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XMRV and Transmission: The Big Question

Martlet

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I am not making this up. read this article which attacks patients with CFS:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=cfs
I did read it, and followed the link to the article on Phoenix Rising, which was not to these forums but rather to an article on the static part of the site. I actually think the author shot himself in the foot. His own readers disagreed with him and I think that he came across as rather hysterically clinging to his own preconceived ideas. Sometimes, just letting our detractors run on is the best way. Something about ropes and hanging themselves. :)
 

froufox

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Thanks for your post Starcycle and for the kind words.

Eric, I dont have time to reply to you properly now but just wanted to say I appreciate your comments and thanks for posting those links, I'll definitely check them out.

All the best to everyone.
 

Martlet

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This is totally false. The polio vaccine ended the polio epidemic in north america.
Indeed it did, and across Europe. The greatest vaccine victory though, in my opinion, was with smallpox. WHO report here. A disease that had ravaged the world is now extinct, except in laboratories.

Vaccines can and do help humanity. They also can and do injure some individuals. It's all a matter of risk v benefit, as with all medical interventions. Unlike many here, I do have an annual flu shot, and have had the H1N1 shot. The immune response always, always crashes me for a few weeks but having once had the flu since developing CFS, I'd prefer this "managed crash" over what the flu did to me. That said, whether or not to get vaccinated is a personal decision and I can see and respect both sides of the argument.
 

Samuel

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Transmission to groups of people

Back to the titular topic.

What do we know about the entire basketball team and a lot of musicians?

I've considered about 10-15 possibilities. The most likely seems to be the viral piggyback hypothesis. But there is much I don't know about it and it relies on several assumptions.

I would be interested in learning more about those types of outbreaks.
 
K

_Kim_

Guest
piggyback?

Samuel, there is some research out there about the ability of HIV to piggyback onto other viruses. I don't know how similar the XMRV envelope is to the HIV envelope though.

Does HIV Piggyback on CD4-like surface proteins of sperm, viruses, and bacteria ? Implications for co-transmission, cellular tropism and the induction of autoimmunity in AIDS

Coinfections of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), EBV, and HTLV or sperm proteins act synergistically to enhance infectivity and replication and expand cellular tropism. While some aspects of these synergisms are understood, others are not. We have found that membrane or surface proteins of CMV, HTLV, EBV and sperm proteins share large regions of similarity with the CD4 protein of T-helper lymphocytes. Since HIV uses CD4 as a receptor, it may bind to CD4 homologues on CMV, HTLV, EBV or sperm proteins. HIV could then piggyback with these viruses into cells with which it normally has no tropism
 
K

Katie

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I hope this thread continues along the lines it has, I find theorising fascinating as, afterall, it was Mikovits's theory that XMRV might be found in CFS that got us this far. Curious minds with feet on the ground can only be a good thing. I also think it's best for this thread to be split in the new year when everyone is back on their feet.
 

froufox

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I agree Katie, I think the issues of how many vaccines to give at any one time and also when to inoculate seem to me to be very obvious and important ones. For example it seems nonsensical to me to inject babies with multiple vaccines when their immune systems have barely developed.

Yes it definitely sounds like there was something wrong with your immune system already doesnt it and I understand where you're coming from as it sounds like it was just a case of when you were going to get ill rather than if. I never had any history of sensitivity or reactions to vaccines apart from getting a short-lived rash after the measles one when I was a child so my mum tells me, which was considered a normal reaction. Nothing other than that until I had an advanced course of 4 Hep B jabs when I was an adult. But I didnt appear to respond properly tho as I didnt produce enough antibodies, hence I ended up getting the 4th jab which would have been unnecessary otherwise. I became ill shortly after that last jab. I do wonder whether I had just had too many in too short a space of time or whether it was due to the nature of the vaccine itself, or due to the thimerosal in there or maybe I was carrying XMRV! Who knows.. I defintely didnt have any prior clues that I might have been immunosuppressed anyway.

Do you feel a vaccine triggered your ME? What happened when you had the rubella one?

Hope you had a nice Christmas.

But one aspect of vaccinations to be discussed is how many at a time, what time in life and how it might effect immune suppressed people. For example, the MMR might be more appropriate split up. I was exempt from vaccines during most of my childhood due to the nasty side effects and actually catching the disease I was being protected from in the case of measels. I also had whopping cough and mumps. It was obvious something was up with my immune system but I thought I knew better and went for rubella. I think I was a case waiting to be triggered so I don't feel too much hate towards my decision.
 
S

starcycle

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I once had a 105F fever for 4 days after getting an allergy desensitization injection. With all the people who suffer allergies and also have CFS, I'll bet there's a stronger link between getting allergy injections and CFS than immunizations.

That would be extremely difficult to show, since probably almost everyone who has received allergy injections has also received immunizations. But I suppose it could be done somehow, by comparing CFS rates in the subpopulation who receive both to those who only receive immunizations, etc.
 

froufox

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Sorry this really is getting very off topic but just wanted to respond to Eric's posts. My heads in a pickle most of the time so I havent yet been able to do enough research into this and check which primary sources are the most credible but thanks very much for posting those links, its obviously not an easy task to get to the truth and I totally appreciate what you say about being conned :rolleyes:

For the polio ref I mentioned Miller cites "Eleanor Mc Bean's "The Poisoned Needle" (1974) and notes that this was from US Govt statistics from the Associated Press dispatch from Boston. For the smallpox ref he cites Hannah Allen "Don't Get Stuck! The Case Against Vaccinations and Injections" (1975)

I've just actually ordered those 2 books as I want to do more research and I'd also love to get hold of the History of Poliomyelitis - funny that Miller does not reference the Paul book at all.

Here's a link to some of his research on polio online..
http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

As you will see he cites Dr Robert Mendelsohn ("How to Raise a Healthy Child...In Spite of Your Doctor", 1984) as one source arguing the case for the vaccine having no influence on the decline of polio.

One good point he makes is in regarding the change in the medical definition of polio which he suggests has skewed the figures. For example before 1955 asceptic meningitis and coxsackie virus were included in the defintion of polio, whereas after 1955 (dead vaccine was introduced 1955) asceptic meningitis and coxsackie were recorded as separate diseases. So naturally this would affect the figures. He argues that this was the case with smallpox too. He says for example if a person who was vaccinated contracted the disease they were vaccinated against, it was recorded under a different name. Again I'm too brainfogged to research this thoroughly at the moment.

Another thing that does concern me is defining 'adverse effects' - with a strict definition you would naturally expect the figures to be more conservative but if we expand the definition it becomes more difficult to measure. Adverse effects usually refer to acute reactions like sickness/vomiting, skin rashes, fever, headaches etc usually in the few days following inoculation. But what if an adverse effect include increased susceptibility to another illness due to too suppression of the immune system...how can that be measured? Adverse effects from the Hep B vaccine according to GlaxoSKline's own research was only based on 4 days monitoring following the vaccination ... so its tough luck if have a reaction on the 5th day! You wouldnt be included in their official stats. Presumably this is the same with most other vaccines too. I'd like to know how do they decide on the time period within which to monitor adverse effects?

And this would obviously exclude incidences where the vaccines may suppress the immune system in a more subtle way eg tipping the immune system too much one way and leaving the individual susceptible to other infections (maybe TH1 controlled infections) and less able to fight them off following this period. This is difficult to ascertain but I do wonder if this is what happened in my case.. I got ill about 10 days following my 4th jab and have never been the same since. I have no proof of a definite link, maybe I was already harbouring other infections but it leaves me with unanswered questions as to why my immune system suddenly decided to pack up.. I have met other people who have had exactly the same response to the Hep B vaccine. I think it is very plausible that the vaccines suppressed my immune system too much. But I wouldnt fit into the statistics of 'adverse effects'. From my research I think adverse effects are much more common than officially acknowledged.

All the best.

That is worth noting. But it is also worth noting that rare adverse effects from vaccines, not including autism, are universally acknowledged.

I dont know what data you are referring to. But beware that there is made-up data in this field, concocted by fanatics. I have fallen for it myself in the past, not knowing what the deal was, leading me to concoct a false theory about the Flynn Effect.

Also, the theory that the general decline of infectious disease was not due to medical intervention, is controversial and probably quite false in the main. See

http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/02/21/life-death-pre-vaccination/#comments

And also, including comments by me, here:
http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/09/02/measles-deaths-pre-vaccine/

This is totally false. The polio vaccine ended the polio epidemic in north america. Figure 2 here:

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&start=20&um=1

Not really. It depends on how you your source your data and whether the methods were sound in the original production of the data. What is Miller's source for his false statements on polio epidemiology? If there isnt a footnote with a source, there is no reason to believe him rather than other sources.
 

froufox

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I dont know starcycle, perhaps, its not something I've looked into. A lot of people with ME/CFS develop allergies due to the ME/CFS, including myself but I've no idea how common it is for someone with already existing allergies to go on to develop CFS from allergy shots. I've never heard of any cases like that but thats just my experience. It would be an interesting area to research I agree. My understanding is that some allergy shots in the past contained thimerosal too so I wonder if that is a factor.

Sorry you had such a bad reaction to the allergy shot.

I once had a 105F fever for 4 days after getting an allergy desensitization injection. With all the people who suffer allergies and also have CFS, I'll bet there's a stronger link between getting allergy injections and CFS than immunizations.

That would be extremely difficult to show, since probably almost everyone who has received allergy injections has also received immunizations. But I suppose it could be done somehow, by comparing CFS rates in the subpopulation who receive both to those who only receive immunizations, etc.
 
S

starcycle

Guest
I dont know starcycle, perhaps, its not something I've looked into. A lot of people with ME/CFS develop allergies due to the ME/CFS, including myself but I've no idea how common it is for someone with already existing allergies to go on to develop CFS whether from allergy shots or otherwise. I've never heard of any cases like that but thats just my experience. It would be an interesting area to research I agree. My understanding is that some allergy shots in the past contained thimerosal too so I wonder if that is a factor.
Exactly, not to mention formaldehyde and who knows what other preservatives.

And allergy shots obviously interact with the immune system, regardless of whether there is a dramatic reaction like I had or not. When they start tampering that way with things they don't understand, it's impossible to say what the possible long term effects could be.
 

gracenote

All shall be well . . .
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Cheney on vaccinations

I don't know if this has been posted yet. It will not clarify anything as you have to subscribe to Cheney Research for the rest of the article. But the role of vaccinations is being discussed. Are there any subscribers here? This is from Cheney Research Newsletter No. 8 which came out yesterday.

Vaccination a complex decision with increasingly no good answer

It appears vaccine contamination risk will be a rising threat as we approach over 50 different vaccinations now recommended in children and now including the increased microbial contamination risk of cell associated vaccine manufacturing. In such vaccination decisions, one has to weigh the risk to benefit ratio of each vaccination including the multi-vaccine vaccinations in a particular individual at one moment in time. The longer view risk to the population of such aggressive vaccination programs is even murkier.
Cheney Research
 

Advocate

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Eric & the major histocompatibility complex

Judging by (inter alia) their lack of diversity at the all important MHC loci, the most important molecules in the immune system, it appears that Amerindians suffered almost no infectious disease.
Hi Eric,

Any time you want to expand a bit on the MHC loci, I'll be interested. I've looked up the MHC definition hundreds of times, and it doesn't get embedded in my brain. Here's a typical definition:

"...a group of genes in mammals that code for cell-surface polymorphic glycoprotein molecules which display antigenic peptide fragments for T cell recognition and aid in the ability of the immune system to determine self from nonself."

Do you have any loony visual tricks for remembering that? Any ideas for arousing passion related to it? Opinions? Humor? Maybe a paragraph about Amerindians?
 
K

Katie

Guest
I agree Katie, I think the issue of how many vaccines to give at any one time and also when to inoculate seems to me to be a very obvious and important one. For example it seems nonsensical to me to inject babies with multiple vaccines when their immune systems have barely developed.

Yes it definitely sounds like there was something wrong with your immune system already doesnt it and I understand where you're coming from as it sounds like it was just a case of when with you, rather than if. I never had any history of sensitivity or reactions to vaccines apart from getting a short-lived rash after the measles one when I was a child so my mum tells me, which was considered a normal reaction. Nothing other than that until I had an advanced course of 4 Hep B jabs when I was an adult. But I didnt appear to respond properly tho as I didnt produce enough antibodies, hence I ended up getting the 4th jab which would have been unnecessary otherwise. I became ill shortly after that last jab. I do wonder whether I had just had too many in too short a space of time or whether it was due to the nature of the vaccine itself, or due to the thimerosal in there or maybe I was carrying XMRV! Who knows.. I defintely didnt have any prior clues that I might have been immunosuppressed anyway.

Do you feel a vaccine triggered your ME? What happened when you had the rubella one?

Hope you had a nice Christmas.

I agree with you, definately a case of when rather than if. Coming to that conclusion helped me feel a lot less like I had brought my own fate upon me. Immediately after the rubella jab I don't remember, I'll have to ask my mum, but in the three months leading up to Christmas and my glandular fever-like flu I was dropping my after school activities (the first one I dropped just a week or two after, I was struggling quite soon after), sleeping more than usual, losing concentration in classes and found high school an extremely difficult adjustment as I was overwhelmed with work I didn't have the energy or brain power to complete. Before that I was in the top five of my class, not to brag but I was a bright spark and that slipped through my fingers like sand until GF hit and that was it, no recovery and I'll be 25 years old in March.


Because of the gap between my vaccination and GF and the decline in my health during that time I do believe that the vaccination was the initial catalyst. If I had avoided GF perhaps I could have fought my way back but on reflection I think my immune system was on its knees ready for an opportunistic infection. Whether this was caused by XMRV I don't know, but my immune system has certainly not fired on all cyclinders from a very young age and I've heard of no one with these reactions to vaccines. If it was the case that a latent XMRV infection was triggered by the rubella jab then I would theorise that I was born with it as the most logical choice. I don't know how the piggy back thing might work for carrying latent infection, but my suspicion is that this has been fighting to come through a while but that hormones may have helped tip the balance as well. In summary, I was taken down by three factors - hormones, vaccination and GF.


My perfect storm.



On a separate note, someone I know very well with ME since childhood (10 years at viral onset, male) recovered (mostly) in his late teens but relapsed violently and have since continued to suffer for 10 years after having BCG. He's not the only person I know to have developed ME/CFS from uni vaccinations as it's a hive of stress and bugs.

Do I think that there's something nasty in vaccinations? No, probably not in these cases. What I do think is that there is something wrong with our immune systems and in that way XMRV makes a heck of a lot of sense.
 

acer2000

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To be quite honest nobody knows what the transmission situation will be like for XMRV if it ends up being the cause of ME. However, it seems to have a transmission pattern similar to Hepatitis C. Its blood born, seems to be transmittible via transfusion, very rarely sexually, sometimes via birth, and other times nobody knows where they got it from.

The outbreaks are where it really gets hung up. Most diseases that are strictly blood borne don't spread like the common cold. I suppose it could have been dormant in those groups and woken up by another factor. /shrug

Of course these are just my speculations...
 

acer2000

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Mum got CFS after lots of tick bites and heavy exposure to organophosphates when I was seven. The organophosphates could only have awakened a latent/hitherto symptomless viral infection. The tick could have conveyed XMRV as well as Lyme, or else the Lyme could have activated the latent XMRV she already had.
Well we won't know until you are tested (and your family) but Organophosphate exposure doesn't have to activate a pathogen to cause illness and immune supression. It's toxic in and of itself and most likely could cause fatigue, cognitivie problems, and immune supression. As can Lyme or any of the other 20 or so infections you can get from a tick.

And therin lies the problem again. There are other exposures/infections that can clearly cause symptoms that are the same as "CFS". Thats because "CFS" is a rather vague definition and diagnosis of exclusion. Could those exposures and tick bites have activated XMRV - most definitely - but it could also be Lyme & friends or just toxic exposure (both which can be passed down and neither which are easy to diagnose and treat.)

Anyways, I look forward to hearing the results from situations such as this. It will help clear up the chicken/egg dilema and also obviously help people get better!
 

Tom

windows exterminator
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from mice to men/women

Transmission can be straight from mice to humans, before xmas there was a newspaper piece about eating mice in Malawi ,and also a TV show,Heston Blumenthal, preparing a course of dormice and mice for a meal in his restuarant.
He also cooked and ate mice and dormice in the lead up to the meal.
People have been eating mice since ,at least, Roman times.:eek::eek::eek:

Tom
 
C

Cloud

Guest
To be quite honest nobody knows what the transmission situation will be like for XMRV if it ends up being the cause of ME. However, it seems to have a transmission pattern similar to Hepatitis C. Its blood born, seems to be transmittible via transfusion, very rarely sexually, sometimes via birth, and other times nobody knows where they got it from.

The outbreaks are where it really gets hung up. Most diseases that are strictly blood borne don't spread like the common cold. I suppose it could have been dormant in those groups and woken up by another factor. /shrug

Of course these are just my speculations...

more speculating and pontificating......

Indeed, how does one explain cluster outbreaks if xmrv is NOT spread by droplet? Was it an orgy? Tick's or Mosquito's rushed the schools and hospitals? Even the theory that xmrv may have been there dormant in people until an Immune insult hits, would be hard to believe with a cluster outbreak. Did all 250+ people have latent xmrv?
Indeed XMRV explains LOTS of things, epecially for me. But, cluster outbreaks is one situation that throws a curve into the theory of xmrv being "the cause". Besides, unless we are getting some false negatives, I don't see how it could possibly be the "sole cause" of ME/CFS anyhow.