Yasko Simplified : Lithium with very low B12 ??

[helen1]

Where do you buy yours for $13 @ahmo? Iherb sells it for $23 and the bluebonnet website doesn't seem to sell it or did I miss something?

 

[ahmo]

@helen1 You're correct, i buy from iherb. I must have been thinking of the first brand I used. I've now had to add some more crumbs of folate, for hair loss. So from tomorrow, I'll be using slightly less B12. I've been happy with the equilibrium I had, I don't think more B12 will serve me, and my past experience is that my body would prefer less folate, rather than more. If I had any distinct benefit from the B12, I'd stay with it. Which is to say, it seems this Bluebonnet liquid is a good formulation.

 

[Lynn_M]

Ahmo,
Based on B12 biochemistry, I'm baffled that you're getting excellent results with your B12 drops applied with moisturizer/body crème. B12 is a water soluble compound. Skin is lipid based and not amenable to allowing water soluble compounds to penetrate. Dr. Greg Russell-Jones, the biochemist developer of the B12oils transdermal product, has explained that the reason his product works is because the B12 is nanoparticle size. Because the B12 molecule are so small, he can get it to stay soluble in an oil-base, which gets it through the skin, and then the B12 can be absorbed into the blood stream. It took a tremendous amount of biochemical trickery and research time to find the right base and agents to make his final product. He has researched other B12 crème based commercial products and doesn't see how they could possibly work.

I hope you are continuing to get good absorption and not just benefiting from B12 that was stored in your body previously from using other products.

It would be nice to get meB12 at a lower price. I buy 6 pumps of Me/AdoCbl at a time from B12oils.com, and that costs me $42/pump, including shipping to the US. The new larger pumps last around 2 months. But I know that product is working, because my MMA is around mid-range of reference, and a Bioscan says my B12 level is replete.

 

[ahmo]

@Lynn_M I don't see how this can be stored B12. I used the California Extracts for 30+ days. During that period I used the commercial B12oil a couple times, just to check with body re the equivalence of the 2. Before that I'd used nearly a full pump of oil, starting it in December. As soon as I started with the new drops I developed folate deficiency sx. After a couple days adding extra folate, tomorrow I'm going to decrease the B12 by 5 drops, see how that goes. I'm not doing any pathology tests. I'm going by how I feel day to day, and whatever symptoms arise. I can't find anything else to account for this sudden hair loss.

 

[Gondwanaland]

A lot of water-soluble stuff works wonders Xdermally for me and my husband, including MB12 drops, which actually are highly absorbable.

 

[Ninan]

@Ninan I don't know if this is useful for you, but...I've been using B12 as transdermal oil for nearly 4 months. I'm so relieved to no longer have pink gums all day. I'm not sure if you've been on the transdermal B12 thread...I shared there that afgter using the excellent commercial B12 oil, I experimented with using B12 drops and applying with my moisturizer/body creme. I've had excellent results, at a real cost savings. Just now I've switched to a different brand of drops, as the first one was no longer available. Bluebonnet 5000mcg drops, a full dropperful, mixed into a fingerfull of my body creme, and then rubbed onto my body has been even more effective. I've had to increase my folate by 200mcg, as this new brand caused hair loss. It might be worth a try for you, only about $13 for bottle (2ml?) with 60 doses. BTW, I also use lithium, have been for about 1.5 years, 5-10mg/day.

Thanks for the tip. My problem doesn't seem to be to get B12 into the blood (I had huge amounts last time I checked) but rather to make it go wherever it's supposed to go, into cells, CNS. Not sure that another way of administration would help with that. But it seems like an interesting alternative if I lose access to my B12 shots. Kind of afraid to change my dosage now since the balance seems so fragile.

 

[Ninan]

Ninan,
If your FAD (the active coenzyme form of riboflavin - Vit B2) is low, it will chew up your MeB12, and hence the AdoB12. And I remember Rich saying something about needing glutathione to protect B12. Maybe you need to look at those factors.

Lynn

I take some B2 but just the regular one (Nature Made's complex). Guess it's possible I can't convert it?

What did he mean by protecting B12? Could adding glutathoine help?

BTW I react to my SC methyl B12 shots exactly 50 hours after the injection. @Freddd says it might be because I convert a lot of it into adoB12 and that the energy I feel is mitochondria. I don't notice a thing the hours after the injection like other people seem to do. I wonder if it's even the same thing for me. Gives me great energy and lowers all my symptoms. Basicly turns me from vegetable to well, housebound. But the effect seems to be going. If anyone have any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

 

[pogoman]

I've been following this thread awhile and had ordered some lithium orotate which arrived today.
Took one 5mg capsule before running my errands and doing stuff all day.
Did not notice any mental changes and pain/energy levels par for the course.
After dinner I thought just for S & G I would take a l-lysine capsule and see what happens.
A few years ago while trying different amino acids I had found lysine stopped my muscle pain, gave me energy and lowered my blood pressure to the point I stopped the BP med I was on.
However it lost its effectiveness after a month or so, I occasionally will go back on lysine to see if it works again, its repeated the improvement temporarily once since then.

So about half an hour after taking it, I start getting random itchy crawly feeling all over head and body and my body temp felt noticeably hotter, not like the niacin flush tho.
Never had that happen with lysine, interesting side effects.
Will have to see how sleep pans out tonite.

 

[pogoman]

Well I got interrupted sleep every couple hours but today did not get the morning fatigue when that usually happens.
I seemed to be more focused and driven, was able to get showered, dressed and moving out the door two hours earlier than I usually can do on weekends.
And lysine definitely is working better, had almost no morning pain and a capsule gave me a shot of energy in the late afternoon.

 

[pogoman]

Ok, another update in case someone is looking to do this.
Definitely an improvement in pain reduction, energy and better mental focus.
I have started exercising during most evenings and hopefully will not crash.
Looking at my past labs my serum B12 has been in the 800s the past 3 years before I knew I had C677T yet I still developed myopathy and fatigue.
So hopefully the B12 is now being utilized better.
I am going to try a second 5mg capsule in the late afternoon on workdays to see if energy improves even more.
I have also noticed I don't get food cravings like I did before.

 

[PeterPositive]

I've tried using 2-3mg of liquid lithium chloride and didn't notice any difference.

Now I have switched to 5mg of Li orotate. It's been a week and haven't seen any specific effects. My mood hasn't been particularly good recently, so it's a good time for this test. So far ... nada

 

[pogoman]

I've tried using 2-3mg of liquid lithium chloride and didn't notice any difference.

Now I have switched to 5mg of Li orotate. It's been a week and haven't seen any specific effects. My mood hasn't been particularly good recently, so it's a good time for this test. So far ... nada

if not doing so already, maybe try taking it at the same time with B12.

I am now at 5mg 2 to 3 times a day.
I believe I am sleeping better as I don't need a full 8 to 10 hours anymore.
I think that alone may account for feeling more alert, have not noticed much mental effects.
pain is much better in the mornings also, still get somewhat sore and fatigued after a long day but it takes more to reach that point.

 

[Jormaeth]

Would like to ask for some advice. since June of 2015 I've been on 1200mg of Lithium and 1000 mg of metforman. Never a problem with B12, or not identified by my doctor. I have since switched Drs. In February had 7 heart attacks (had blockages). Fast forward to two months ago. I felt quite lethargic and difficulty with work. Had what felt like massive panic attacks (heart etc). Had a blood test and dr said my b12 was down to aprox 100 and told me to get on 1000mcg per day. At the same time my lithium so levels have been increasing. I've been at 60 for 2 years and things were great. In June my lithium was 90. In August I hit 103. I was starting to get some of my old tendencies back and getting worried about the lithium increasing. So the dr suggested dropping the lithium down to 900mg.

Now this has been almost three weeks. I'm not really feeling much better. I'm wondering if the lithium should be increased to original amount? My dr is great, but with my work schedule it is tough to see her. And she isn't a specialist. Could there be a correlation between the lithium and b12. Is the spike in lithium related to the sudden drop in B12.? The doctor also took away a "pump inhibitor", suggesting that could be the issue.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Methyl90]

It seems to be a contradictory theory, at least according to Fred's in which he says that glutathione will cause the immediate expulsion of B12.

Who helps me understand? thank you

https://seekinghealth.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037777994-Lithium-and-Cellular-B12-Absorption

 

[GlassCannonLife]

@Hip is this the type of thing you meant when you said to look into methylation?

It's all so extreme - do you happen to know, are any of these things proven in studies or are they all clinical experience? Is Amy Yasko a reliable source of information regarding all of this? Has there since been an update to this type of thing or some type of succinct resource about it all that has been proven to be accurate?

I had never heard of Li being important for B12 and folate transport into cells, and people with MTR and MTRR SNPs excreting it more etc..

 

[Hip]

It's all so extreme - do you happen to know, are any of these things proven in studies or are they all clinical experience? Is Amy Yasko a reliable source of information regarding all of this? Has there since been an update to this type of thing or some type of succinct resource about it all that has been proven to be accurate?

Most of what you read about the methylation protocol tends to be on the pseudoscientific side, or just pure speculation, so take it all with a pinch of salt.

The methylation protocol was very popular to investigate methylation as an ME/CFS treatment around 10 years ago, after Rich Van Konynenburg, a retired physicist, had a theory that ME/CFS may be due to insufficient methylation (I think he based this on Amy Yasko's work).

In spite of the often pseudoscientific complexities posted about methylation on this forum, it's actually a simple protocol to try: you just take some B12, active folate (like methylfolate), and some supportive supplements like lecithin. There is a section in my roadmap which provides further details. The last version of this protocol before Rich died was posted here.

Lots of people tried it, but it never panned out as the explanation of ME/CFS. Nevertheless, it still may be worth trying, as it might result in some benefits.


Myself, I find when I take doses of methylfolate (aka L-5-MTHF) higher than 100 mcg, after several days to a week, I get into a state of overmethylation, which is characterized by an agitated overstimulation of the brain, which is somewhat unpleasant (you can counter this overstimulation with niacinamide 500 mg or more).

However, I also find that methylfolate significantly improves my brain fog, and ability to do productive work, once its effects kick in, after about a week. But generally I find the overmethylation state unpleasant; you cannot relax at all with this 24 hour overstimulation feeling.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Most of what you read about the methylation protocol tends to be on the pseudoscientific side, or just pure speculation, so take it all with a pinch of salt.

The methylation protocol was very popular to investigate methylation as an ME/CFS treatment around 10 years ago, after Rich Van Konynenburg, a retired physicist, had a theory that ME/CFS may be due to insufficient methylation (I think he based this on Amy Yasko's work).

In spite of the often pseudoscientific complexities posted about methylation on this forum, it's actually a simple protocol to try: you just take some B12, active folate (like methylfolate), and some supportive supplements like lecithin. There is a section in my roadmap which provides further details. The last version of this protocol before Rich died was posted here.

Lots of people tried it, but it never panned out as the explanation of ME/CFS. Nevertheless, it still may be worth trying, as it might result in some benefits.


Myself, I find when I take doses of methylfolate (aka L-5-MTHF) higher than 100 mcg, after several days to a week, I get into a state of overmethylation, which is characterized by an agitated overstimulation of the brain, which is somewhat unpleasant (you can counter this overstimulation with niacinamide 500 mg or more).

However, I also find that methylfolate significantly improves my brain fog, and ability to do productive work, once its effects kick in, after about a week. But generally I find the overmethylation state unpleasant; you cannot relax at all with this 24 hour overstimulation feeling.

So do you not use methylfolate or the niacinamide anymore? Is there a balance one could use between using enough methylfolate for productivity and using niacinamide alongside it to control the stimulation?

 

[Methyl90]

So do you not use methylfolate or the niacinamide anymore? Is there a balance one could use between using enough methylfolate for productivity and using niacinamide alongside it to control the stimulation?

There is no one-size-fits-all strategy but of course individual based also on experience in recognizing the symptoms ... you can simply take 25-50mg of niacin and / or niacinamide if you feel too "stimulated" by methylfolate or other donors of methyl. Always keep in mind that it can be transient from electrolyte imbalance.

 

[GreenMachineX]

There is no one-size-fits-all strategy but of course individual based also on experience in recognizing the symptoms ... you can simply take 25-50mg of niacin and / or niacinamide if you feel too "stimulated" by methylfolate or other donors of methyl. Always keep in mind that it can be transient from electrolyte imbalance.

50mg niacin doesn't shut down the stimulation though, so I was wondering if there was something different or better with niacinamide. I have a bottle of it here but haven't had the intestinal fortitude to try it yet.

 

[Methyl90]

50mg niacin doesn't shut down the stimulation though, so I was wondering if there was something different or better with niacinamide. I have a bottle of it here but haven't had the intestinal fortitude to try it yet.

see if it can help you:

https://mthfr.net/preventing-methylfolate-side-effects/2014/11/26/