XMRV and Transmission: The Big Question

[Cloud]

Great Information FrouFox....thanks for those links.

You were only 6 months ahead of me with your vaccine series. My first one was in June 1993. No one, including myself, back in 1993 considered the vaccines were what made me sick. It took me many years to figure out what illness I even had, much less the triggers. I put the vaccine idea together just a few years ago (12 years ill). A few years back, I did call some vaccine illness reporting agency that has a branch for compensation....I called and realized that the bureaucracy was going to be more than I could handle. This was especially true in light of the fact that I had a slim chance of compensation because of the time lapse, and proving the illness resulted from the vaccine. How would one ever prove that? Besides, I don't care all that much about compensation.....I just wanna get well.


It really makes me sad to realize how many well intentioned people became ill from vaccines. I'm really struggling with what to tell my 12 year old granddaughter about the h1n1 vaccine. No way will I get it.....I would rather face my opponent head on and obviously, the risk is too great for me anyhow. But, she is high risk for not only catching it, but also for being hit hard if she does, God forbid. I have decided that what I will do is screen the adjuncts in the particular vaccines that come our way. If it lacks thermasol and squalene I will say go for it. But also, if she hasn't been ill for months, and she only gets one shot and then waits at least a month on the other. I am really concerned for her either way. They look to me for this advice. Tough call.

 

[Cloud]

Thanks Kim.....Day one with Dr Peterson he asked me what I thought had triggered my CFS.....I said HepB Vaccine and stress. After all my initial testing he comes in and says....there is hope for you! I almost started crying.....Maybe I did, not sure because I was so very ill. Anyhow, he was referring to Anti-viral treatment with Vistide. So, even if the Virus' are result of my immune system losing the upper hand after the vaccine, he still feels it worth while to do the treatment. And it has been very helpful.

 

[_Kim_]

Ross, about 15 years ago, I was urged to get Hep-B vaccinations when I worked with developmentally disabled adults. I instinctively refused, thinking that it would somehow reactivate the symptoms of mono and hepatitis I had 10 years prior. But last year, I was required to get Hep-B vaccinations in order to attend my local university. Like you, I'll never know for certain what brought on my current episode, but vaccinations and stress would be my answer to the question Dr. Peterson asked you. I find it ironic that Hep-B was required for enrollment, yet that may have been the trigger that made my concentration and memory so poor that I couldn't function in school and had to take a leave of absence recently.

So good to know that Vistide has been helping. Perhaps I'm a candidate for a trial of that as well.

 

[Cloud]

Mighty fine instincts Kim.....your in the right field

The university required the vaccines? Best I can recall with my Nursing job was that the I had to sign a release if I refused. But they were coercive about it.
I heard that some states were requiring grammer school kids to get them!! What for?? They are not at risk! Of course the whole idea of vaccines is to benefit the greater good....but that rationale only seems reasonable as long as you avoid being collateral damage.

I think you know that the Vistide is indicated for CMV, which was the only virus I tested positive for. I have made huge improvements. What my xmrv results will do is up next. I think we are witnessing history with the xmrv discovery. Like Dr Peterson's last words to me last week....."Stay tuned"

 

[froufox]

Hi Ross,

Yes it was the same with me too I didnt even think about the vaccines at the time and then thought it was too difficult to prove anyway plus the problem with time elapsing. I did just read that it is supposedly easier in the US to claim compensation re vaccines compared to the UK, but from what you say its obviously not that easy and dealing with bureaucracy is exhausting in itself and doubly hard when you're ill!

Up until 2006 tho the Hep B vaccination was actually accepted by our health system as a possible cause of certain illnesses including ME but then the policy was suddenly changed to saying there is no link. Some MPs are looking into why there was this sudden change of policy.

Also there has been a new Early Day Motion recently here in the UK to allow employees to apply for compensation with regard to vaccine damage in relation to their occupations no matter how long it has been since they had the vaccines so that is good news. So if a paper goes through I'm going to pursue that even though I still think it might be difficult to prove anything causal in my case as it is not like I can say I got ill on the day I received any of the vaccines so its not clear cut at all. As you say we just want to get well at the end of the day but it would be nice to be compensated for all of the lost yrs and as I've spent a lot of money over the yrs trying to get well!

Yes that is a tough choice re your granddaughter ... I think the H1N1 vaccine does contain thimerosal tho.. I dont have any children/grandchildren but if I did I would be reluctant to let them have any vaccines and just try to boost their immune system naturally. I think swine flu is a bit overhyped anyway but I understand your dilemma with young people being hit the hardest. Vitamin D can help prevent the flu and a lot of us are deficient, maybe something to look into?

Hi Kim good for you that you refused the first lot of vaccines but I'm sorry you had to get the vaccine just to attend University! Wow I didnt know that was the case over there... yet another money spinner for Big Pharma... I hope that you find some treatment that helps.

 

[_Kim_]

Hi Kim good for you that you refused the first lot of vaccines but I'm sorry you had to get the vaccine just to attend University! Wow I didnt know that was the case over there... yet another money spinner for big pharma... I hope that you find some treatment that helps.

froufox, I honestly don't think that the Hep-B vaccine requirements for University students was implemented to make the pharmaceutical companies rich. The vaccine series was not expensive. I'm certainly not "anti-vaccination" - most people receive them without incident. I didn't consider myself to be immuno-compromised when I got mine. As I said in an earlier post, I'll never know whether they contributed to my current symptoms. I'm just trying to put all of the clues together to figure this illness out. I want to understand the etiology so that I can make better choices in the future.

 

[liverock]

I did just read that it is supposedly easier in the US to claim compensation re vaccines compared to the UK

Not for the swine flu vaccinations. The US government has granted immunity from prosecution for manufacturers of swine flu vaccines. Tough luck if you are the one to suffer(and the odds are a lot of people will, as there has not been time to properly test this vaccine.)

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...mmunity-Set-for-Swine-Flu-Vaccine-Makers.aspx

 

[Martlet]

Tough luck if you are the one to suffer(and the odds are a lot of people will, as there has not been time to properly test this vaccine.)

I'm not worried about the H1N1 vaccine. I've had an annual flu shot ever since developing CFS - recommended by the diagnosing internist - and the only problem is that I get a strong immune response that lays me low for a couple of weeks. Every year, the vaccine is "new" in that it will contain different strains. The H1N1 vaccine is made in exactly the same way as the seasonal vaccine and when it comes available, I will have it.

PS - But I would never have the attenuated version of any flu virus. Goodness knows what that would do to someone with a screwed up immune system!

 

[froufox]

Hi Kim

I guess I am just very surprised that it was compulsory before you could even embark upon your University course. It just seems like more and more vaccines are pushed through all the time. Is Hep B on the rise over there? I think education about safe sex, dirty needles etc is far more important. Also I think that although an individual vaccine series may not yield high profits on its own, putting it into context, vaccines on the whole are big business and each vaccine series that is pushed through contributes to a culture where vaccines end up being regarded as the sole preventative treatment for most illnesses, so it becomes easier to push more and more through as they have a captive market. That would be fine if they were shown to be completely safe but that isnt true.

I'm not personally convinced that vaccines are always the answer anyway as they are an artificial way to overcome diseasee but given that we have them what is important is that there should be more research, perhaps genetic research into who might potentially suffer adverse effects and there should be more support for people who have had adverse effects.

I am not sure that anyone can say that most people receive vaccines without incident, that would be impossible to know for sure plus there are many incidents that have been documented that shows that different vaccines have caused many many adverse effects throughout history but most people would not be aware of this you have to dig through the literature to find it, and the pharmaceutical companies just play it all down.

I understand what you say about figuring out the etiology and I agree the cause of any illness is complex but I don't think that it is fair that we are ones having to figure it all out as most of us are not scientists. I wonder why pharmaceutical companies arent helping us out or educating doctors more about vaccines and the immune system since they are the ones developing them.

Also some of us have been completely abandoned by both the medical profession and the pharmaceutical companies. Glaxo Smith Kline never showed any interest in helping me figure out why my immune system suddenly packed up when I said I thought the Hep B vaccines might have had a negative effect on me. I was told that it couldnt possibly be down to their vaccine because it is a very safe vaccine, and that it wouldnt have had anything to do with the mercury in them either (how could they know that?) and was told to go back to my GP. Then my GP just referred to the literature written by the company themselves saying it is very rare to have an adverse reaction to the vaccine. So basically I didnt fit into their "statistics". And yet there are others out there who were also affected but I wasn't informed of this. If pharmaceutical companies didn't minimise issues and push certain issues like mercury under the carpet and showed that they cared more I would be a lot less suspicious of their motives.

Anyway I really hope you find some answers to your questions as to why you got ill and you find a treatment that works

Take care.

Thanks Liverock, I didnt know that.

 

[jenbooks]

I do think the hep B vaccine is for profit--every newborn is required to get it the day they're born and how many newborns are at risk for hep b which is transmitted by unsafe sex or dirty needles? Start requiring it of all university students too--that's a big profit.

I can understand *offering* it to students who might be engaging in promiscuous sex practices...and want protection. IE just counseling, If you don't feel you can follow safe sex practices you might want to opt for the vaccine. If you do feel you can follow safe sex practices, no need to...

Interestingly, some researchers told me autism started skyrocketing around the time they started giving hep b vaccines to babies.

What is it about the hep b vaccine I'm curious? Is there an adjuvant in it such as squalene? It does seem to cause problems.

 

[froufox]

Jenbooks I agree with your points and about the profits.

Yes the Hep B vaccine seems to be particularly nasty when you realise the huge amount of adverse effects that have been associated with it.

Marc Girard a French drug expert has done some good research on the Hep B vaccine, it would be worth reading his articles. It is thought that one reason might be due to a something called 'molecular mimicry' where the viral protein has the same molecular structure to the hosts own tissue so the body then attacks itself causing autoimmune problems and demyelinating disorders like multiple sclerosis. Though I do wonder if it really is autoimmunity or whether it is just other infections proliferating and causing damage due to the body's ecology being disturbed.

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/girard_h.html

The Engerix B vaccines I had did not contain squalene but I dont know if later batches contained it. They did contain thimerosal which has been associated with autistic disorders and Engerix B has been shown in particular to increase the risk of CNS demyelination..

http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/10/873

The thimerosal in HBV may well be a significant factor because as with most vaccines even if they contain mercury you usually receive just one jab whereas with Hep B you have to have 3 inoculations spread out over a 7-8mth period but you have the first 2 within 2 months. So the many health problems that are associated with it might be at least partly down to mercury overload.

 

[Cloud]

Wow, that says a lot about their confidence in this vaccines safety.....thanks for the info



QUOTE=liverock;8185]Not for the swine flu vaccinations. The US government has granted immunity from prosecution for manufacturers of swine flu vaccines. Tough luck if you are the one to suffer(and the odds are a lot of people will, as there has not been time to properly test this vaccine.)

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...mmunity-Set-for-Swine-Flu-Vaccine-Makers.aspx[/QUOTE]

 

[Cloud]

FrouFox......Maybe I am writing the Vaccine injury compensation issue off too easily. Yes, the bureaucracy is as one would expect.....enough to make you crazy! But, you right about the reasons to pursue it.....Maybe I wouldn't be awarded punitive damages, but lost wages and ongoing disability purposes may be possible. I am going to start looking into this a little at a time. I appreciate all the links and feedback on this issue.

Hope everyone is doing well

ross

 

[froufox]

No problem Ross. Lots of luck if you decide to go ahead and pursue it too and don't let the ******** grind you down!!

Neil Z. Miller's books are very good and worth reading. They contain a lot of documentation on the adverse effects of vaccines, particularly the Vaccine Safety Manual which has a whole 50 pages devoted to the Hep B vaccine. Might be useful as more evidence.

Let me know how you get on, best wishes.

 

[Mark]

Glaxo Smith Kline never showed any interest in helping me figure out why my immune system suddenly packed up when I said I thought the Hep B vaccines might have had a negative effect on me. I was told that it couldnt possibly be down to their vaccine because it is a very safe vaccine, and that it wouldnt have had anything to do with the mercury in them either (how could they know that?)

Exactly: how could they know that? There's no way they could. The same people who would criticise us for making sweeping statements about the WPI study, and who would claim to be applying proper scientific scepticism...those same people are perfectly happy to make definitive statements that something is safe, perfectly happy to dismiss radical theories out of hand. Scepticism seems to go out of the window for such people when it comes to questioning the status quo. Scepticism is to be applied only to unfamiliar ideas. It's called conservatism, it can never result in progress, and there's too much of it about.

 

[Robin]

Exactly: how could they know that? There's no way they could. The same people who would criticise us for making sweeping statements about the WPI study, and who would claim to be applying proper scientific scepticism...those same people are perfectly happy to make definitive statements that something is safe, perfectly happy to dismiss radical theories out of hand. Scepticism seems to go out of the window for such people when it comes to questioning the status quo. Scepticism is to be applied only to unfamiliar ideas. It's called conservatism, it can never result in progress, and there's too much of it about.

I went through this with my sister when she was trying to sort out all of autism/mercury/vaccine stuff with her kids. That was before they took the thimerasol out of vaccines. Her friends had told her not to vaccinate and it scared her, so we did a lot of research.

Basically, the mercury in shots is ethylmercury, not methylmercury. Most of it is excreted from the body quickly unlike the other kind which can slowly accumulate in tissue (though it is excreted gradually as well). The dose in, say, a flu shot is really tiny. It's about 1/3 of the amount of methylmercury that's in a can of tuna. Mercury poisoning is measurable, accumulative, and there are lots of standards about what can be safely imposed on the body, not just by vaccines but by air, water, and other foods. Utilities that process coal contribute to environmental mercury and the fallout is pretty much global (ie, a lot of the mercury pollution in the US is from other countries.) So, it's something you're exposed to every day just in small amounts. In addition to safety testing (see below), "they" know that it's pretty much impossible to get mercury poisoning from a shot.

Vaccines are tested for safety in healthy people and high risk groups like the elderly and pregnant women, but, because adverse reactions are kind of rare ( measured in 1 in 100,000 or 1 in 1,000,000) they don't often show up in testing. So, after the vaccine is rolled out, the government monitors reports of adverse reactions, and if they're significant they'll pull it from the market.

It's basically a risk:benefit thing. If 60,000 people are going to die from swine flu, and another 200,000 will be hospitalized, but if they dispense 1,000,000 shots and only 1,000 people react to the vaccine...then it's still policy to ship the vaccine out because it's for greater good. It's the same thing with pharmaceuticals -- there's a level of acceptable risk. If vaccine makers got tied up in liability issues then it might be disastrous if a true epidemic emerged. So "they" know that sh&t happens with vaccines, they just don't really care if it's not many people.

I'm a skeptic myself, and I agree that it's not time yet to make sweeping statements about the WPI study, but it's also not time to be dismissive either. True skeptics will look at the best evidence, use critical thinking, and leave it to science to resolve answers.

 

[garcia]

The dose in, say, a flu shot is really tiny. It's about 1/3 of the amount of methylmercury that's in a can of tuna.

This is a highly misleading statement. Even if true (where did you get the figures from?), the point is you don't inject a can of tuna into your blood stream.

Here is an idea. Take the mercury from your amalgam fillings and inject it into your blood. After all it is the "same amount" as in your mouth, so by your logic should cause the same amount of harm no?

 

[Katie]

Is it possible to split this thread in two? I was hoping to read other people's thoughts one transmission but the majority of this thread is about vaccines. I'm very interested in the vaccine topic (rubella and GF within months of each other then 12 years of ME/CFS) but I would really like to focus on transmission.


Transmission is important to me because both myself and my husband have ME/CFS and I would like to learn more about theories that could affect mother-father-child transmission. I'd also like to know for the sake of people around me. Should I expect or ask for a medic alert bracelet? What if I'm in a car accident and I infect some unknowing good Samaritan? When I get cuts and scrapes, how should I deal with it? Do I need to do something special to clean it? Will we be excluded from certain professions?

Another point is that XMRV has been connected to many other illnesses, diseases and cancer. If we look at the population in terms of symptomatic XMRV and not just XAND, we may find more family and close contact connections because the XMRV has has a different effects in different people. Some may have autism for example. I've been looking of a UK based ME forum for parents (not very active forum) but found many parents with autistic children. There's an interesting poll here too on the subject of CFS/MEers with children.

I was 11-12 when I first became ill, so the likelihood was that if I test positive for XMRV it either piggybacked or I was born with it. I'm leaning towards the latter in light of most childhood onset cases, it seems to come on when a combination of factors come together that put the body under stress - puberty, vaccinations, viruses (usually because you've just moved to a bigger high school and you're more exposed, like mini-Freshers Flu). The piggyback theory is equally viable.

If it's in us, we have to take all necessary measures to prevent it spreading any further. Whilst I've not felt to bad at being lumped in the same camp as HIV (I'm from England, it's much better than being in the cook-coo hysterical camp, believe me) it would be nice to have more information so we can make XMRV more distinct regarding transmission. I have no doubt we have good people working on that!

 

[Advocate]

A Downside of Organ Donation - today's

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703344704574609960519672346.html



Unos, which began collecting data about disease transmission through organs in late 2004, said in a study published earlier this year that it was reported in only about 1% of all deceased-donor donations. But the number of reported cases grew from seven in 2005 to 60 in 2006 and 97 in 2007, and the study acknowledged that the number of disease transmission is underreported.

In a new report commissioned by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, experts from the CDC and other government agencies warn that a patchwork of regulations and voluntary efforts by groups such as Unos aren't sufficient. The report, "Biovigilance in the United States: Efforts to Bridge a Critical Gap in Patient Safety and Donor Health," calls for the creation of a centralized system to monitor blood, organ and tissue safety, gather reports of illness or adverse reactions among recipients, and quickly trace organs and tissues from donors who are found to carry infectious diseases. (It is available at hhs.gov/bloodsafety.)

 

[_Kim_]

Is it possible to split this thread in two? I was hoping to read other people's thoughts one transmission but the majority of this thread is about vaccines. I'm very interested in the vaccine topic (rubella and GF within months of each other then 12 years of ME/CFS) but I would really like to focus on transmission.

Great idea Katie. I'll take a look at the thread a little later and see if I can do a clean split into two topics.