"Women who survived coronavirus angry after persistent symptoms dismissed as ‘anxiety’ by doctors." Doesn't this sound familiar?

[wabi-sabi]

Is it as common when seeking advice from health care advisors who are NOT medical doctors ie Nutritionists, Herbalists ect?

I'm not sure...
Lately I've been thinking about all the ways that patient blaming can show up in healthcare. Mainstream medicine (if I can call it that) blames patients by invoking the BPS model. We all know how that goes. But I think alternative medicine (if I can call it that) has its ways of patient blaming too. Selling things that don't work and promises to heal if you just have the right energy. Both times it comes down to patients keeping themselves sick by thinking the wrong things, whether that's not accepting a "functional neurologic" diagnosis or not thinking positive and clearing negative energy. The words practitioners choose are dictated by what type of medicine they practice, but either way they can't fix us so it must somehow be because we didn't try hard enough or think about things in the right way.

I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on this. I haven't made as much of a study of sexism in alternative medicine. But I just feel like there's a commonality in all medicine that when the doc can't fix you, it too often becomes your fault.

 

[wabi-sabi]

Here's an interesting overview paper on sexism in mainstream medicine and the effects on alternative medicine:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11673-018-9890-5

The quote I like best, and certainly applies to fibro or ME/CFS: "Gendered inequalities in healthcare are also widely reported in clinical encounters, as physicians make assumptions about women’s health based on gender stereotypes about pain thresholds and patient credibility, while drawing on male-centred research and guidelines (van Wijk et al. 1996; Annandale and Hunt 2000). Women’s pain reports are often discredited or their pain inappropriately attributed to mental health issues (Hoffmann and Tarzian 2001). Women admitted to hospitals in the United States are 13 to 25 per cent less likely than men to receive opioid analgesia for abdominal pain even given the same pain score, wait longer than men to receive any pain medication at all (Chen et al. 2008), and are less likely to receive appropriate treatment for myocardial infarction, leading to a higher mortality rate (Pelletier et al. 2014)."

Look especially at the part about assumptions based on patient credibility and pain being attributed to mental health issues. Sound like what fibro patients go through? Trouble is, this is across the board the way women are treated not just women with fibro. I think (personal opinion here) this is why we don't have more good fibro research- it's getting ignored because it's (mostly) women's pain so it must just be a mental health disorder. We all suffer from the results of this sexism, not just women.


Shahvisi, A. Medicine is Patriarchal, But Alternative Medicine is Not the Answer. Bioethical Inquiry 16, 99–112 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11673-018-9890-5

 

[Booble]

Hip, you might want to quit while you are ahead.

In nearly every aspect, women are unconsciously seen as less credible and less capable. Study after study shows that both men AND women unconsciously view men more favorably in this regard. So it's not super surprising that it would extend to the doctor patient environment as well.

 

[Hip]

In nearly every aspect, women are unconsciously seen as less credible and less capable. Study after study shows that both men AND women unconsciously view men more favorably in this regard.

That's not my perception of the modern world, at least not in the UK. In a lot of relationships and marriages these days, it's the woman who's playing the leading role, setting down the rules, planning and strategizing. That's what I see in the marriages and relationships of my friends and relatives. You can read newspaper articles about modern emasculated men.

Personally I like it when women take charge in the areas where they have greater competence than men, which is a great many areas. When I was healthy and had relationships (back in ancient history), my girlfriends always took the lead in relationship and social matters, and I was happy for them to do that, because I realized they were far more naturally adept than me in those areas.

Hip, you might want to quit while you are ahead.

I might just do that!

 

[heapsreal]

Ive had many males pm me about not getting anywhere with their drs or not being believed etc. Most of these men rarely post on PR but tend to just read the forums and dont really interact. I dont think its as disproportionate between the sexes of having cfsme or being treated like crap by drs as well. I think its one of those stubborn male traits where we can switch off, give up, roll up in the corner in the fetal position and we tend to hide our symptoms from most people. Just in general males dont even go to the doctor as much as females, often to their detriment and or dragged to the drs by their wife.

 

[heapsreal]

That's not my perception of the modern world, at least not in the UK. In a lot of relationships and marriages these days, it's the woman who's playing the leading role, setting down the rules, planning and strategizing. That's what I see in the marriages and relationships of my friends and relatives. You can read newspaper articles about modern emasculated men.

Personally I have no issue with women taking charge in the areas where they have greater competence. When I was healthy and had relationships (back in ancient history), my girlfriends always took the lead in relationship and social matters, and I was happy for them to do that, because I realized they were far more naturally adept than me in those areas.





I might just do that!

Do as your told
Im second incharge in my household, i rule with an iron fist and the dog and cat know it.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

The following quote from a post by @Hip was posted as a quote by @RebeccaRe, so I couldnt requote it, and my condition today precludes trolling back thru this thread to find Hip's original post, so I'v copied and pasted it:

"I wonder if the male orientation to being more dryly logical in speech and
explanation, and the female orientation to being more emotionally expressive in their explanations (in general), may influence the way a patient's description of his or her symptoms are perceived by the doctor."
​

Drawing the distinction between men's "dry logic" and women's "more emotionally expressive" communications summarizes the exact problem that we've had to fight as women so hard for so long while tying to get diagnosed ...

​

I'm curious, why is there the assumption that the 'blame' should lie with the patient and not the doctor? A well-trained, skilled diagnostician would not let their judgement be clouded by that kind of perception. After all, pediatricians often have to diagnose little kids who tend to be extremely 'emotionally expressive' (to say the least ) when trying to explain their symptoms.

IF it's well known or even documented that women tend to be more emotional at the doctor's office than men (which I'm only assuming for the sake of argument here and nothing else), then doctors SHOULD be well aware of this fact and the role it might play in how they treat patients and should act accordingly to try to offset their own biases.

It's not just about COVID or ME/CFS. It's the pervasive sexism in medicine. I think if you look for it, you will find that it is well documented.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Drawing the distinction between men's "dry logic" and women's "more emotionally expressive" communications summarizes the exact problem that we've had to fight as women so hard for so long while tying to get diagnosed ...

Agreed!
-

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Most of these men rarely post on PR but tend to just read the forums and dont really interact. I

So, Dry Logic, some would suggest, we should admire, as it somehow conveys information more accurately or elicits- some helpful response from a medical professional?

Since data is- a wonderful source of data, who is in the office recording the conversation you are having with your doctor? What researcher is noting- the things we were told, what was said to us. Or how we said it, back?

My husband has had some pretty poor experiences with doctors who just aren't very interested. Alot of burnout.

When I was discussing my bursitis, with my alternative health care practitioner- the moment arose when I realized- he just said something and - 1) this person has not asked a single question about what am I actually experiencing- 2) this is 100% projection; 3) wow. (now is this a male female thing? well in this case the likely answer is likely yes around75%, and 25% this person doesn't listen to hardly anyone, their cup spillith over).

Nothing in that interaction will show up as data in a study of differences in how men and women are treated while seeking health care.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Most of these men rarely post on PR but tend to just read the forums and dont really interact.

My apologies as i did want to ask about this further.

I think its too bad- if men are not willing to just share a little information here. I think I understand- its funny how we can experience, dryly- feeling exposed while anonymously interacting across some wire.

So if some men feel less need to interact, well thats fine.

But it is too bad- maybe we would all learn more if some would share a bit more.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Here is some rather helpful information on how to better communicate with your doctor, if they aren't listening.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/be-heard-by-dr#2

I have 45 minute appointments with my Primary. This is unique, as I understand it. We can sometimes actually converse and get somewhere on- maybe a single topic. When I brought lots of notes, that did not work.

It appears that- be able to Tell A Story- is how we get to a diagnosis and increase the chances of the doctor actually listening.

“The old rule when I was in medical school, back in the old days of stone tablets, was that if you listen to the [person] long enough, they’ll tell you what’s wrong with them,” Reeves says.

 

[wabi-sabi]

Here is some rather helpful information on how to better communicate with your doctor, if they aren't listening.

Ah, but isn't it ironic that the onus is on us-the patient-to communicate well, rather than on the doctor to listen well?

 

[ljimbo423]

Ah, but isn't it ironic that the onus is on us-the patient-to communicate well, rather than on the doctor to listen well?

A good doctor will both listen well and ask the right questions. The onus should not be put on the patient to communicate better.

The patient is just a person trying to get help with their medical problems. Where doctors are trained and educated to become doctors, it's their profession!

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

A good doctor will both listen well and ask the right questions. The onus should not be put on the patient to communicate better.

I suppose that's true. I have to suppose, because just about every Dr I've ever ben to interrupted me, contradictd me, informed me of what I was feeling, and prescribed , or failed to, for me accordingly.

The patient is just a person trying to get help with their medical problems. Where doctors are trained and educated to become doctors, it's their profession!

No, it's not actually their profession, or at least not for a certain proportion of them. It's their effort to establish superiority and esteem, and to reap the considerable rewards that a medical profession offers..

We can talk forever about how it should be, but unless enough pressure is applied to the wound, it's not gonna stop bleeding and start healing ....

I agree with you, it shouldn't be required that patients go thru some sort of special field training in order to be able to communicate effectively with their Drs without scaring or alienating them, or pissing them off.

But, you know, there it is .....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I strongly recommend an excpetional book which might help all of us deal with the .....let's call them idiosyncrasies .... of Drs.

HOW DR'S THINK
By: Jerome Groupman (I think ...it's been several years)​

It's almost jarring to find a Dr who understands the failings of Drs, including his own, which early in his practice led him to dismiss a woman's oft-voiced, whiney and irritating complaints, thereby letting her die, and offers ways to understand and deal with them.

His main thesis is that Drs immediately stereotype a patient, usually in the most basic ways, then anchor on that stereotype for all time, and dismiss or treat them accordingly ....

Whoppee .....

Which unfortunately puts us back in the position of having to take special training in order to deal with the guy/guyette who had special training in medicine in order to treat us.

It would be soooooo ironic if it wasn't pissing me off so much.

 

[Abrin]

Drawing the distinction between men's "dry logic" and women's "more emotionally expressive" communications summarizes the exact problem that we've had to fight as women so hard for so long while tying to get diagnosed ...

Double-agreed!

I can not tell you the amount of times where I've told a doctor something calmly and collectively to be completely rejected out of hand and then have had to drag a man in with me to my next appointment to have them repeat the exact same thing that I said to the doctor in order to get be listened too.

As a complete random side note to this topic, I do think that when it comes to ME/CFS specially both women and men are pretty much in the same boat when it comes to doctors completely disregarding what patients have to say though because of the nature of the illness.

I'll never forget when decades ago I ran into a male doctor who came down with ME/CFS. He told me a story about how when he was first diagnosed that he naively believed that his colleagues that had worked along side him for years would obviously believe him. He was a doctor after all.

They didn't. In fact, the people who had worked beside him for years wrote him off as an attention-seeker.

He said to me that when he was a doctor that he had heard the phrase over and over again that “When you hear hoofs, think horses, not zebra.”

It never occurred to him until he got sick that if you really think about that phrase, what you are essentially telling doctors is that, 'If you see a zebra it is probably just a horse dressed up like one.' In other words, if someone comes to you with an illness and no medical test currently in existence can find something wrong with them then the simplest answer is that the person is probably a hypochondriac.

But, if you really think about the REAL simplest answer it is that there is a way higher probability that medical science doesn't know everything then there is that someone who is a hypochondriac would choose an illness that no one would give them any attention for claiming to have.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

But, if you really think about the REAL simplest answer it is that there is a way higher probability that medical science doesn't know everything then there is that someone who is a hypochondriac would choose an illness that no one would give them any attention for claiming to have.

I totally agree with your whole post, and this last paragraph is so right-on it should be stitched into a sampler, or even better, make a purse out of it and carry that in with you on your next appt. The logic would appear to be undefeatable, unless you've dealt with a lot of Drs ..... once they've anchored on something, there's no budging 'em ....

 

[Abrin]

I totally agree with your whole post, and this last paragraph is so right-on it should be stitched into a sampler, or even better, make a purse out of it and carry that in with you on your next appt. The logic would appear to be undefeatable, unless you've dealt with a lot of Drs ..... once they've anchored on something, there's no budging 'em ....

No kidding!

Since I used to move around a lot in the past I used to just tell them that some another random doctor in another province had already diagnosed me with something or had made a comment about something.

Believe it or not, that doctor would then never question me or fight with me about the diagnose. Nor was I ever asked for any names. They would just nod sagely and assume that one of their colleagues knew something they didn't even thought this colleague didn't really exist.

It is so crazy the games that we have to play to get medical professionals to listen to us. Sighs.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Believe it or not, that doctor would then never question me or fight with me about the diagnose

That is so effing brilliant !!!

I wish I'd thought of it, but living in the US, where records are kept and shared in a nano-second via the internet and the vilneness of HIPAA ( Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act), and the patient has absolutely zero say in who, in the medical community, can access them, allowing everyone easy access to our records but ourselves, it wouldnt work here, sadly.

There's no way a Dr would admit to not knowing something that another Dr had deduced, diagnosed, or understood. Like a stubborn 5 year old.

Again, that's just totally brill !!!

 

[Abrin]

That is so effing brilliant !!!

I wish I'd thought of it, but living in the US, where records are kept and shared in a nano-second via the internet and the vilneness of HIPAA ( Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act), and the patient has absolutely zero say in who, in the medical community, can access them, allowing everyone easy access to our records but ourselves, it wouldnt work here, sadly.

There's no way a Dr would admit to not knowing something that another Dr had deduced, diagnosed, or understood. Like a stubborn 5 year old.

Again, that's just totally brill !!!

Oh yeah, this was long ago in my youth in a previously unconnected world.

The one I tried more recently (aka within the last decade) was to tell a doctor that 'a friend told me that her doctor told her' and that seemed to work as well on the same principle.

I can see that one being WAY more hit and miss though. :/