White Tongue Discoloration

[Rufous McKinney]

I'd have to disagree with this. I don't think it's impossible that if you had a problem in your liver that it could show on a certain place on your tongue with regards to acupuncture meridians. Obviously I'm not saying you can just look at the tongue and solve everything, but I would guess that you can derive some useful information from it.

Thank you for acknowledging 2000 years of Chinese Traditional Medicine. 100's of books on interpretation of physical expression through the tongue.

My lower back was healed from an injury/strain, via working on my feet with acupressure, done by an expert. So sorry, to those of you who only seek out western medicine.
And I've experienced remarkable cures, complete disappearance of symptoms, based upon tongue reading and expert Chinese medicine. I go there first, always.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Sure, you can derive useful medical information from the tongue, as there are tongue symptoms that indicate various medical conditions.

I was referring to this idea that the tongue contains a map of the entire body system, which is an old Chinese medicine idea. You also find this idea in reflexology, that the soles of the feet are a map of the entire body and its organs. There is absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever.

Yes the Feet, also. Ears, also. My own evidence works fine for me, thank you. These Chinese protocols have helped me tremendously, but its NOT a cure for ME. Its a tool in the tool box. One of the few tools I have.

 

[Hip]

I don't think western medicine has given it sufficient chance as it doesn't fit with the current understanding of the body.

There have been a huge number of scientific studies into acupuncture: if you search PubMed for studies which contain the word acupuncture in the title, it finds nearly 14,000 papers.

And Chinese scientists in particular are often interested in researching TCM. So these areas have been examined by researchers.

I found this article looking into the scientific evidence for iridology (the idea that the iris contains a map of the body organs). Iridology generally failed to detect which patients were diseased and which were healthy.

 

[sb4]

@Rufous McKinney What did the specialist do with regards to acupressure?

 

[sb4]

@Hip I would assume some of those papers would have found positive effects, no?

As for my own experience, I had acupuncture through the NHS where I felt nothing but before privately where it had a very significant effect in relaxing me which I wasn't able to achieve with meditation, or anything really. This turned out to be bad though as I suspect my body keeps me in a stressed state (adrenaline) to keep my POTS at bay and after this session I felt like my heart was going to explode waiting for the bus. Anyways, in my experience it definitely did something as I don't think I would achieve that sort of relaxation going to a new place and having someone stick pins in my at a time where my symptoms where progressing to there most servere. I don't think placebo either as I was doubtful it would do anything at all.

I will ask you if you thought the article I posted seems legit? It does to me, though you are probably better at determining these things. If it is, do you not think the meridians that connect to certain organs could some how "communicate" that, that organ is not functioning sufficiently?

 

[Hip]

@Hip I would assume some of those papers would have found positive effects, no?

Yes, I believe there are studies showing acupuncture has some mild benefits for certain conditions.

I will ask you if you thought the article I posted seems legit? It does to me, though you are probably better at determining these things. If it is, do you not think the meridians that connect to certain organs could some how "communicate" that, that organ is not functioning sufficiently?

I had a quick look, and it seems legit, but have not got time at the moment to fully investigate that meridians study. But even if it turns out that meridians do exist and can be detected, that on its own does not imply that there are organ maps at various places of the body.

The body also has a several nervous systems which connect distant organs, and these systems we know a lot about. But again it does not follow from the existence of these nervous systems that there are organ maps.

Although you do have situations where something amiss in one part of the body will manifest in another part. For example, people having a heart attack will often experience intense pain in the neck, jaws and arms, as well as in the chest. This is because the pain signals from the heart, neck, jaws and arms converge on the same neurons in the spinal cord, so you get some nerve signal cross-talk, and then the pain appears to come from non-heart locations such as the heart.

 

[sb4]

But even if it turns out that meridians do exist and can be detected, that on its own does not imply that there are organ maps at various places of the body.

It doesn't automatically imply that but it adds weight to it's possibility. If the Chinese have been treating people based on meridians that we have only just discovered for 1000's of years, then it would be safe to assume they have mapped the meridians correctly (ie liver goes to bottom right of tongue, or whatever). And if they are mapped correctly then it's entirely possible that using the right instrument/technique you can detect unhealthy signals from these meridians and that could correspond to an unhealthy organ it is attached to.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

@Rufous McKinney What did the specialist do with regards to acupressure?

1) my lower back was strained from monitoring plots in a grassland, and became : like paralyzed, sciatica, could not walk for two years. I find this local eccentric person who is trained in Acupuncture in China, Chiropractic here, and he worked on my feet mostly. No needles. Just hands. Two weeks later, four treatments- I was able to walk again and it went away. I saw an Anthony Bourdain show when he is in Malaysia, and that person did the same treatment on his feet: they work outward towards the tip of your toes with this twisting pattern using their thumb, working a channel, and the energy clogs leave out the toes.
2) Ok, so somebody will say a) placebo or b) your back was gonna get better anyway, just a coincidence. Well: NO. So I got conjuctivitus. I'd had that before, and gotten rid of it with goldenseal and boric acid But this wouldn't leave, white blood cells are forming on my eyeball and spilling out. I had already scheduled an appointment for the back. I ask if he can help my eye. He got out electrodes, and put two on, one on the base of my thumb, the other on my arm. I stay there for 1/2 an hour.
It was ENTIRELY GONE, no redness, no white blood cells. Just gone. No placebo effect here. This blew my mind at the time, and I was now convinced: wow this is a great protocol, what is wrong with the west.
3) so I had to move and lost access to that person. But now I have a great EXPERT on Chinese herbs and they are very hard to find: the art of the herbs and diagnosis are disappearing, as it requires massive TRAINING, dedication and alot of $ to stock the herbs. Like 2000 of them.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

It doesn't automatically imply that but it adds weight to it's possibility. If the Chinese have been treating people based on meridians that we have only just discovered for 1000's of years, then it would be safe to assume they have mapped the meridians correctly (ie liver goes to bottom right of tongue, or whatever). And if they are mapped correctly then it's entirely possible that using the right instrument/technique you can detect unhealthy signals from these meridians and that could correspond to an unhealthy organ it is attached to.

These herbs (actually at least 6000) were developed for use through a system of Trial, Error and Observation, has a very long history, and a "new" Chinese herb might be one they encountered in 800 AD (Hi, King Alfred, your belly ache might have improved, if you'd known (he's my Grandpa BTW)). when they say Kidney Qi, they don't mean "kidneys". BTW: in the Last Kingdom, King Alfred's continuous belly ache (maybe Crohns) was NOT remedied by his pious diet of oat gruel, apples and milk. Poor him. Belly aches across history.

 

[sb4]

@Rufous McKinney Thats interesting and I don't think it's placebo either. I should imagine it is quite hard to find someone who is sufficiently trained though. Part of the reason I am working on posture right now is to hopefully "free up" any squashed meridians but mainy for cervial spine reasons.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Good luck sb4! I've some exposure to Tai Chi, and these postures and maneuvers are also very helpful. Spine feeling pretty squashed, here!
Apparently far more people get acupuncture degrees but aren't learning the herbs. We are: lazy. The herbs are the best route, for chronic long term improvement.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Yes I was also referring to it and I don't think there be no evidence for it currently means the idea is bunk. I know I am less than an amateur when it comes to this sort of thing but I have a "hunch" that it's true, partly based on peoples opinions I have come to trust and that I don't think western medicine has given it sufficient chance as it doesn't fit with the current understanding of the body.

I read about this https://upliftconnect.com/science-proves-meridians-exist/ a while back and if the meridians are there and they do flow from corresponding organs to places on the feet / tongue then I don't think it's a stretch that if the liver is having problems then this can be somehow "transmitted" through the meridians to the tongue.

I just read thru that quickly, exciting to read, will discuss with my Practitioner. We need to find the source research, but generally: the article seems to confirm that which I ALREADY KNOW : due to my own direct experience.

I'v e considered blogging on the topic of: the laws of physics are suspended. Clearly our bodies are quantum also? Both a particle and a wave? I've lived a life. I know we are energetic beings. I had the privilege, in college, of meeting Hong Kong's Chinese Tai Chi master. These energetics are real.

 

[Hip]

It doesn't automatically imply that but it adds weight to it's possibility.

I don't see the existence of organ maps on your hands, feet, tongue and iris as being even remotely likely.

When you talk of an organ map in your iris say, this implies there must be an informational pathway running from the various organ in your body to the iris. In other words, some sort of wiring system that runs from each organ to the iris.

There are many informational pathways in the body — nerve pathways and hormones and other signaling molecules — which connect remote parts of the body by means of informational signals. But where these pathways exist, there is a purpose for them. For example, the vagus nerve pathway running from brain to heart helps regulate heart rate; that's one of its purposes.

But for what purpose would there be organ maps on your hand, feet, tongue and iris? There's no clear purpose, so there is no reason to have evolved such pathways and maps.

 

[sb4]

But where these pathways exist, there is a purpose for them. For example, the vagus nerve pathway running from brain to heart helps regulate heart rate; that's one of its purposes.

But for what purpose would there be organ maps on your hand, feet, tongue and iris? There's no clear purpose, so there is no reason to have evolved such pathways and maps.

Well if meridians do exist as proposed in that study, then they must too have a purpose, no? It's just that our current science doesn't know that purpose / or acknowledge it exists.

I don't think the purpose of the meridians would be to display a map to the feet, etc, but this could easily be a side effect. I have no good idea what there purpose would be but some would say it's a way to give "energy" or information to different areas of the body, again I have no idea how this would work.

 

[Hufsamor]

I don't think the purpose of the meridians would be to display a map to the feet, etc, but this could easily be a side effect. I

In many countries, people used to walk barefoot most of the year.
So maybe the idea is to give your inner self a little massage?
Both through your hands and your feet?

I know acupuncture does work.
But not always, and not against everything.
And you really need a skilled acupuncturist.

This is a bit difficult in English, but:

When I'm laying on my acupuncturist bench
he's sometimes searching with his needle along a meridian.
He doesn't touch the skin with the needle, he's right above.
When he comes to the point I need to get treated ,
it feels like he's pinning (?) the needle, I jump and screams a bit,
(Everybody says acupuncture is completely painless, that's not my experience.
But I might be a little rabbit )

I asked him once, why it sometimes hurt so much, even before he stings(?)
(I've been watching, he doesn't touch my skin , it only feels that way)
And he answered that the point that needs treatment gives an "electric signal"
and you might even measure it if you have the right equipment.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

In many countries, people used to walk barefoot most of the year.
So maybe the idea is to give your inner self a little massage?
Both through your hands and your feet?

I know acupuncture does work.
But not always, and not against everything.
And you really need a skilled acupuncturist.

This is a bit difficult in English, but:

When I'm laying on my acupuncturist bench
he's sometimes searching with his needle along a meridian.
He doesn't touch the skin with the needle, he's right above.
When he comes to the point I need to get treated ,
it feels like he's pinning (?) the needle, I jump and screams a bit,
(Everybody says acupuncture is completely painless, that's not my experience.
But I might be a little rabbit )

I asked him once, why it sometimes hurt so much, even before he stings(?)
(I've been watching, he doesn't touch my skin , it only feels that way)
And he answered that the point that needs treatment gives an "electric signal"
and you might even measure it if you have the right equipment.

Yes: when a point is particularly congested, it can hurt a bit but its tolerable, stops quickly usually. I had a very bizarre reaction to a needle placed in the top of my forehead- the acupuncturist had never seen that happen before: I avoid this point now, assuming it just too intense for me to handle sending that much energy thru this location. I can only handle very short treatments and few needles as it MOVES and releases stuff this ME body has to then process and eliminate. So I have to go VERY slow and I would make note of that to others.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

"Map" was a term I used, lets not beat that horse to death: its not a literal map. Perhaps correspondence is a better term.

 

[Hip]

"Map" was a term I used, lets not beat that horse to death: its not a literal map. Perhaps correspondence is a better term.

Yes, that's the connotation I have of the term "map", a correspondence between two areas.

I have no good idea what there purpose would be but some would say it's a way to give "energy" or information to different areas of the body, again I have no idea how this would work.

So we agree that it's hard to see what purpose such an organ map would have; it's hard to see from the from an evolutionary perspective what useful function it would have.

Then we also know that studies which have tried to find a mapping between for example the iris and the body organs have failed to detect any relationship.

And if you look at the origin of iridology, you find it was concocted by a Hungarian in 1893. And he did not base it on any studies either. He just arbitrarily divided up to the iris into different regions, and randomly allocated an organ to each region.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

ah, no I don't agree, and thats fine. I've spent the last two hours reading scientific studies demonstrating they are confirming the presence of a Primo Vascular System, affiliated with the meridian and acupuncture point system. And it has great purpose. Iridology is NOT what I was discussing in Chinese Traditional Medicine.
It is also making even more sense go me now, as its CORRESPONDENCE includes a system outside of blood and lymph, which can be stained with Tryptan blue. Saw numerous examples of that in photographs in the published science. So I will continue to seek help there, and its interacting with COLLAGEN!! AHA, a connection with ME. I'm focused on finding: collagen and oxygen. I think these are key ingredients altered in our bodies.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

It's just that our current science doesn't know that purpose / or acknowledge it exists.

. Science is building, growing on this issue.

The things we feel, the way we often describe it: in a fog, under a blanket, suffocating, thick, stagnant. All this can describe a liquid thats not flowing well. And for some of us, our Qi is not flowing well. And so through science, they are finding what comprises the Primo Vascular System, the CTM system of meridians and acupuncture points and correspondences throughout the body.