"Women who survived coronavirus angry after persistent symptoms dismissed as ‘anxiety’ by doctors." Doesn't this sound familiar?

Zebra

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Can you point me to the studies which demonstrate this inequality? Is there published evidence that female patients are having their symptoms ignored across the board of medical diseases? Or is it mainly only in MUS diseases?

I am not really able to read books, due to substantial reading difficulties I developed after a damaging viral brain infection. But I am able to read short text summaries or study abstracts without too much difficulty.

Hi, @Hip. I'm sorry, but I cannot accommodate your request, as I have the exact opposite issue from you. My brain has never been the same after contracting encephalitis in 2014, and searching, scrolling, reading online is difficult for me. I am only willing to push myself to do that for medical research to that will directly inform my health.

I can only re-recommend the book mentioned above, or several others like it.
 
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Booble

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I wished to add my two bits here: Hip, your fully entitled to have your opinions in my opinion and I think we need to able to share these opinions. The moment one forms- there will be somebody to disagree, logically or with expressive emotion.

Opinions are also things which, upon further review and analysis, one might change one's opinions.

If we never make a stab at taking a position, sometimes we just stay in the same state, rather than moving along.

So I appreciated your opinions despite strongly disagreeing with some of what you said.

We will: disagree. The topic- needs open discussion so we can- further work thru it.


I like hearing multiple opinions as well. We can disregard the parts we don't like and disagree with but it's interesting to hear different perspectives. And if if it doesn't get nasty, debating can be fun.

In regard to this topic, it's hard for men to really know and feel all the subtle things women experience day in and day out, most of which women have gotten used to and ignore.
 

Hip

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My brain has never been the same after contracting encephalitis in 2014, and searching, scrolling, reading online is difficult for me. I am only willing to push myself to do that for medical research to that will directly inform my health.

I totally understand. I am the same in that I reserve my limited reading abilities mainly for medical stuff, and no longer read any books for pleasure or general interest. I don't even read any long articles in broadsheet newspapers; I've had to dumb down my news intake to short and simple news articles.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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I found the newspaper article second-rate, as it reports on just two cases of women who complain their symptoms are not taken seriously, and then seems to generalize those two anecdotes. But I've heard stories of men with post-COVID syndrome being told "it's all in their mind" as well.
Can you point me to the studies which demonstrate this inequality then? Is there published evidence that female patients are having their symptoms ignored across the board of medical diseases? Or is it mainly only in MUS diseases?
This IS happening, and it HAS been further explored, @Hip.
I've been waiting to hear back for @Annikki r posting a link to a thread I opened in Dec of 2018, but in view of all this, I feel that it's entirely pertinent to these conversations.


I dont have the strength right now to search out more recent evidence, or troll thru PubMed to see if there are any research studies, but these might be a good starting point for someone less hampered ...

Medical Sexism – It’s Not All In Our Minds, Women Are Often Treated Differently
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/medical-sexism-its-not-all-in-our-minds-women-are-often-treated-differently.62540/
 
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Hip

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If you have some ideas which might explain why doctors may be ignoring the symptoms of female patients, I'd like to hear them. I may learn something about a subject I have not read that much about. I threw some ideas of my own out, but don't mean to present those as any holy truth, just a ideas which might stimulate discussion.

This sort of questioning happens all the time on this forum: when people make statements, others will question those statements and ask for evidence.

I said earlier that it seems feasible to me that women's symptoms might be ignored by doctors; so I am not antagonistic to the idea; but I'd still like to see evidence, in terms of published studies.

And I'd like to hear some explanations of why it is happening. I already proposed a possible explanation: that because women suffer hugely higher rates of MUS diseases compared to men, women may unfortunately get a bad image of people who complain when no illness can be found (which is not fair, I agree, because MUS illnesses are real illnesses).



Please know that doesn't mean I don't value the research and experience you generously share elsewhere on the forum, Hip.

Thank you for your kind words.
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

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I got the sense that you guys already believe without doubt that women are getting a raw deal from the medical profession, and maybe you want to talk about that among yourselves.
You bet I " .... believe without a doubt ....".


I very nearly died from it.

My mother did, after a long, miserable, painful battle with the cancer her Dr had completely dismissed, failing to perform even the basic tests that I'd requested from him, in writing ....

An old friend was misdiagnosed repeatedly. She had two strikes against her: she was female, and overweight.

She had diabetes. Big mystery to the Drs who repeatedly told her to .... 1) go on a diet ..... 2) exercise more .... 3) dont eat junk food ..... 4) control her impulses ....

She lost a foot, and a large chunk of her life.

Many of those who've previously questioned the validity of medical gender bias have often discovered its existence on their own, thru thier own experiences, and have seen the light ....

We've not only seen it, we've damn near been blinded by it.
 
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Rufous McKinney

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And I'd like to hear some intelligent explanations of why it is happening. I already proposed a possible explanation: that because women suffer hugely higher rates of MUS diseases compared to men, women may unfortunately get a bad image of people who complain when no illness can be found (which is not fair, I agree, because MUS illnesses are real illnesses).

I am not entirely sure how research studies could be designed to get at how patients are treated by doctors and what is going on in the doctors head when they dismiss patients or further treatment is forgone.
 
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YippeeKi YOW !!

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After I simply calmly describe this condition, and express a valid concern about implants..can anyone guess what this dental surgeon said?

"I don't believe you".
Excellent example of what we've all dealt with in one form or another.

And your description of the difficulties involved in getting actual 'research' into the issue, and why it will NEVER be done is on the nose ....
 

Rufous McKinney

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Excellent example of what we've all dealt with in one form or another.

And your description of the difficulties involved in getting actual 'research' into the issue, and why it will NEVER be done is on the nose ....

My apologies- as I re-read that example, I decided I could not specifiy this as a male or female problem or issue so I deleted it in editing.

Does that doctor say I don't believe you to his male patients? I don't know.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

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My apologies- as I re-read that example, I decided I could not specifiy this as a male or female problem or issue so I deleted it in editing.
I widh you'd put it back.

None of us can guarantee that the treatment we got from a dismissive or derisive Dr was because we are female ..... what we can attest to is that we get that treatment over and over and over again to the point where dismissing it as a 'coincidence' or a fluke would be somewhere between 'extremely difficult' and 'delusional'
 

Rebeccare

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I wonder if the male orientation to being more dryly logical in speech and explanation, and the female orientation to being more emotionally expressive in their explanations (in general), may influence the way a patient's description of his or her symptoms are perceived by the doctor. If it does influence perception, then the blame would lie less with the doctor, and more with the person doing the explaining. Potential factors like this should be taken into account, if we want to better understand the problem.
I'm curious, why is there the assumption that the 'blame' should lie with the patient and not the doctor? A well-trained, skilled diagnostician would not let their judgement be clouded by that kind of perception. After all, pediatricians often have to diagnose little kids who tend to be extremely 'emotionally expressive' (to say the least :rolleyes:) when trying to explain their symptoms.

Doctors should be more aware of what role their biases play when it comes to factors like gender, race, etc. so as to hopefully become less influenced by those biases.

It hurts to think there are people who think that we, women with distressing symptoms who are looking for help, are responsible for this problem.

If you have some ideas which might explain why doctors may be ignoring the symptoms of female patients, I'd like to hear them.
Before you brought up that women are seen as 'emotionally expressive,' and how that may influence doctors perceptions of them and their symptoms. Seems like a good enough idea to me. There are a lot of stereotypes that have developed over the ages about women being fragile and hysterical.

Can you point me to the studies which demonstrate this inequality?
Are there any studies which demonstrate the lack of inequality?? ;)

I think it would have been better for the journalist to point out that post-COVID syndrome is likely to be viewed as a MUS illness or somatization, and that all MUS illnesses are traditionally largely ignored by doctors. And then focus on the issues of MUS, which are important issues. That would have made a better article.
Perhaps--it is true that post-covid isn't just a women's issue. And men as well as women are in danger of being dismissed by doctors. But I think the particular angle this author was going for was that it certain populations (women, people of color) were more at risk of being dismissed, given past research (three papers were cited within the article to establish this pattern: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0039606012001997, https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/jaha.117.007123, and https://www.physiciansweekly.com/nonwhite-patients-get-less/). I'm not in a position to judge whether that makes for a better article or not, but that's the article she wrote.

I already proposed a possible explanation: that because women suffer hugely higher rates of MUS diseases compared to men, women may unfortunately get a bad image of people who complain when no illness can be found (which is not fair, I agree, because MUS illnesses are real illnesses).
This definitely could also could be an explanation.

I said earlier that it seems feasible to me that women's symptoms might be ignored by doctors; so I am not antagonistic to the idea; but I'd still like to see evidence, in terms of published studies.

And I'd like to hear some explanations of why it is happening.
I don't know what studies are out there. I imagine that this is a topic which has not had much attention paid to it until relatively recently, but I don't know. If you want to learn more about this topic, go for it! But please try not to put the onus on others to find this information. Our brains are foggy, too! :ill: All we can do is share our own stories and our own experiences with you and with each other.

And it sounds like many, many of our stories share similarities. I've been dismissed by doctors as being 'just' depressed. My mother's persistent neurological symptoms were dismissed by doctors for years as stress for several years before she died as a result of a catastrophic neurological event. No, this isn't limited to women--my older brother's recurring GI issues were also dismissed as anxiety for many years before he was discovered to have a rare condition. (to round out the study of my family, my father's medical issues were never questioned but that's because they usually involved large lacerations or broken bones!) But the research cited in the article posted at the beginning of this thread and in subsequent post suggests that women are victims of this more often. Even if that research is incomplete, it's important for doctors to recognize so that they can become better impartial diagnosticians.

For many of us, there is something cathartic about being able to share these traumatic memories with others who have had similar experiences. We're not necessarily trying to dump on doctors, or get sympathy, or complain for the sake of complaining. We just want to be able to talk about what has happened to us, and be heard and understood.
 
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Rufous McKinney

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why is there the assumption that the 'blame' should lie with the patient and not the doctor? A well-trained, skilled diagnostician would not let their judgement be clouded by that kind of perception.

Well said!

I watched a coulpe of episodes of the show about Diagnostics (Netflix)..and after watching that, it suggested that people who want to be doctors did not realize they were supposed to diagnose illnesses and this is not what they trained for (I am paragraphasing from two years ago).

How do your treat anything, without first diagnosing it? This was such a remarkable- disclosure. Assuming it was true.

****

I had an interesting experience that might be pertinent- when my husband became gravely ill. I called the doctors office trying to get him in, he is in severe abdominal pain. (he never goes to the doctor, he never complains, I know something is very wrong).

Doctor calls back. I had met her on one occassion- she tells me I can't possibly have that level of White coat high blood pressure. Oh? Oh yes I can, madam.

So she said- He must be constipated. Call concluded.

I'm perplexed. Dismayed beyond belief. If you had asked a single question, you would not be telling me my husband is constipated. But asked nothing, hears nothing.

One half hour later, their office called back, somebody cancelled, the other doctor saw my husband, acute appendicitis, it had ruptured, he would have been dead by midnight. He was hospitalized for over a week.

In this case, why would you take seriously the woman describing a symptom? To think a grown adult can't be considered capable of knowing the difference between constipated and appendicitis.
 

Mary

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I'm curious, why is there the assumption that the 'blame' should lie with the patient and not the doctor? A well-trained, skilled diagnostician would not let their judgement be clouded by that kind of perception. After all, pediatricians often have to diagnose little kids who tend to be extremely 'emotionally expressive' (to say the least :rolleyes:) when trying to explain their symptoms.
:thumbsup:

Also, IF it's well known or even documented that women tend to be more emotional at the doctor's office than men (which I'm only assuming for the sake of argument here and nothing else), then doctors SHOULD be well aware of this fact and the role it might play in how they treat patients and should act accordingly to try to offset their own biases. (@RebeccaRe , I think I just restated what you said! :whistle:) If this is true, then this topic should be covered in medical schools.

However, it is possible that men are treated just as badly by doctors when they present with symptoms the doctors can't readily identify, though if a doctor is biased at the outset, then they may fail to recognize symptoms in one gender which they would readily recognize in another. I really don't know. I've had 2 doctors (both male) and an NP (female) dismiss my ME/CFS symptoms. Maybe it's an equal opportunity failing! I don't know how these practitioners would have treated men who presented with the same symptoms.

But I would not put the blame on women for a doctor's failure to take them seriously.
 

wabi-sabi

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If there is inequality in the medical treatment that males and females get, then certainly this should be rectified. But we need more evidence it is really happening, and if it is, more understanding of why it is happening. I think it probably is happening; but it needs to be further examined.
Oh, it is definitely happening! One example is documented in the book Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman. She writes about the PTSD battered women experience and how sexist psychologists tried to make this into a new diagnosis- self-defeating personality disorder, as well as tried to blame the women for their husbands' abuse. Does this remind you of "persistent refusal disorder" and we are sick because we let ourselves get out of shape? It does me.

Here is another documentation of a case of a woman's very real medical problem being written off as anxiety which could have been fatal if she didn't finally get a doc to listen:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/...ave-searing-head-pain-and-a-racing-heart.html

I have no doubt that men's stories about long haul COVD ARE being discounted by docs as "anxiety". But that doesn't change the fact that being dismissed as a head case is the primary way that sexism shows up in medicine. It includes those of us with ME/CFS or fibro or long haul COVID. But a woman is in danger from this type of gaslighting anytime she sees a healthcare professional. It's not just about COVID or ME/CFS. It's the pervasive sexism in medicine. I think if you look for it, you will find that it is well documented.
 

Hip

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I'm curious, why is there the assumption that the 'blame' should lie with the patient and not the doctor?

Blame perhaps is not the right word. It carries a connotation of being guilty for something, which is not what I intended. Let's say instead "a source of the problem" could involve the patient's style of explaining things.

We need to identify the sources of these issues, and then see if there is anything to be done to fix them. There are I think going to be multiple sources.

Where a source of the problem lies with the doctors or the medical profession, then this must be recognized. So the medical profession are certainly to blame for their terrible mistake in categorizing MUS illnesses as "all in the mind". I think we all agree on this.

And because MUS diseases are far more common in women, unfortunately in the eyes of some doctors, this may tar all women with the same brush, and make some doctors believe that women's symptoms are often "all in the mind". I hope once MUS diseases are understood to be real biological diseases, this medical bias will cease to exist.



After all, pediatricians often have to diagnose little kids who tend to be extremely 'emotionally expressive' (to say the least :rolleyes:) when trying to explain their symptoms.

That's true, but I imagine for this reason it might be more difficult for a doctor to diagnose a child.

Sure, doctors should be professional enough to deal with adult patients who are very emotional in the way they express themselves; that should be part of a doctor's training.

But it is also in patient's own interests to help the communication process, and get the best out of their doctor. So if the patient can play their role in helping to improve patient-doctor communications, everyone benefits. There are entire books devoted to how patients can get the best out their doctor.



It hurts to think there are people who think that we, women with distressing symptoms who are looking for help, are responsible for this problem.

It's only a tentative idea that a more emotionally-expressive style of communication might hamper patient-doctor communications. I suggested this as a possibly, but could well be wrong. In fact, for all I know, it might even be that having a more emotional disposition helps get better treatment from your doctor. Maybe the emotion helps engage the doctor better. It's possible.

But I was thinking that because of the MUS problem, some doctors may already (erroneously) think that a woman's symptoms have a propensity to being "all in the mind". So we start off on a bad footing.

Then on top of that, if the patient displays strong emotions, and perhaps also anxiety (because anxiety can be biologically caused by some diseases), then maybe that's unfortunately only going to further consolidate the doctor's erroneous view that their patient is histrionic or over-exaggerating her symptoms.

This is certainly not a criticism of emotional expression per se. Although I am quite a logical type, I've always sought out the opposite, and love people and cultures which have strong emotional expression.



I'm not in a position to judge whether that makes for a better article or not, but that's the article she wrote.

The reason I thought it was not a good article is that it made no reference to MUS diseases, and the fact that women suffer from MUS diseases far more than men.

Any casual reader of that article might therefore surmise there is an institutional bias against women patients in the medical profession, for no other reason than they are women. There is an implicit suggestion in the article of medical sexism, or even medical misogyny.

I would suggest that it's the link to MUS diseases which plays a major role in some doctors not taking the symptoms of female patients seriously. Not because doctors somehow don't like women.

Why is it important to point out that MUS is the likely issue, and not the female gender per se? Because if we're are going to address this issue, we have to pin-point the source of the problem. It's no good blaming sexism if the real source of the problem is that MUS diseases are erroneously seen as "all in the mind".



If you want to learn more about this topic, go for it! But please try not to put the onus on others to find this information. Our brains are foggy, too!

Hopefully it's both sides of the discussion that will put in the effort. Side A might say such-and-such is true. Side B might then ask for evidence to support that. Side A may then quote some studies as evidence. Side B may then look at those studies, but find fault in them, and brings up those faults. Side A may then finds some further more reliable studies. And so forth.

Sometimes when you ask for evidence, you are not disagreeing, just playing devil's advocate: you want the other side to engage further, to argue their point further, and provide further evidence. In this way, we get to the truth of the matter via discussion.

You can also do all the research on your own, but it's more sociable and more invigorating to engage with others.



For many of us, there is something cathartic about being able to share these traumatic memories with others who have had similar experiences. We're not necessarily trying to dump on doctors, or get sympathy, or complain for the sake of complaining. We just want to be able to talk about what has happened to us, and be heard and understood.

I appreciate that. And there are quite a few threads on this forum talking about doctors ignoring symptoms, or misdiagnosing patients. And such stories are one of the most common types of medical newspaper article; you know, the sort of "doctor dismissed my headaches as stress, but it turned out to be a serious disease" article. So lots of catharsis to be had!

But this particular thread focuses on a medical bias against taking female symptoms seriously. So I was just trying to verify that claim, and also trying to get to the bottom of what might be causing it.


I don't think individual stories of doctor experiences offer any evidence of a gender bias, by the way. You need a study for that. My own doctor does not even believe I have ME/CFS, even after 14 years with it. I expect he probably thinks I am just avoiding life for psychological reasons. But that story on its own does not mean much. One would have to perform a survey of hundreds of patients and see if doctors treat male and female ME/CFS patients differently.

Though I understand how talking about these experiences can be cathartic.
 
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