pointed out.

    The diagram he posted is pretty exhaustive!
     
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