White Tongue Discoloration

[Rufous McKinney]

Curious if folks here have issues with vertebrae "popping" easily. I think I don't even understand what this is, when things pop. Two Physical Therapists on You Tube acted like Pop your neck is OK.
I've now got some weird neck thing and like 9 vertebrae on one side go CRUNCH RIP POP, generally freaking me out. so I'm now not allowed to bend my neck, applying magnets, and prayer. . Could this be: a collagen thing? I'm dethawing the bone broth as we speak.

 

[Hip]

I've spent the last two hours reading scientific studies demonstrating they are confirming the presence of a Primo Vascular System, affiliated with the meridian and acupuncture point system.

This article says about the the primo vascular system (PVS):

More than half a century has elapsed since these structures were first described. After all this time, they have not been accepted by mainstream anatomists. They have not found their way into textbooks and are not being taught in medical schools.

Keep in mind that scientists have been using electron microscopes for decades now, and if these structures existed in all animals and even plants, they would have been hard for electron microscopists to miss.

Other researchers not connected to the group in South Korea have been unable to detect the PVS. Its existence is highly questionable

Even if the PVS were accepted by mainstream science, that would not mean its structures were acupuncture meridians and acupoints. In fact, the structures are reported to be ubiquitous, not limited to traditional meridian locations.

So there is no map of the primo vascular system (PVS) which supposedly corresponds to a map acupuncture meridians. The existence of the PVS is questionable, even 50 years after its supposed discovery, and even if it does exist, there is nothing to suggest it maps onto diagrams showing meridians.


But even if we assume a PVS exists, and even if it did have some relation with meridians (which there's no evidence for), even if that were hypothetically true, by no feat of logic can one suddenly jump to the conclusion that tongue maps exist.

In fact, a quick look at the history of Chinese tongue diagnosis in this paper indicates that Chinese tongue diagnosis has no relation to acupuncture. These appear unconnected areas of TCM with separate historical developments

 

[Rufous McKinney]

thats fine: I don't get needles in the tongue, as that is impractical now, isn't it?

Further discourse here is serving little purpose. I will return to protocols that help me, and in western medical terms: that has been pretty much zero nothing. You can return to whatever is helping you. I promised to share what helped me. Thats all.

 

[Hip]

I should add that I am not suggesting herbal treatments (whether Chinese, European, Indian) have no use; I've found lots of herbs beneficial. Spanish saffron for example is my go-to herb to treat depression (it's been shown in several studies to be as effective as pharmaceutical antidepressants). I also use some of the safer antidepressant drugs.

But just because I get benefit from a herb, I don't accept without questioning all historical aspects of herbalism or other traditional medical systems. Just as I will not accept without questioning the safety or efficacy of a pharmaceutical drug, whose problematic side effects may only come to light decades after first introduced.

In Europe, disease was traditionary thought to be caused by an imbalance of the four humors. It's interesting to read about these quaint ideas, but I don't think anyone would suggest that the four humor theory of disease has any real validity.

 

[sb4]

So we agree that it's hard to see what purpose such an organ map would have; it's hard to see from the from an evolutionary perspective what useful function it would have.

We don't agree on this point. I don't know what function it could have but that means pretty much nothing as I know very little about how the human body works as it is very complex and science still has much to learn about it.

And if you look at the origin of iridology, you find it was concocted by a Hungarian in 1893. And he did not base it on any studies either. He just arbitrarily divided up to the iris into different regions, and randomly allocated and organ to each region.

Perhaps this is true for iridology but I had not really heard of it until you brought it up in this thread. I am fairly sure that traditional chinese medicine has mapped certain meridians to certain parts of the foot/ear/tongue. So if we do assume the meridians exist, then it follows that TCM has got them mapped out correctly as they have been banging on about them for 1000's of years.

A lot of if's there but if we assume all are true then I think it is more likely than not that you could say manipulate a meridian in the foot and cause a change in the liver.

 

[Hip]

A lot of if's there but if we assume all are true then I think it is more likely than not that you could say manipulate a meridian in the foot and cause a change in the liver.

I'd be interested in seeing any studies you can find that demonstrate acupuncture manipulation of a particular meridian consistently causes measurable changes in an associated organ. I doubt any such demonstration exists.

 

[sb4]

I'd be interested in seeing any studies you can find that demonstrate acupuncture manipulation of a particular meridian consistently causes measurable changes in an associated organ. I doubt any such demonstration exists.

I also doubt these studies exist, maybe some do in chinese / japanese but I'm too lazy to go looking.

 

[wonderoushope]

I had a really white tongue when I was at my worst. It has got better. I think for me the key was getting my gut bacteria back on track. Lots of low fodmap vegetables seemed to be the key for me. My dietician has suggested at least 3 servings a day (3 cups).

As I mentioned earlier (up above) my mouth swab test came back negative for candida.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I was provided a Chinese herbal formula of four herbs for IBS-d, and experienced major improvement in 24 hours, which continues on now, about six weeks later. So this amazed me. Pain bloating running thru too fast all stopped.

I find it interesting that has not resulted in noticeable improvements in my other ME/CFS symptoms, but maybe I need more time. Clearly I must be better able to absorb nutrients from the food, if nothing else. Its blown my mind that I did not have go go find new creatures to occupy my gut to generate this shift. The good gut creatures reported to be lacking in us, don't seem to exist in Probiotic pills.

 

[Hip]

I was provided a Chinese herbal formula of four herbs for IBS-d, and experienced major improvement in 24 hours, which continues on now, about six weeks later.

Do you mean the improvements continue while you keep taking the formula, or do you mean the improvements remained even after stopping? Do you know what herbs are in the formula?

What works very well for my IBS-D is peppermint oil capsules. The menthol in peppermint oil has an antispasmodic action (inhibits smooth muscle contractions).

Another thing that helped a lot:
IBS much improved after removing CHLORAMINE from my tap drinking water (not the same as chlorine)

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I take the herbs generally twice a day, as tea, after my main meals. So I continue to take it daily. I also continue to view food with suspicion. Since I don't formulate my own concoctions and work with a trained Chinese herbalist, I don't inquire about what specific herbs they are. Each body is unique. Herbs vary in their "approach" and that depends on other factors in the body in question.

 

[Hip]

Each body is unique. Herbs vary in their "approach" and that depends on other factors in the body in question.

Are you sure that's not just the Chinese herbalists creating that mystique in order to protect their business?

You had a similar thing in European herbalism, which was kept secret from the general public to protect the business interests of the physicians of the day. It was only after Culpepper's famous herbal book that the poor masses got access to herbal medical info, and then people realized they could make their own herbal formulas by gathering the right plants, and so were thereafter not dependent on expensive doctors.

 

[Hufsamor]

I'd be interested in seeing any studies you can find that demonstrate acupuncture manipulation of a particular meridian consistently causes measurable changes in an associated organ. I doubt any such demonstration exists.

I believe that's impossible.
I read a new paper today, acupuncture is proven helpful (against menopausal problems, Danish research)

BUT...they said problem with research about acupuncture is that it's almost impossible to get a placebo group, as you can't placebo acupuncture.

-and measurable changes, ?
What would you measure?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

And we are all unique beings with so many variables at play!......

 

[Rufous McKinney]

European herbalism, which was kept secret

I have to admire the amount of study and training necessary to deploy Chinese Traditional Herbal Medicine. So self application as we do with herbs in the west is a failure to recognize the subtle power and complexity of these herbs. My husband will throw down anything, has no system, and to me this is dangerous and foolish. The herbs I take are also actually tested for contaminants, and most western herbs are not.

So this article I just found is a very good overview, I will send a link: on Chinese treatment of IBS, which this thread started with tongue coatings but lead to: our guts.

For instance: "According to the symptoms assessment in TCM, patients might be diagnosed to have the nature of “cold” or “heat”, and whether this nature is “in deficiency” or “in excess”. The syndrome differentiation can then effectively guide the clinical treatment of the individuals with TCM[19]. Chinese herbal medicines can then be prescribed for different individuals based on the differentiation of symptoms according to traditional Chinese medicine diagnostic patterns. Hence, using Chinese herbal medicine is a strategy that provides the patient with individualized and comprehensive treatments[19]."

This is not: one sizes fits all medicine.

Will send link to this.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Are you sure that's not just the Chinese herbalists creating that mystique in order to protect their business?

If I want to know what Chinese herbs I was prescribed, all I have to do is ask. So its not secret.

Here: this Review article is very good and includes specifics on some CTM formulas that have been studied. I think this article is good at summarizing how they have integrated their Eastern and Western medical systems: this is what I seek: to see these systems integrated, to complement one another.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342906/

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Are you sure that's not just the Chinese herbalists creating that mystique in order to protect their business?

You had a similar thing in European herbalism, which was kept secret from the general public to protect the business interests of the physicians of the day. It was only after Culpepper's famous herbal book that the poor masses got access to herbal medical info, and then people realized they could make their own herbal formulas by gathering the right plants, and so were thereafter not dependent on expensive doctors.

Here is a description of Four Herbs: these are the four I am taking and they are wonderful. You can still have an adverse event, like when stressed out.

"When unified in a formula, herbs share the responsibility of the intended treatment goal. One of the formulas that is used to treat IBS includes a base of four herbs: bai shao (white peony), bai zhu (white atractylodes), chen pi (citrus peel) and fang feng (siler). TCM pathology uses terminology that sounds unfamiliar to western medical concepts, however it is simply a different way of explaining the same action of the compound. The purpose of each herb in the formula is defined by it’s own individual actions and plays a part in the general purpose of the formula. For example, white peony is an herb that ‘soothes the liver,’ in other words it relieves stress. To take one herb alone for IBS would be inadequate so there is the addition of the others. White atractylodes has the action of ‘tonifying the spleen,’ in other words it helps nutrients to absorb in the small intestine. Citrus peel supports the digestive function by ‘transforming dampness,’ in other words it reduces abdominal bloating. And lastly, siler has the function of ‘expelling wind,’ in other words, it relieves diarrhea."

Note the terminology above is in reference to the Qi. Liver Qi, Spleen Qi..not those organs per se.

I will just mention that I got odd headaches during the day for about the first week. They have subsided. More slog moved, apparently.

oh: I better go hurry and have some more tea!!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Science is building, growing on this issue.

Greetings, I wanted to update this topic with some new info just published in Nature, regarding updates to the World Health Organization guidelines: Chinese Traditional Medicine being included providing some opportunity to expand and team up with our other western protocols!!

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06782-7