Women are relying more on 'Dr Google' than their GP .... I'm, like, totally stunned !!!!

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

And here we are again, with another article on how vastly and shamefully women are underserved, disdained, dismissed, and ignored in our already seriously flawed medical system, whether you’re a man, a woman, a child, or an osprey.

Actually, if you’re an osprey, you stand a better chance. Vets seem more closely attuned to their patients ills and needs, and more determined to address them fully, and with genuine empathy and concern. At least most of them.

Women are relying more on 'Dr Google' than their GP: 'We're not being listened to' …. AUG 14
https://news.yahoo.com/women-dr-google-for-health-advice-gp-170216611.html

I know this may be a controversial opinion (sarcasm emoji here), but I think we deserve at least as much attentive concern as a monitor lizard, fantastic as they may be ...

What do y'all think ????

 

[BrightCandle]

I suspect its becoming increasingly true across all of society. The mask of modern medicine has kind of fallen off especially in the USA and UK.

 

[Hip]

Some 74% rely on family or friends for health information, followed by google search at 71%, and then other online search engines and blogs at 69%.

Well there is an irony. Ever since the general public were armed with the medical information provided by Internet, patients have been claiming that they are smarter than their doctor, and claim that they tell their doctor what's what, in a dismissive fashion which sometimes denigrates the expertise of a doctor.

Well now with all these smart patients telling their doctor how to do their job, guess what, doctors are now letting these knowledgeable patients get on with it.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I suspect its becoming increasingly true across all of society

No, altho it's often dismissed in various ways. That being said I dont disagree with you .... medical care has devloved so badly across the board that it's almost criminal.

It's a very real problem, and there are multiple threads with many, many links to articles in everything from Science Daily to research studies to general interest publications that attest to the fact that women get short shrift, medically. Even from women Drs. In fact, definitely from women Drs ...

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Ever since the general public were armed with the medical information provided by Internet, patients have been claiming that they are smarter than their doctor, and claim that they tell their doctor what's what, in a dismissive fashion which sometimes denigrates the expertise of a doctor.

This is the worst kind of reductive generalization, backed up by absolutely nothing but an opinion.

Maybe it's different where you are, tho I doubt it, but here in the US, it's absolutely endemic.

Women DIE from this. The rate of deaths from heart attacks, cancers, and other NCDs among men and women of approximately the same age are so far out of balance that even the medical profession (and I use that term in its most generous sense) have noticed.

And please dont do your usual, demanding reams of comprobatory links. I haven't got the energy or focus or cognitive ability right now to provide that, but you can do a quick search, just on this site, and find all that, ready and waiting for you.

Well now with all these smart patients telling their doctor how to do their job, guess what, doctors are now letting these knowledgeable patients get on with it.

Oh, @Hip .... that's absolute horse pucky, and you and I have had this conversation before, in a thread that had links to 6 or more articles on this subject, which you dismissed in the same denigrating way.

It's practically gospel that a large percentage of us here on PR go to an expensive, difficult to get to apptment with a new Dr, only to discover that we DO know more about our illness than they do, that they're clueless and worse, unwilling to get a clue. The same is true when approaching our own, non-specialist Drs as well as neurologists and rheumatologists.

 

[Wishful]

This seems to be based on some undisclosed assumptions. I expect that most doctors are quite good with some health problems and terrible with some others. I would trust my GP with some problems and not even bother going to him for others. I would also do my googling about whatever health issue it is and the treatments prescribed.

The treatment of women vs men is a separate issue, and I'm not surprised that there's a bias against equal treatment of women. There's still inequality in the upper levels of influence, and until enough women get into that upper level, the inequality will continue at lower levels. I expect that many of the 'old boys' want to maintain the 'no gurlz' bias so they can maintain their false sense of superiority. It hasn't been that long, less than 100 years, since women were effectively property, and men in power don't like giving up their power, so it's still an ongoing process.

So yes, someday both men and women will be equal in their trusting google over their GP. Victory!

 

[Hip]

This is the worst kind of reductive generalization, backed up by absolutely nothing but an opinion.

It's an opinion yes, but it comes from having an appreciation of human psychology, which is a prerequisite for understanding the doctor-patient relationship.

Until recently, that doctor-patient relationship had been a paternal one (or perhaps a maternal one in the case of a woman doctor). The patient put themselves in the hands of the doctor, much like a child is looked after by a parent. It's an emotional connection.

Of course that paternal approach was greatly criticized in recent decades, and from what I see, that paternal relationship, which was a human emotional relationship, is breaking down, and being replaced by a cold functional doctor-patient arrangement, based purely on exchange of information, like some computer algorithm.

This I believe is directly due to patients educating themselves medically via the Internet, so that they may be more knowledgable in one tiny aspect of medicine, and then tell their doctor what's what, almost ordering the doctor about. You cannot have a paternal relationship when the patient orders the doctor about, or presents themself as an equal to the doctor. That is the cause of the paternal relationship breakdown.

Some patients have been pushing to get rid of this paternal relationship; well now they have got their way. Let's see how they like it. The doctor-patient relationship is now increasingly more like an information-exchange partnership, which means the patient takes on more responsibilities. If you want to be an equal with the doctor, then you have to share the workload. The patient thus has to do their own research.

Of course, this loss of personal relationships has occurred in all sectors of life, with human emotional relationships being replaced by dry informational ones. It's the direct result of the information revolution we have entered into, which has been the greatest disruption to human society since the industrial revolution. Many human relationships are breaking down and being replaced by pure information exchange.

For example, who these days knows their bank manager, and has a personal relationship with them? Nobody: if you want a bank loan these days, you do not go to your acquaintance the bank manager, you are assessed for a loan by an indifferent computer algorithm.

I worked with computers, and I love information technology. But I also see how the information age is fundamentally changing human relationships and society.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Vets seem more closely attuned to their patients ills and needs, and more determined to address them fully, and with genuine empathy and concern.

totally agree.

time and time again we've said: our DOG has better care

when our town Vet died tragically (he got a virus in his brain and you dont want that virus)...there were only 1500 people outside unable to even get near the service.

all these smart patients telling their doctor how to do their job,

It would be helpful for people to actually use basic psychology 101 when operating around other people, one's doctor, included. They worked really hard. They studied alot. They earned some respect. They made them not sleep.

To come at your doctor with some awareness, and to treat THEM with a bit of respect or what have you which they mostly likely have earned, sounds like a better approach.

I know I hurt my doctors feelings. Because we mostly just talk and then one day he is coming at me with a big needle and I literally said: Do You actually know how to do that?

Opps.

I was extra complementary, after. To make up for my sort of embarrassing awkward remark.

My recent dental appointment, I complimented the dentist. I was sincere, but it was also rather clever of me. And it shifted the energy in a good way. It felt more collaborative. Not paternalist.

 

[Hip]

To come at your doctor with some awareness, and to treat THEM with a bit of respect or what have you which they mostly likely have earned, sounds like a better approach.

Yes, I once read an article written by a doctor (this was about 20 years ago), explaining how to get the best out of your doctor. It was all about using psychology to get the best service.

He explained that most doctors naturally like to feel as if they are the clever one; so if the patient makes the doctor feel he does not know very much, that is not going to go down well, and you then may not get the attention you want.

He said that even if a patient is sure of their own diagnosis, it is better just to describe their symptoms to the doctor, and let the doctor come to that same diagnosis (so that they feel smart), rather arrive in the doctors office with your own diagnosis already in hand.

If after describing your symptoms, and the doctor still does not mention that diagnosis, you can then suggest it to him or her, saying "do you think I might possibly have X?"

In other words, some old fashioned tactfulness often goes down well. Of course it can be hard to play this psychological approach when you are very ill and have an unbalanced mental health, as many ME/CFS patients suffer with.



But in any case, I think the paternalistic model of medical care is breaking down, and the new generation of doctors have a different aura and approach. As all the GPs in my local surgery have retired and been replaced with young doctors, the paternalistic aura seems to ha ve disappeared.

One family member who uses the same surgery as me has commented that the doctors have been replaced by machines, referring to this disappearance of the emotion of paternal care.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

It was all about using psychology to get the best service.

Its also basic kindergarten 101. Treat others as you wish to be treated. and some of those basic concepts.

My doctor was so excited he diagnosed my condition (as SEID, without even reading out loud the criteria). Mostly nothing else was "excluded".

So how will I handle this?

My dentist diagnosed me with Sjorgrens. I intend to let my doctor know that, along with letting him know that actually I probably have the whole list. We've only gotten as far as: wouldn't an MRI be nice?

I assume my doctor will be fine with it, then he likely will tell me to go to whomever is the specialist for that, which I do not know who that is, as the eye doctors refused to help me.

I cannot get my eye problems diagnosed and I don't understand why.

After we left, my husband whom I Brought with for moral support, did say well that eye doctor didn't run you thru any tests.

And I said: so why did you not say anything about that, as I sat there being dismissed.

Bringing my husband results in no benefit, he flunks Patient Advocacy, and isn't Nurse Jackie, either.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

This I believe is directly due to patients educating themselves medically via the Internet, so that they may be more knowledgable in one tiny aspect of medicine, and then tell their doctor what's what, almost ordering the doctor about. You cannot have a paternal relationship when the patient orders the doctor about, or presents themself as an equal to the doctor. That is the cause of the paternal relationship breakdown.

I was thinking about this for the last hour. @Hip -You mischief maker!

This is likely true for patients, generally. I realize the thread and story is about females.

My sense is men are more likely to do this Dr. Google stuff. And around here, generally MEN get more involved in the nitty gritty details of cures and experiments and trials and n=1.

My sense is females do less of this.

With exceptions, everywhere.

I do let doctors know at some point or another, that Im a scientist with advanced degrees. I might have taught one of them in a class. So there.

Generally, male doctors treat me respectfully when they know that. I had the most trouble with female doctors so thats yet another very strange thing.

 

[Hip]

My dentist diagnosed me with Sjorgrens.

I think medical professionals usually are happy to hear and respond to the diagnoses of another medical professional, so there should be no problem letting your doctor know what your dentist thinks.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

there should be no problem letting your doctor know what your dentist thinks.

I agree.

However, dentists don't "do" the formal diagnoses or treat it.

I'm actually quite curious how something like that is received?

Would my insurer immediately cover "treatments for Sjogrens"....when there is no "test" in a file?

 

[Rvanson]

Yeah, my new doctor is already speaking of Statins. I have been there and done that with another doctor many years ago. Statins make my ME/CFS worse, with sudden diarrhea as an embarrassing example. That, and all you have to do is visit www.spacedoc.com to find out what statins can do to normal people. Want a TIA?

Even if they extended life, which they don't, I would not want to use them as I don't want to extend my misery and loneliness, since I know when this vessel I live in is mortal, but my soul is not.

Going to have to give her das boot, as I don't like repeating mistakes at my age. Hate to say it, but male doctors have left me alone IRT Statins once I make it clear it is NOT going to ever happen again.

 

[Treeman]

My experience is it took 27 years to get a diagnosis from a GP. They kept telling me there's nothing wrong with me.

Now, I'm lucky to get 10 minutes of attention from a GP who's stress levels are through the roof and are clock watching and distracted. I have to fill in an online form to actually be considered for a face to face evaluation. Recently it took 3 attempts over 6 weeks just to get a phone call about an issue.

I actually think GP's are now amongst some of the least intelligent people in society, and that's why internet searches are more helpfully.

 

[Hip]

And please dont do your usual, demanding reams of comprobatory links. I haven't got the energy or focus or cognitive ability right now to provide that, but you can do a quick search, just on this site, and find all that, ready and waiting for you.

I've been searching for objective evidence to support your argument:

But in 2016, the Brain Tumour Charity released a report on the treatment of brain tumour patients in the United Kingdom. It found that almost one in three of them had visited a doctor more than five times before receiving their diagnosis. Nearly a quarter weren’t diagnosed for more than a year.

Women, as well as low-income patients, experienced longer delays. They were more likely than men to see 10 or more months pass between their first visit to a doctor and diagnosis –and to have made more than five visits to a doctor prior to diagnosis.

Brain tumours are only one example. A 2015 study revealed a longer lag time from the onset of symptoms to diagnosis in female patients in six out of 11 types of cancer. It isn’t that women wait longer to seek medical attention – the delay occurs after they’ve first visited their GP. A 2013 study concluded that more than twice as many women as men had to make more than three visits to a primary care doctor in the UK before getting referred to a specialist for suspected bladder cancer. So did nearly twice as many with renal cancer.

Source: 'Everybody was telling me there was nothing wrong'



Here are two complaints about unfair treatment regarding pain killers (although in some sense they are a little contradictory):

What we do know is that when it comes to pain, men and women are treated differently. One study, for example, found that women in the emergency department who report having acute pain are less likely to be given opioid painkillers (the most effective type) than men. After they are prescribed, women wait longer to receive them.

Source: Pain bias: The health inequality rarely discussed

Dozens of women got in touch with the Guardian to say they feel ‘fobbed off’ with painkillers.

Kelly says she was constantly given powerful prescription opiates as opposed to a diagnosis.

“Doctors are so happy to hand out painkillers and that is frightening really,” she says.

Source: ‘I was told to live with it’: women tell of doctors dismissing their pain



This article is interesting as it tries to understand why women might be taken less seriously than men, and suggests that people try to quantify the symptoms, in order to get better attention:

It’s a well-known fact that men and women tend to express pain, whether physical or psychological, in different ways. They’re also treated differently because of it.

Evidence shows women are often deemed “overly dramatic” and dismissed by medical professionals, which has deadly consequences.

...

“Stating your concerns in quantifiable terms can help you convey the seriousness of your concern,” Brighten continued. “For example, rather than saying that you are concerned you’re waking a lot to use the bathroom at night, you can record how often that is and say to your doctor, ‘I wake six to eight times at night to use the bathroom and I am concerned.’”

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Here is some data from the U.S./ posted at the Veterans Affairs.....

https://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/news/feature/gender_differences.cfm

This is interesting...basically women are more likely to go to the doctor and seek care in the first place. Most of us who are married, know our male spouses are far more reluctant to go to doctors.

Meanwhile because women have babies, and are told to get Pap tests and mammograms all at high frequency.....we probably do see doctors more frequently.

EXCERPT:

Men and women have different health and healthcare concerns, illustrated by results of the 2013 Kaiser Men's Health Survey and Women's Health Survey of a nationally representative sample of men and women ages 18 to 64. Findings show that 68% of men compared to 81% of women identified a clinician they see for routine care, and women were more likely than men to have seen a provider in the past two years (91% vs. 75%). Men and women reported fair and poor health at similar rates (17% vs. 15%); however, significantly more women reported having an ongoing condition that requires regular monitoring (43% vs. 30%), and more women than men (26% vs. 20%) reported having to delay or forgo care in the past year due to cost.1

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I have strong feelings about this subject based on actual, personal experience, as well as the multiple reports in everything from The Scientist to NIH studies, so in the interests of keeping the focus on the issue expressed in this thread (and the approximately dozen other articles I've posted in other threads on women and the quality of their medical care), and not on the various counter arguments intending to disprove that the treatment of women by the medical community is, shall we say, substandard and all the women's own fault anyway, I'm going to refrain from promoting more argumentative back-and-forthing.

I also highly recommend Dr. Jerome Groopman's book, How Doctors Think. It's revelatory ....

EDIT .... for clarity and a couple of typos ...

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Yeah, my new doctor is already speaking of Statins. I have been there and done that with another doctor many years ago. Statins make my ME/CFS worse, with sudden diarrhea as an embarrassing example. That, and all you have to do is visit www.spacedoc.com to find out what statins can do to normal people. Want a TIA?

My hub DB and I are fighting the same battle. He doesn't have ME but the statins absolutely destroy him, and nothing he can say to his Drs has any flucking effect at all ....

Thank you for that link, RV . Maybe taking it to his phalanx of providers can make a difference.

Yeah, As if.

 

[Rvanson]

My hub DB and I are fighting the same battle. He doesn't have ME but the statins absolutely destroy him, and nothing he can say to his Drs has any flucking effect at all ....

Thank you for that link, RV . Maybe taking it to his phalanx of providers can make a difference.

Yeah, As if.

Glad I could help you, YippeeKi YOW !!

I have little respect for most GP's, so I can blow them off like chaff. I know lots about what they know, and I know that it isn't much. Lots of cancer patients could be saved if their GP's caught had it sooner. Finding an independent GP is difficult these days. They all seem to be hooked up with some major hospital chain. It's been 7 years since my last colonoscopy, for instance, and they did find a polyp, non-cancerous, unfortunately.

I want' off this madhouse, crazy planet, and catching a fatal disease will work just fine. My soul will be able to be whole again, once more, so I'll not be having any more colonoscopies ever. Got the medications to kill the pain, so I'm good to go, since those M-Fers' will withhold pain medicine, if you don't go along with them and their corporate money-making plans. I am tired of it all, after 26 years living with ME/CFS, and the loneliness.